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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2083
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:01:00 -
[151] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Why did we threaten Gallente Prime with destruction? Because it was the only way of keeping it.
No, it's because Tibus Heth was not interested in diplomatic negotiations after reclaiming Home, and for whatever reason, decided that taking the Gallente homeworld hostage was somehow a better long term solution. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
142
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:12:00 -
[152] - Quote
What a different tune we'd be singing if Admiral Yanala carried out her destructive orders on your home planet. Obviously she did not but I don't think the most recent occupation and following battle are the best examples of morality among the Caldari. At least I hope they aren't good examples...
-Eran |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1760
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:34:00 -
[153] - Quote
At least they contain good examples within them - Heth's for seizing the initiative and making a solution possible and Yanala's for not following an illegal and immoral order.
Where are the good examples on the Gallente side of the line? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1760
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:39:00 -
[154] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Why did we threaten Gallente Prime with destruction? Because it was the only way of keeping it.
No, it's because Tibus Heth was not interested in diplomatic negotiations after reclaiming Home, and for whatever reason, decided that taking the Gallente homeworld hostage was somehow a better long term solution.
Perhaps in the long term - failing to capitalise on the de facto recovery of Home was one of Tibus Heth's most marked failures of leadership, but I believe that the threatening of Gallente Prime was initially supposed to be a short-term move designed to prevent the Gallente counter-attack , which it managed for five years, and to make it prohibitively expensive which... well... clearly not prohibitively, but it DID make Operation Highlander a very phyrric victory. |
Vikarion
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
646
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 03:00:00 -
[155] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote: You do realize that the identity of the death squads in Black Rise have never been confirmed right? The only identifying feature is Gallente equipment. Considering that "special" or independent groups often use equipment that doesn't necessarily match their country of origin, this is something difficult to go by.
Is that how you support the Federal government and sleep at night? Actually their identity has been VERY much proven. The Federal Navy has admitted that several of the atrocities were carried out by what they describe as 'former units, now rogue'. I suppose we should take their word for it? Fredfredbug4 wrote:That seems to be a lesson you only learned recently. If invading Luminaire for the sole purpose of taking Caldari Prime and threatening Gallente Prime with total annihilation isn't an act of vengeance then I have no idea what is. Our reclaiming of our HOMEWORLD is an act of vengeance against the Federation? Do you realise what you sound like? How you can make any sort of argument in that vein when the only way the State has ever managed to force the Gallente to compromise has been naked force I don't know! Why did we 'invade' Home? Because it was the only way of getting it back after YOU invaded it. Why did we threaten Gallente Prime with destruction? Because it was the only way of keeping it. Fredfredbug4 wrote:Are you sure you're not describing yourself? The one good thing came out of your invasion of Luminaire is that we have a plethora of evidence showing how brutal you are. All the atrocities you listed were committed against Gallente Citizens on Caldari Prime and I can't seem to find anything that indicates Federal troops did similar things against your people on recently occupied worlds.
And even if everything you claim is correct, it's nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.
First of all, the one good thing that came of our occupation and liberation of Home is that free Caldari can now walk the surface of their homeworld and breathe it's air again. Our citizens are more used to obeying the laws put in place for the sole purpose of the smooth running of our society. A society that, thanks to the eternal war we have to fight against the Federation to keep our sovreignty, doesn't include some of the luxuries that your own does - preferring to devote our energies to technological progress, standard of living and infrastructure and the development of a State that has a history of mere centuries. Your own citizens are, perhaps, not used to the proper penalties for the breaking of laws and the disrespect of authority figures that seems almost second-nature behaviour to them. The planet was locked down, under threat of attack and constantly being infiltrated by saboteurs and agents provocateur. The regime was, by necessity, more authoritarian than is the case in the State and the concommitant penalties for disobedience were higher. But yes, everything I claim is correct. Black Eagle agents operating in both Black Rise and on the surface of Home during the occupation murdered and sabotaged and they also equipped and organised cells of terrorists on Home to foment civil disobedience and acts of terror. Civilians were, for the most part, their targets. You also forget that similar measures were carried out against the ethnic Caldari BEFORE the invasion. Locking them into ghetto districts and treating them as a second-class race on their own homeworld while the distribution of resources and opportunity was skewed in favour of their ethnic Gallentean overlords - precisely as we knew it would when we seceded. So, are we better than you or only as good as you? Perhaps the answer lies in the question of whose Home all this was being done on? Was it yours? No.
