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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
839
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:34:00 -
[121] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Without rigs a proteus does 600dps with T1 ammo and runs 101k tank. Rigs are just nice things to have on T3s, they aren't where the force is coming from. So what's the solution for the bricks then? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
229
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:40:00 -
[122] - Quote
PvP is all well and nice - and should rightly be the focus of Eve...
With that said, if T3's (meaning Tengu's) are nerfed to the point where they suck at high-end PvE, the price will crash. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
229
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:45:00 -
[123] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:FT Diomedes wrote: Note - I don't fly T3's in PVP. I just don't want to see them nerfed again. Tengus already took a beating from the HML nerf.
I presume you mean pve tengus? All the tengus I ever encountered in pvp were either HAM/shield or ECM/armour. Did people use HM tengu fleets in 0.0 for long range dps? If so, I'd say this nerf was welcome. Ranged missile dps should be realm of the Raven etc. [quote=FT Diomedes]
HML Tengus were a 0.0 doctrine prior to the HML nerf. It was the expensive version of Drake-fleet.
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
839
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:53:00 -
[124] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:With that said, if T3's (meaning Tengu's) are nerfed to the point where they suck at high-end PvE, the price will crash. And on one will fly them for the associated risk vs. reward (especially the SP loss). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
661
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:59:00 -
[125] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Slots, power grid, CPU, cargo capacity, HP, and drone bay would be static features of the ships. Yeah, I like the variable aspect of T3s as it keeps things a bit interesting (and you can run some unique fits). By unique are you refering to the OP ones, or the completly useless ones? Which ones are completely OP? The flying bricks? Proteus, with 122K EHP, and 600 DPS while being T2 and meta 4 fit sounds balanced for a cruiser right? Or is that just unique? No implants, drugs, or OGB either.
My cheapo T2 112k eHP Prophesy that costs like 75mil and does 350dps says yeah, that isn't that far out of line.
My Mryms used to crest 100k eHP with (bait) buffers and still throw out around 500 dps overheated
...both no drugs, implants or other silliness |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
661
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 02:01:00 -
[126] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:FT Diomedes wrote: Note - I don't fly T3's in PVP. I just don't want to see them nerfed again. Tengus already took a beating from the HML nerf.
I presume you mean pve tengus? All the tengus I ever encountered in pvp were either HAM/shield or ECM/armour. Did people use HM tengu fleets in 0.0 for long range dps? If so, I'd say this nerf was welcome. Ranged missile dps should be realm of the Raven etc. [quote=FT Diomedes] HML Tengus were a 0.0 doctrine prior to the HML nerf. It was the expensive version of Drake-fleet.
Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
840
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Posted - 2013.12.10 02:19:00 -
[127] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return. Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
M1k3y Koontz
thorn project Surely You're Joking
435
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Posted - 2013.12.10 02:47:00 -
[128] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:2000dps tank tengu can perma-tank (cap stable, not ASB). it's pricey, but that's not the point. This is too much for anything to perma-tank. Despite the fact that recon ships have paper advantages over T3s, it's only T3s that are used. This is, as has been mentioned before, because of their Herculean survivability. There's a huge difference between a 250k+ EHP passive brick and a 2000+ DPS active tank. Namely that you'll be absolutely massacred by even a medium neutralizer or vampire. Of course there is a difference. 250k ehp is not good for a cruiser to have - it's in pirate battleship territory. A 2k perms-tank is worse because at least another ship has an opportunity to eventually work through the 250k hit points. Against a 2k perms-tank, nothing has a reasonable chance of damaging the tengu unaided. I have already pointed out that the only way to kill this ship in a 1:1 is with a neut ship. To anything else, it's essentially immune to the other ship's presence. This is wrong. No pvp-capable ship should be able to perma-tank every subcap in the game indefinitely.
Tell that to Marauders.
T3s might be able to tank, but they won't do anything else if fit that way.
Harvey James wrote: you're kind of skipping over there main strength ... T2 resists combined with resist bonused subs/ HP bonuses/ spider tank
Nobody spider tanks T3s other than in C5/C6 Ladar Sites
Arthur Aihaken wrote: So Proteus and Legion bricks. How do you propose to address those without removing rig slots?
