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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1319
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Posted - 2013.09.12 01:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll start with a few quick facts about yours truly. I plex all the time. I get the vast majority of my PvP from opening up a plex in a busy system and simply waiting to get noticed. The LP I get from plexing more then adequately supports myself. (I have 10 Navy Harbs rolling out of the oven soon and 20 Navy Omens waiting to go in.) To sum up - I have no problem plexing no matter what the tier level happens to be. This is not a personal gripe.
Amarr needs pilots - many, many pilots. It needs fresh FC's. It needs an influx in the worst possible way. Over the past year some PvP corps have joined. They get their kicks and they leave. Many corporations and alliances have gone on recruiting binges. Out of every person who joins though, even more quit or stop logging in. Over the last year Amarr has been predominantly at tier one and the burnout is ridiculous. Three months ago Amarr were actually ahead for once. For many it seemed like a great time to get off of the ride and many jumped at the opportunity. And thus we are here today. As Amarr has withdrawn so has Minmatar suffered. Those that like the fleet fights of old I'd bet have not been happy in quite some time.
Amarr needs to grow at the grassroots level - new, fresh pilots. FW in the form of the tier system has been out for a year. The arguments as to why people should join the losing team have never panned out. Love to PvP? The sad fact is people like to win more. It takes a brave soul to join a losing proposition. Those that join are fickle in their loyalty. This is a passing fancy. Economics? Some Amarr store items are twice the sales point of Minmatar items. As it takes 3x to 5x as long to earn them though that number is meaningless.
Any solution involving more complexity with either not work, or worse, backfire. The best solution is brutal simplicity -
System Upgrades:
Nobody cares at all about these. Get rid of them.
Consequences for sovereignty:
Docking rights. Bragging rights. That is all.
Rewards for Sov Pushes:
LP is earned equally by all at either Tier 2 levels or even Tier 1 levels. You are being paid to pew and push sov. That should be enough FFS. You have low risk pvp with it's own ship reimbursement program. If one side starts to walk over the other their store items saturate the market. A Navy Omen is going for 85m isk in Jita. An SFI is going for 47m isk. If things were equal in the LP department the Amarr side would be a hell of a lot more attractive.
TL;DR:
**** can the Tier System |
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium Templis Dragonaors
153
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Posted - 2013.09.12 01:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Such an original concept, would read again. I only wish the search function existed so I could see if others have suggested this novel idea before. Arma Purgatorium - For the State, For the Corporation Faction Warfare, PvP, Training
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Colt Blackhawk
Inglorious-Basterds OLD MAN GANG
176
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Posted - 2013.09.12 07:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1... although I know CCP gives a f... |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
557
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
current system is working fine. |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
86
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Posted - 2013.09.12 09:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
I kind of agree but I would go a step further, I would remove plex lp completely and only pay out on the bunker.
That way you only get paid if you finish the job!
As for the recruitment side, I would think there would be more people wanting to step up for the underdog (no disrespect meant, talking quantity).
If you want to farm lp, then do it in missions. You should not be influencing the warzone. |
Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.09.12 09:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think FW should be built around raffle system. If you kill opposing faction member, you get amout of tickects into raffle which depends on destroyed ship worth and how many different opposing faction members have this dude killed in set amount of time. This way if you kill very skillfull opposing faction pilot in a bling ship, you get bunch of tickets, but aren`t guaranteedd anything. Raffle prizes get better with FW tier. All the LP related stuff should be removed.
PS: I`m serious. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1576
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Philpip wrote:I kind of agree but I would go a step further, I would remove plex lp completely and only pay out on the bunker.
That way you only get paid if you finish the job!
As for the recruitment side, I would think there would be more people wanting to step up for the underdog (no disrespect meant, talking quantity).
If you want to farm lp, then do it in missions. You should not be influencing the warzone.
Pvp in low sec would dry up to pre-Inferno levels if you did this. LP in plexes allows pvp junkies to stay on station 23/7 and pew. Having these junkies out in space (and not docked up), leads to others undocking and pewing. Snowball.... Lots of pew.
Edit: Actually if this happened we'd get a bunch of players complaining about farmers in missions sucking up all the FW LP while the guys who are doing the dirty work of actually fighting the Occupancy War get no income at all. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1576
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:TL;DR: **** can the Tier System
A little bit longer, but more to the point: Tier System invites farming on a massive scale (proven). Either implement features that encourage pvp and not running (timer rollbacks, exclusion of cloaks and/or stabs in plexes), or ****can the Tier system. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1325
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:TL;DR: **** can the Tier System A little bit longer, but more to the point: Tier System invites farming on a massive scale (proven). Either implement features that encourage pvp and not running (timer rollbacks, exclusion of cloaks and/or stabs in plexes), or ****can the Tier system.