Amen. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2083
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 03:10:00 -
[156] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Why did we threaten Gallente Prime with destruction? Because it was the only way of keeping it.
No, it's because Tibus Heth was not interested in diplomatic negotiations after reclaiming Home, and for whatever reason, decided that taking the Gallente homeworld hostage was somehow a better long term solution. Perhaps in the long term - failing to capitalise on the de facto recovery of Home was one of Tibus Heth's most marked failures of leadership, but I believe that the threatening of Gallente Prime was initially supposed to be a short-term move designed to prevent the Gallente counter-attack , which it managed for five years, and to make it prohibitively expensive which... well... clearly not prohibitively, but it DID make Operation Highlander a very phyrric victory.
A fair and agreeable point. Well said.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1321
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 03:51:00 -
[157] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Is that how you support the Federal government and sleep at night? Actually their identity has been VERY much proven. The Federal Navy has admitted that several of the atrocities were carried out by what they describe as 'former units, now rogue'. I suppose we should take their word for it?
I don't see why not. If I'm correct there haven't been any reports of these death squads for quite some time now. If the Federation was officially sanctioning these atrocities you can bet we would have the resources to commit them daily, but of course we won't because we aren't like that, as much as you would like to believe we are.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Our reclaiming of our HOMEWORLD is an act of vengeance against the Federation? Do you realise what you sound like? How you can make any sort of argument in that vein when the only way the State has ever managed to force the Gallente to compromise has been naked force I don't know!
You committed a wrong doing in response to another wrong doing. That's vengeance, whether you want to admit it or not. And stop trying to sound like the victims here. Do you know what was the last act of Gallente aggression before the Battle of Caldari Prime? The Gallente-Caldari war, and even who was the aggressor in that war is something that can be heavily disputed. Everything else has been on you. I don't recall an Erebus moving into The Forge at any point do you?
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Why did we 'invade' Home? Because it was the only way of getting it back after YOU invaded it. Why did we threaten Gallente Prime with destruction? Because it was the only way of keeping it.
And how did that work out for you?
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
First of all, the one good thing that came of our occupation and liberation of Home is that free Caldari can now walk the surface of their homeworld and breathe it's air again.
Our citizens are more used to obeying the laws put in place for the sole purpose of the smooth running of our society. A society that, thanks to the eternal war we have to fight against the Federation to keep our sovreignty, doesn't include some of the luxuries that your own does - preferring to devote our energies to technological progress, standard of living and infrastructure and the development of a State that has a history of mere centuries.
Your own citizens are, perhaps, not used to the proper penalties for the breaking of laws and the disrespect of authority figures that seems almost second-nature behaviour to them. The planet was locked down, under threat of attack and constantly being infiltrated by saboteurs and agents provocateur. The regime was, by necessity, more authoritarian than is the case in the State and the concommitant penalties for disobedience were higher.
But yes, everything I claim is correct. Black Eagle agents operating in both Black Rise and on the surface of Home during the occupation murdered and sabotaged and they also equipped and organised cells of terrorists on Home to foment civil disobedience and acts of terror. Civilians were, for the most part, their targets. You also forget that similar measures were carried out against the ethnic Caldari BEFORE the invasion. Locking them into ghetto districts and treating them as a second-class race on their own homeworld while the distribution of resources and opportunity was skewed in favour of their ethnic Gallentean overlords - precisely as we knew it would when we seceded.
So, are we better than you or only as good as you? Perhaps the answer lies in the question of whose Home all this was being done on? Was it yours? No.
I'm sure you didn't need to start a war in order for free Caldari to do that. The Federation has had an open border policy for it's entire existence. If a humble Caldari citizen truly felt the need to go to their people's homeworld they could of done so quite easily, it wouldn't even have to be a permanent stay, just a pilgrimage.
Now don't imply that we Gallenteans don't have a concept of laws and punishments for breaking them. We did execute a man on intergalactic holoprojectors by causing him to burst into flames mind you. Perhaps the Federal citizens on Caldari Prime would be more open to the occupation if your soldiers didn't muster them into ghettos, stop them from contacting each other, and shooting them dead in the street for something as innocent as trying to cross into another district.