10% armor HP/level bonus to 5%. Problem solved. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
77
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Posted - 2013.12.10 03:01:00 -
[129] - Quote
The only kind of versatility that is valuable IMO is if I get to change my T3 fit while in space (with a combat timer on changing the fit so people can't exploit it by swapping their lows for warp core stabs mid-fight when they realise they can't win).
Otherwise I see no reason why I should risk double-triple the isk and a week's worth of skill training flying something that is crappier than a HAC. If it requires docking to change fits, I'd rather dock up and change into a HAC. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1898
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 03:03:00 -
[130] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:The only kind of versatility that is valuable IMO is if I get to change my T3 fit while in space (with a combat timer on changing the fit so people can't exploit it by swapping their lows for warp core stabs mid-fight when they realise they can't win).
Otherwise I see no reason why I should risk double-triple the isk and a week's worth of skill training flying something that is crappier than a HAC. If it requires docking to change fits, I'd rather dock up and change into a HAC. Mobile Depot? Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
842
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Posted - 2013.12.10 03:06:00 -
[131] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mobile Depot? Not the same as being able to do it anywhere on the fly without tipping anyone off. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
663
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 04:14:00 -
[132] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Onictus wrote:Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return. Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense...
At the time it certainly did, the fact was that if you didn't have a panic geddon or pulse poc drakes were doing battle ship DPS at better than short range battleship range with equivalent tanks.
There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
843
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 06:15:00 -
[133] - Quote
Onictus wrote:There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad. So what's the solution? Put heavy missiles back to where they were or just improve the damage application? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Seranova Farreach
489
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Posted - 2013.12.10 06:36:00 -
[134] - Quote
as a TECH3 it needs to be superior to the Tech 2 varients but thats because of the higher cost. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2013.12.10 06:58:00 -
[135] - Quote
Onictus wrote:drakes were doing battle ship DPS Oh **** off. |
Seranova Farreach
489
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Posted - 2013.12.10 07:00:00 -
[136] - Quote
ps, they are doing t2 and pirate first. and then mostlikly capitals befor they touch t3s. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Seranova Farreach
489
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Posted - 2013.12.10 07:03:00 -
[137] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Onictus wrote:drakes were doing battle ship DPS Oh **** off.
drakes.. i remember the old drake barely hit 450 dps. with hams which sacrifices alot of tank had to be OH'd to get to maybe 700ish dps.
i like the new nighthawk cause its come into line with sleipnir though sleppy is still the king but both can now do a modest 800-900 dps depending on fit/shineys.
havnt tried navy drake yet but i have my reservations about its effectivness, its most probably a mid range between drake and NH. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Seranova Farreach
489
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Posted - 2013.12.10 07:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Onictus wrote:Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return. Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... At the time it certainly did, the fact was that if you didn't have a panic geddon or pulse poc drakes were doing battle ship DPS at better than short range battleship range with equivalent tanks. There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad.
gank brutix gets like 1300 dps so i dont know what your smokeing. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1393
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 07:47:00 -
[139] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:as a TECH3 it needs to be superior to the Tech 2 varients but thats because of the higher cost.
CCP disagrees with you very strongly. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
893
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 09:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Onictus wrote:
... various comments ...
I hear where you're coming from but in practice it makes no difference that a rapier has a 20km range bonus over a loki. Almost all combat in wormholes takes place at range 0. The rapier will have to warp out or die. The loki won't. 150kehp and 1000dps on a proteus does not require slaves (although many WH fleet pilots will fit them). 2000dps tank tengu can perma-tank (cap stable, not ASB). it's pricey, but that's not the point. This is too much for anything to perma-tank. Despite the fact that recon ships have paper advantages over T3s, it's only T3s that are used. This is, as has been mentioned before, because of their Herculean survivability. and that is why I think t3 should loose all 3 rig slots. Since rigs slots are mostly used for tanking purposes. and that would make all T3s half billion isk trash
Would not.. specially because you missed the part about buffing some of the subsystems. It woudl fix the major problem with T3.. insane buffers and active tanks and how easy they circunvent their intended limitations (fittings for example).
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
893
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 09:17:00 -
[141] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:The only kind of versatility that is valuable IMO is if I get to change my T3 fit while in space (with a combat timer on changing the fit so people can't exploit it by swapping their lows for warp core stabs mid-fight when they realise they can't win).
Otherwise I see no reason why I should risk double-triple the isk and a week's worth of skill training flying something that is crappier than a HAC. If it requires docking to change fits, I'd rather dock up and change into a HAC.