So the Black Eagles, an organization who's sole purpose is to route out "traitors" within the Federation, is now operating against State citizens. Do you have any evidence for this claim whatsoever? I mean I think we can all agree that the Black Eagles are oppressive totalitarian asshats, but I'm pretty sure they're oppressing their own people, not others. Try again.
In regards to Caldari treatment on Caldari Prime, not only are your claims lacking evidence available to the general public, but they simply defy common sense. The Caldari and Gallente coexisted peacefully on Caldari Prime under Federal control for a full century before Heth showed up. Don't you think there would be even small moments of unrest if the situation you suggest was true? The Gallente rose up against Caldari occupation in just five years. I would imagine that the Caldari would of done something within a hundred years if the situation were as bad as you make it out to be.
Put it this way, the massive walls separating Caldari and Gallente on the planet were only erected when the State came back. That should tell you something.
And I'm not claiming superiority. I firmly believe that on a purely individual level, we are all equal. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1762
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 05:23:00 -
[158] - Quote
Fred, as a producer of Gallente media I had hoped that you might not turn out to be quite so gulled by it. You have called us far worse than I called you and on a lot less evidence. I suppose THAT is why this war continues. Because one side fails to see that it has been the instigator of it for two centuries and continues to do so to this day.
Sleep well, Fred. The death squads are nothing to do with you. The killing isn't happening. The corruption is non-existent. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
142
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 05:46:00 -
[159] - Quote
Tuulinen,
In response to your earlier comment about examples of Gallente morality I will say there are few. I've never been a fan of the Federation but I will say that one very noble thing it did recently was helping the Minmatar rebels gain freedom. Beyond that, you'd have to ask someone who actually cares to defend the Federations actions and morals as I do not; that is not my battle.
However, the reason I mentioned anything about morality certainly wasn't to say the Caldari are below anyone in that regard. Though if you feel it necessary to continue terrorizing people simply because you were once terrorized then you certainly aren't above anyone in that regard either.
-Eran |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1762
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 05:58:00 -
[160] - Quote
Terror is a tool, Mr Mintor and it is one that every faction uses. The State didn't use the threat of force against Gallente Prime because we enjoyed it or because they did it to us - it was done because it was the best way of preserving control of Home.
|
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Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 06:18:00 -
[161] - Quote
While I agree with that assertion, the same tools are not to be used for every job. I would argue that responding to terror with more terror only begets an endless cycle.
Example : You have an extremist who doesn't represent any real majority commit an act of terror. This enrages the victims friends & family and inspires some of them to extremism, at which point they reply with their own actions of terror against the other, and so it continues until people are too afraid to come out from under their rocks to see the world and face reality.
I might suggest that diplomacy has always been the best response to terror. Not diplomacy with those who are committing the acts of terror, but with those whom they hide amongst. This doesn't always result in the fastest responses, but it would certainly minimize hateful passions between two parties when they police themselves out of respect for the other.
-Eran |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
751
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:37:00 -
[162] - Quote
In response to M. Thiesant:
Laurentis Thiesant wrote: After all, implementing Kaalakiota martial law on a planet which, even under Caldari law, may not be owned by Kaalakiota anymore may be a massive oversight which could result in a massive reputational hit for Pyre-Falcon. Talk about a public and massive mistake waiting to happen.
Allow me to express amusement at your rather obvious ignorance of the private military industry, and as it applies to the State in particular. Did you ever pause to consider that not being beholden to public opinion is one of the many reasons the services I provide are in demand? I don't sell consumer goods, and the business of privatized force and violence does not require a positive profile with the general public because it is not the general public that makes use of such services.
Now that's professionally. Personally, it would be a massive mistake waiting to happen to project your own moral, ethical, or legal views as a Federal citizen upon myself. I was not raised in the Federation. My values are not your own. I was raised and taught in an environment that it does not matter how well liked you may or may not be, so long as the job is done. I'm not here to be other people's friends. I'm not here for vainglorious pursuits. I'm not here to seek adulation. What I am here to do, in the position I currently hold, is to do my job whose underlying philosophy is exactly the same as when I was in the Navy, in corporate law, in a mergers and acquisition firm, or doing venture capital investment:
Kill. Or be killed.
My shareholders and my clients do not expect me to be well liked. They care not how many faux friends I am able to cultivate on my social media profile (If I had one). I am tasked with ensuring the viability and profitability of the organization I lead on behalf of its stakeholders. Nothing more, nothing less. In my occupation, ruthlessness is a required trait. If I was unable to act without mercy and compassion in the prosecution of the interests of my stakeholders then I would I say I would be remiss in my own duties and would have failed to meet my obligations. Your assertion that I am in breach of any shareholder agreement is incorrect for Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is not a public company, and its share prices are not subject to the vagaries of the media, opinion, or speculation.
As for claims of illegality due to the revoking of development rights by the former Executor: This was done under dubious legality by an office that no longer exists. Neither the CEP as a whole nor its constituent members have officially rescinded their claims or rights to development of Federal systems. The notion that Caldari Megacorporations would continue to follow the diktats of a man and office that have been dissolved or would cede rights purchased due to them, I would regard to be absolute nonsense. Pyre Falcon Defence Combine will maintain the position that any and all directives issued by the Office of Executor to be null and void. As such, it will continue to recognize the purchased development rights of all Megacorporations and will construct its operations upon that basis.
Additionally, the arrangement between the Intaki Assembly and Ishukone Corporation is specific only to the Intaki Assembly and Ishukone Corporation. It is a model, and one that might even be said to work well for the parties involved. It is by no means the precedent for State law, nor is it the only model that can be used between Caldari corporations and Federal worlds in the CEWPA zone. |
Marnian Veroe
Mantenault National Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 19:17:00 -
[163] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Marnian Veroe wrote:If someday you are ready to make these hypothetical thoughts a reality, and to resort to barbarian methods, then you shall pray the Maker for what will happen to the few unfortunates of your soldiers that might end up under the hands of the people here.
We can show honour, but if you are unable to do the same in return, then you will be treated like the honourless pigs that you are.
Let's see how the so called honourable Pieter Tuulinen will do when faced with such orders from his boss. This will surely be interesting to watch. Whatever his choice, he loses face. He'll expect you to adhere to the demands that intergalactic law place on you, as he will adhere to their demands on him. He'll do his duty, as he sees it, to the best of his ability. And he will have absolutely ZERO tolerance for those who break the law or commit acts of barbarity on the people under his protection. For a start I'll only be landing on soil that is legally controlled by the Caldari State. Whether you 'like it' or not - you live in the CEWPA warzone with all the folly that this entails. Don't like it? I suggest you spend less time and energy on inflammatory local politics and give your Senator a good kicking. Do I have to make this point a hundred times? CEWPA is GALLENTE law - not just State Law. Now, do you have any specific accusations to make regarding my actions in the past?
Intergalactic law does not tell me to surrender my planet and government to foreign invaders. It may have happened here and there on other worlds when their solar systems changed hands again and again, and I am sure that we could find plenty of examples as various as there are stars in that star cluster.
The only thing I have witnessed for sure, is that solar systems change hands, and some examples of solar systems that continue to change hands while their planetary governments remain unchanged (cf, Intaki, an example among others).
Do not think that just because I grew up on some remote world that I am a fervent ignorant in everything. The so called galactic law that the Federation signed and you continue to refer to is utter bullshit and you know it, unless you are even more inconsistent than you actually look. The only thing that was signed under CONCORD benediction/curse was the ability for a certain number of lowsec systems to change hands under the conditions of the proxy war. What happens inside these systems once they are handed to the winner of the moment is a cosmic legal blackhole.
We respect your will to set up your law in conquered worlds, but it does not mean it is legal under intergalactic law. Your law, against ours. Your dead, against ours. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
754
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 21:47:00 -
[164] - Quote
Marnian Veroe wrote: We respect your will to set up your law in conquered worlds, but it does not mean it is legal under intergalactic law. Your law, against ours. Your dead, against ours.
I'm glad you finally accept the political and military paradigm your world finds itself under, Mlle. Veroe. |
Marnian Veroe
Mantenault National Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 22:00:00 -
[165] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Marnian Veroe wrote: We respect your will to set up your law in conquered worlds, but it does not mean it is legal under intergalactic law. Your law, against ours. Your dead, against ours.