That is another reason why rigs need to go. The subsystem scan be buffed to partially compensate. Without rigs you wil lbe even more prone to warping to a planet where your alt siwith the depot, and transform your ship to a completely diffferent machine and attack the target.
T3 becoem VERSATILE ships, not extremely specialized monsters in a single field. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
893
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 09:19:00 -
[142] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:HiddenPorpoise wrote:Without rigs a proteus does 600dps with T1 ammo and runs 101k tank. Rigs are just nice things to have on T3s, they aren't where the force is coming from. So what's the solution for the bricks then?
It is ONLY rigs. that proteus is still strong but no where nearly a monster as a proteus with rigs. It will die to a well used and well fit battleship if it simply uses it old tactic of sit and fire everything without bothering about the incomming damage.! And that is a HUGE improvment
It also promotes a ship that wil b exchanged into other cofnigurations much more often "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
670
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 14:12:00 -
[143] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:Sal Landry wrote:Onictus wrote:drakes were doing battle ship DPS Oh **** off. drakes.. i remember the old drake barely hit 450 dps. with hams which sacrifices alot of tank had to be OH'd to get to maybe 700ish dps. i like the new nighthawk cause its come into line with sleipnir though sleppy is still the king but both can now do a modest 800-900 dps depending on fit/shineys. havnt tried navy drake yet but i have my reservations about its effectivness, its most probably a mid range between drake and NH.
Yeah 450 @ 75km and that was heavy missiles
More than a Baltec mega, more than most fleet dominix builds, more than an pulse baddon all while MWDing around.
...and like hell they had to sacrifice tank
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
899
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 14:31:00 -
[144] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:Onictus wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Onictus wrote:Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return. Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... At the time it certainly did, the fact was that if you didn't have a panic geddon or pulse poc drakes were doing battle ship DPS at better than short range battleship range with equivalent tanks. There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad. gank brutix gets like 1300 dps so i dont know what your smokeing.
Certainly somethign less strong then you. Show me brutix hitting 70 km away targets with that dps. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 14:34:00 -
[145] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Would not.. specially because you missed the part about buffing some of the subsystems. It woudl fix the major problem with T3.. insane buffers and active tanks and how easy they circunvent their intended limitations (fittings for example).
You should really try spelling it out more. Because not every T3 has an insane buffer. Not every T3 has an insane active tank. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
287
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 15:24:00 -
[146] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I have already pointed out that the only way to kill this ship in a 1:1 is with a neut ship. To anything else, it's essentially immune to the other ship's presence. And here we find the failing in the OP's logic. Nothing in EVE is, or should be, balanced around 1 vs 1 "honourable" combat. EVE is balanced around my group fighting your group. As many people have already patiently explained, there are limited circumstances where the T3 cruiser comes out superior. Just because the T3 cruiser is better in certain specific situations doesn't mean it is overpowered. Just because you can't kill it 1-on-1 doesn't make it overpowered.
If any region of space is considered "well off" it's the Nullsec blocs. So, look at what is flown in Nullsec. You have ISK that flows like water AND a lack of W-space constraints. You have small, medium, and large sized fleets, and they are constantly throwing those fleets at each other, keeping what works and eliminating what doesn't. As much as it pains me to admit it, there is more fleet vs fleet battle happening in Nullsec than is in W-space. If T3 cruisers were the best that money could buy, you wouldn't see anything else flown out there. They have special purpose T3 doctrines, but the every day ship-of-the-line is not the T3 cruiser.
The biggest reason for a T3 cruiser in W-space is the mass: cruiser-sized hulls have low mass, meaning you can shove more of them through that collapsing hole than you can other types of ships. There are two advanced cruiser-sized dps options: T2 HAC and T3 cruiser.
The second primary reason for a T3 cruiser is the tank. In W-space, with most action occurring within 5-10k of a wormhole, you get high dps applied to targets rapidly, especially if dreads are present (not unusual). Higher tanks allow parties to stay on the field and fight longer, rather than popping instantly. In W-space, we don't have the 1000-man fleet battles that they do in Null, so increased fighting time per person is more fun than finding your way back from Hisec only a few seconds after you land. Your brick-tank T3 fleet would melt in any other region of space to a nano kiting gang, and to many other types of fleets. That nano kiting gang would melt trying to brawl on a wormhole.