I'm glad you finally accept the political and military paradigm your world finds itself under, Mlle. Veroe.
The only one denying it was your Tuulinen pilot. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1323
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 22:41:00 -
[166] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fred, as a producer of Gallente media I had hoped that you might not turn out to be quite so gulled by it. You have called us far worse than I called you and on a lot less evidence. I suppose THAT is why this war continues. Because one side fails to see that it has been the instigator of it for two centuries and continues to do so to this day.
Sleep well, Fred. The death squads are nothing to do with you. The killing isn't happening. The corruption is non-existent.
All I'd ask you to do is to imagine the things that happened to Caldari Prime happening to, say, Villore. Now imagine them staying like that for ALL that time. Now imagine me shrugging and pointing out that, provided you're willing to come as a tourist, you could still VISIT Villore as much as you liked just not, you know, vote there. Or own property. Or work. Not without losing your citizenship.
You seem a reasonably intelligent man.
First of all, point to any claim I made and I can provide evidence. The actions of your soldiers on Caldari Prime are very well documented. Also, the reason why this war continues is due to both of us I'm afraid. Each side justifying further escalation of the war with a childish "Buuut he hit me fiiiirst!" and "Noooo he hit me fiiirst!" I'm willing to admit that the first official act of war (orbital bombardment) was committed by us during the Gallente- Caldari war, however you can't possibly claim that we are the aggressors when you invade our space and threaten our home world with total annihilation.
The killings are happening, and there certainly is corruption, however I simply can't say there is proper evidence to condemn the Federation over it. I honestly do feel sorry for the victims of these attacks but I'm not willing to take responsibility for it, mainly because we're not responsible. I know five years of Heth propaganda might make you think differently but we honestly aren't genocidal maniacs. We use our military to defend our people and to assist those that ask for our help. We have absolutely nothing to gain from sending special forces teams to massacre civilians.
Alright, I'll play along. Personally, I don't find any reason to move to Villore or Gallente Prime permanently. The major reason stemming from the fact that whether or not they are under Federal control, wasn't born there. Being connected to that stupid ceremonial monarchy I can trace my ancestry back to Gallente Prime, but that's the only connection I have with the planet. As long as our monuments and culture weren't being purged, I wouldn't care if Villore or Gallente Prime were owned by Caldari, Minmatar, or even Amarr. If I had some need to permanently move to those worlds, I would be willing to apply for residency, dual citizenship, or even full citizenship depending on the circumstances.
Look, I'm sincerely sorry the Caldari don't have their homeworld. I've always been in favor of returning Caldari Prime to the State, however only on the grounds that it's done peacefully and that Federal citizens are treated properly. It's simply not worth starting a war over if you ask me, even if I were in your shoes. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1770
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 22:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
I think you misunderstood my Ojaabun's point.
It seems we would both feel justified under law, had things come to blows. It would have come down to push versus shove and, as Oniseki-haani pointed out, likely it would have been yourselves who got shoved.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1770
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 00:11:00 -
[168] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:First of all, point to any claim I made and I can provide evidence. The actions of your soldiers on Caldari Prime are very well documented. Also, the reason why this war continues is due to both of us I'm afraid. Each side justifying further escalation of the war with a childish "Buuut he hit me fiiiirst!" and "Noooo he hit me fiiirst!" I'm willing to admit that the first official act of war (orbital bombardment) was committed by us during the Gallente- Caldari war, however you can't possibly claim that we are the aggressors when you invade our space and threaten our home world with total annihilation. Really, the best way to stop this war is simply to put the past behind us and drop our guns and both sides need to get a little maturity to do that.
Well, I consider the question of Caldari Prime to be equitably and fairly settled by the current accomodation. How's that for maturity and being willing to move on? The only reason I'm in uniform and in the warzone now is because of the abuses being inflicted on Caldari worlds in Black Rise. As far as I'm concerend the whole issue could be settled by drawing a line that divided worlds with a historical Caldari presence from worlds with a historical Gallente presence.
When / If that happens, I'll be glad to stop killing Gallente and turn my attention to other enemies of the State. There are plenty - some of them joint enemies we'd be well advised to face together.
As for the actions of Caldari occupiers/liberators - it is WELL documented that the invasion was carried out with every attempt to preserve the lives of non-combatants. What happened during the occupation is partly the excesses of the Provists (And I've probably killed as many Provists as YOU have, during the unrest leading up to Heth's ouster) and partly the Gallente inability to follow orders during a state of emergency. Kill terrorists? Oh no! How could we? That's just MEAN.
And yes, I traded rounds with some of these 'patriots and freedom fighters' during visits to Home during the occupation. They were real - you could tell by the SNAP the rounds made as they passed overhead.
Fredfredbug4 wrote:The killings are happening, and there certainly is corruption, however I simply can't say there is proper evidence to condemn the Federation over it. I honestly do feel sorry for the victims of these attacks but I'm not willing to take responsibility for it, mainly because we're not responsible. I know five years of Heth propaganda might make you think differently but we honestly aren't genocidal maniacs. We use our military to defend our people and to assist those that ask for our help. We have absolutely nothing to gain from sending special forces teams to massacre civilians.
Your own government has admitted to dosing your soldiers with experimental combat drugs. Your own Navy has admitted to rogue squads of cloned troopers attacking Caldari citizens. An entire Kaalakiota mining colony was wiped out to a man. The Servant Sisters of Eve carried out an independent report on this matter - galnet it.
Seriously. This 'Our hearts are pure and our breath is minty fresh' crap is beneath you Fred. When you claim our policing actions on Caldari Prime were excessive and pretend your own faction's murders of civilians never happened, the stench is particularly cloying.
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Alright, I'll play along. Personally, I don't find any reason to move to Villore or Gallente Prime permanently. The major reason stemming from the fact that whether or not they are under Federal control, I wasn't born there. Being connected to that stupid ceremonial monarchy I can trace my ancestry back to Gallente Prime, but that's the only connection I have with the planet. As long as our monuments and culture weren't being purged, I wouldn't care if Villore or Gallente Prime were owned by Caldari, Minmatar, or even Amarr. If I had some need to permanently move to those worlds, I would be willing to apply for residency, dual citizenship, or even full citizenship depending on the circumstances.
So, because you don't take your own heritage seriously nobody else is allowed to? You don't have to share the sentiment, but isn't it enough to know that Caldari take ours seriously, take our Home seriously and are willing to fight, kill and die in order to win the right of home-rule on Home?
Aren't you convinced how seriously we take it, yet? Don't you understand that we will do anything, stop at nothing? Do we actually have to doomsday Gallente Prime to drive it into your head? Can't you just let the current settlement stand? Give us rule over the 55% of the planet we control?
I hope a Caldari never has to say "Hakkinen K'len" again.
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Look, I'm sincerely sorry the Caldari don't have their homeworld. I've always been in favor of returning Caldari Prime to the State, however only on the grounds that it's done peacefully and that Federal citizens are treated properly. It's simply not worth starting a war over if you ask me, even if I were in your shoes.
I understand the problems, inherent. I think the current solution is probably the best one, under the circumstances. Luminaire's sovreignty is unquestioned, you have part of the world for those who wish to be Federation citizens and WE have part of Home for those who wish to be Caldari citizens.
Can we keep that agreement?
Anyway, our discussion has ceased to be about Mantenault any long and it is has become the tired and predictable sabre-rattling and chest-beating that is so tiresome to the majority. If you're truly interested in going to the mat with a Caldari until we both understand each other's position, please contact me privately. I'll be glad to tell you how we feel and why - perhaps you'll find it enlightening? |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1324
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 00:24:00 -
[169] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Anyway, our discussion has ceased to be about Mantenault any longer and it is has become the tired and predictable sabre-rattling and chest-beating that is so tiresome to the majority. If you're truly interested in going to the mat with a Caldari until we both understand each other's position, please contact me privately. I'll be glad to tell you how we feel and why - perhaps you'll find it enlightening?
Very well, I will contact you. I will respond to your earlier points via private message. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
755
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 03:51:00 -
[170] - Quote
Marnian Veroe wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Marnian Veroe wrote: We respect your will to set up your law in conquered worlds, but it does not mean it is legal under intergalactic law. Your law, against ours. Your dead, against ours.
I'm glad you finally accept the political and military paradigm your world finds itself under, Mlle. Veroe. The only one denying it was your Tuulinen pilot.