As people have been trying to tell the OP, ship use is situational. Because of the style of combat and the specific circumstances surrounding wormhole interactions, T3 cruisers are very common in W-space. And guess what? That's probably where CCP intended they be used, since their components come FROM W-space. And there again, it shows how CCP got W-space "right", down to the ships that are produced there often being the best tools for the job there.
You use the right tool for the job. As the posts in this thread show, that's not always a T3 cruiser in every situation, or even most situations in the game. Mostly just in W-space.
T3 cruisers have some areas where they are a touch too powerful; Tengu has a little more of this than the others. They also have areas where they are lacking. It's nowhere near the "Apocalypse" that some make it out to be. You could go a long way to fixing much of this by removing a single rig slot accompanied by minor tweaks, up in some cases and down in others.
And don't forget that CCP does indeed use cost as a balancing factor; look at the vanilla BCs vs the faction BCs if you need confirmation of this. So, for a ship that costs 3-5 times as much AND includes skill point loss when it explodes, I'd expect it to outperform in many areas, if not in every one.
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supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
89
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Posted - 2013.12.10 15:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
Not a fan of T3's because though they can not beat their T2 counterparts directly in their fields, they can beat them indirectly. This is because, between subsystems bonuses and the stats of the ship along with a greater variety of ways to fly them in head to head combat that they have enough bonuses to make up for it.
For example Legion vs HAC - favor hac 2x legion vs 2x HAC - favor legion 5x HAC vs 5x legion + guardians for both - favor legion
Granted this just looks at the legion and the isk-risk ratios are way skewed but the HAC should be outperforming the legion here regardless as is its role |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
670
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 16:00:00 -
[148] - Quote
supernova ranger wrote:Not a fan of T3's because though they can not beat their T2 counterparts directly in their fields, they can beat them indirectly. This is because, between subsystems bonuses and the stats of the ship along with a greater variety of ways to fly them in head to head combat that they have enough bonuses to make up for it.
For example Legion vs HAC - favor hac 2x legion vs 2x HAC - favor legion 5x HAC vs 5x legion + guardians for both - favor legion
Granted this just looks at the legion and the isk-risk ratios are way skewed but the HAC should be outperforming the legion here regardless as is its role
Which is exactly what we said during the HAC rebalance the issue isn't the T3s, its the HACs.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1898
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 16:28:00 -
[149] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:HiddenPorpoise wrote:Without rigs a proteus does 600dps with T1 ammo and runs 101k tank. Rigs are just nice things to have on T3s, they aren't where the force is coming from. So what's the solution for the bricks then? It is ONLY rigs. that proteus is still strong but no where nearly a monster as a proteus with rigs. It will die to a well used and well fit battleship if it simply uses it old tactic of sit and fire everything without bothering about the incomming damage.! And that is a HUGE improvment It also promotes a ship that wil b exchanged into other cofnigurations much more often It has more to do with the insane amounts of starting HP the subsystems have. Proteus Augmented Plating : 3650 Armor HP Most Gallente T2 ships have about 2000 HP
With all skills at level 5 the Augmented Plating subsystem gives the Proteus 7031.2 HP with no rigs. if you reduce the base HP to 2100 like normal advanced cruisers, it will reduce the Brick aspect of them. Using 3 T2 armor pump rigs and all skills at level 5 with 2100 HP, the armor HP ends up being 6804.
The rigs are not the problem, it is how the subsystems were initially designed. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
90
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 16:36:00 -
[150] - Quote
Onictus wrote:supernova ranger wrote:Not a fan of T3's because though they can not beat their T2 counterparts directly in their fields, they can beat them indirectly. This is because, between subsystems bonuses and the stats of the ship along with a greater variety of ways to fly them in head to head combat that they have enough bonuses to make up for it.
For example Legion vs HAC - favor hac 2x legion vs 2x HAC - favor legion 5x HAC vs 5x legion + guardians for both - favor legion
Granted this just looks at the legion and the isk-risk ratios are way skewed but the HAC should be outperforming the legion here regardless as is its role Which is exactly what we said during the HAC rebalance the issue isn't the T3s, its the HACs.
Not really, legions can spider tank and that lets them compete with the HACS. Coupled with cloaking, command bonuses, interdiction nullification... Giving HACs the same bonuses so they can compete would be a disaster. Thinking of HACs ignoring bubbles just seems way way OP for one. |
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