And he is certainly welcome to his own opinions. As to whether or not I personally prescribe to them in the prosecution of my duties and my tasks is another matter altogether.
My own opinion is that the future history between the State and Federation is to be written in blood. It will matter little what pointed words are to be said, only the pointed bullets that will be used.
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
545
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Posted - 2013.09.24 10:41:00 -
[171] - Quote
How edgy. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2755
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Posted - 2013.09.24 18:59:00 -
[172] - Quote
welp...so much for cooled tensions. Oh well.
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
762
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Posted - 2013.09.24 19:45:00 -
[173] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:How edgy.
For a man whose entire life appears to be the continued vainglorious pursuit for attention and adulation leading only to an existence as a celebrity mediocrity due to being a talentless hack, it is understandable that such is the only assessment possible for one such as yourself. Indeed, I would say that a man who seeks only fame and the massaging of their ego like yourself would judge that such are the sole motivations in others.
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Marnian Veroe
Mantenault National Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2013.09.24 20:11:00 -
[174] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I think you misunderstood my Ojaabun's point.
It seems we would both feel justified under law, had things come to blows. It would have come down to push versus shove and, as Oniseki-haani pointed out, likely it would have been yourselves who got shoved.
What makes you so sure of that ? Your specially trained Caldari marines ?
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: My own opinion is that the future history between the State and Federation is to be written in blood. It will matter little what pointed words are to be said, only the pointed bullets that will be used.
We do not mind that. We are rather confident in the superiority of our culture and military might if the Gallente state sees it worth the trouble.
As far as the policies of my own party have always put a strong emphasis on principles of nationality - which means the independence of the Caldari if so they wish - the smallest threat coming from them should be met with relentless military responses. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
762
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Posted - 2013.09.24 20:28:00 -
[175] - Quote
Marnian Veroe wrote:
We do not mind that. We are rather confident in the superiority of our culture and military might if the Gallente state sees it worth the trouble.
As far as the policies of my own party have always put a strong emphasis on principles of nationality - which means the independence of the Caldari if so they wish - the smallest threat coming from them should be met with relentless military responses.
To live a life of true purpose to one's people and nation demands conflict and the shedding of blood. Your sense of patriotism is admirable. I look forward to the day I may be granted the opportunity to test your resolve, just as you shall have the opportunity to test mine. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1776
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Posted - 2013.09.24 20:33:00 -
[176] - Quote
Marnian Veroe wrote:We do not mind that. We are rather confident in the superiority of our culture and military might if the Gallente state sees it worth the trouble.
As far as the policies of my own party have always put a strong emphasis on principles of nationality - which means the independence of the Caldari if so they wish - the smallest threat coming from them should be met with relentless military responses.
Of all the types of stupidity I have encountered the least attractive is aggressive stupidity. The big difference between us is that you are making commitments that would have to be met with the blood and bravery of others.
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Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1329
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Posted - 2013.09.24 21:13:00 -
[177] - Quote
Marnian Veroe wrote: We do not mind that. We are rather confident in the superiority of our culture and military might if the Gallente state sees it worth the trouble.
As far as the policies of my own party have always put a strong emphasis on principles of nationality - which means the independence of the Caldari if so they wish - the smallest threat coming from them should be met with relentless military responses.
And this is why the...State...should be destroyed? Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1779
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Posted - 2013.09.25 03:11:00 -
[178] - Quote
What, you thought WE had the only one? |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1333
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Posted - 2013.09.25 17:53:00 -
[179] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:What, you thought WE had the only one?
Oh of course not! But it just echoed the diction of our favorite provist very closely. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Marnian Veroe
Mantenault National Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2013.09.25 19:11:00 -
[180] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Marnian Veroe wrote:We do not mind that. We are rather confident in the superiority of our culture and military might if the Gallente state sees it worth the trouble.
As far as the policies of my own party have always put a strong emphasis on principles of nationality - which means the independence of the Caldari if so they wish - the smallest threat coming from them should be met with relentless military responses. Of all the types of stupidity I have encountered the least attractive is aggressive stupidity. The big difference between us is that you are making commitments that would have to be met with the blood and bravery of others.
Then I guess you must hate yourself as well. |
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