I have supported timer rollbacks as a kind of system upgrade in the past. Trying to add complexity at this stage is a double edged sword however. You address symptoms rather then a cause and you probably won't get the results you are looking for. CCP also desperately needs to fix other areas of the game for the health of Eve. What I suggest is a very simple fix and it addresses a farm centric problem directly. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
610
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:LP is earned equally by all at either Tier 2 levels or even Tier 1 levels. You are being paid to pew and push sov. That should be enough FFS. You have low risk pvp with it's own ship reimbursement program.
But more a faction push their warzone control less room is left to plex for them: less plex spawn, more blue competitors, enemy concentrated in the few systms left. I see the tier payout more like a balancement to this; more you push the warzone control less numbers of plexes and more risky: needs to be balanced/rewarded.
Maybe also depend by the gameplay, I fly solo most of the time and pretty casual, to me seems easyer to find viable 1vs1 engagment when amarr is winning in warzone control: they're more spreaded around, and more willing to engage in 1vs1 in a plex.
Maybe is only a personal perception, but when minmatarr is winning the zone control is harder for a solo player to use plex as trigger for a fight: the enemy tend to gang/fleet more, and to defend with higher numbers few systems. Also their offensive de-plexing become more a gang/fleet activity.
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Drax Concrilla
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
28
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Posted - 2013.09.12 15:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
While I completely agree with the OP I doubt that a complete scrap of the Tier system is going to happen. However, I think we can bandaid fix the current system as follows:
- TIMER ROLLBACKS - This won't solve the farming problem, as is discussed above, but it will help to an extent
- Drop the -50% LP gain at Tier 1 - Simply make it so that if/when you get Tier 2+ you get bonuses to the base LP. That way the losing side isn't severely punished as is the case right now.
- More LP for killing ships - This would need to be fine-tuned to avoid pilots profiting from blowing up their own alts ad nauseum.
Like I said, these are bandaid fix proposals but I believe they'd be more likely to be implemented than a complete revamp of the LP/tier system. |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 16:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Philpip wrote:I kind of agree but I would go a step further, I would remove plex lp completely and only pay out on the bunker.
That way you only get paid if you finish the job!
As for the recruitment side, I would think there would be more people wanting to step up for the underdog (no disrespect meant, talking quantity).
If you want to farm lp, then do it in missions. You should not be influencing the warzone. Pvp in low sec would dry up to pre-Inferno levels if you did this. LP in plexes allows pvp junkies to stay on station 23/7 and pew. Having these junkies out in space (and not docked up), leads to others undocking and pewing. Snowball.... Lots of pew. Edit: Actually if this happened we'd get a bunch of players complaining about farmers in missions sucking up all the FW LP while the guys who are doing the dirty work of actually fighting the Occupancy War get no income at all.
I disagree, if you take the lp out of plexes, then you take the majority of the farmers out of plexes. If you take the farmers out of plexes then the only people left to try to flip systems are the pvp'ers.
The reward for flipping the bunker would have to increase to reflect the effort. This would settle things down and you'd see a lot less yo-yo'ing systems.
I'm all in favour of timer rollbacks, regardless of the above. If you are not going to finish what you started then it should revert to neutral. |
Courath Al'viendi
Black Fox Marauders
22
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Posted - 2013.09.12 17:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Philpip wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Philpip wrote:I kind of agree but I would go a step further, I would remove plex lp completely and only pay out on the bunker.
That way you only get paid if you finish the job!
As for the recruitment side, I would think there would be more people wanting to step up for the underdog (no disrespect meant, talking quantity).
If you want to farm lp, then do it in missions. You should not be influencing the warzone. Pvp in low sec would dry up to pre-Inferno levels if you did this. LP in plexes allows pvp junkies to stay on station 23/7 and pew. Having these junkies out in space (and not docked up), leads to others undocking and pewing. Snowball.... Lots of pew. Edit: Actually if this happened we'd get a bunch of players complaining about farmers in missions sucking up all the FW LP while the guys who are doing the dirty work of actually fighting the Occupancy War get no income at all. I disagree, if you take the lp out of plexes, then you take the majority of the farmers out of plexes. If you take the farmers out of plexes then the only people left to try to flip systems are the pvp'ers. The reward for flipping the bunker would have to increase to reflect the effort. This would settle things down and you'd see a lot less yo-yo'ing systems. I'm all in favour of timer rollbacks, regardless of the above. If you are not going to finish what you started then it should revert to neutral.
Why would I bother to plex for no LP? Also why would I bother to flip a system that doesn't have a station, and even if it does what would be the point? I base all of my stuff mainly out of two stations that will never be taken. What you suggest would turn FW into a PVE mission runner crap.
Also, do you know how much work it is to flip a system from zero to 100% if you got not LP from the plexes? No LP means no one is going to waste six days of time to flip a damn system for a reward that MIGHT not happen. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
The tier system is terrible. If CCP's idea of a good FW system is by friggin LP dumping up to t4/t5 and then blowing all your LP at once, then we're doomed.
There are so many easy ways to fix what's broken, it just seems the Devs don't care much.
Man, FW could be so awesome. |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
212
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Posted - 2013.09.12 20:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
What you're suggesting is to take FW back to the bad old days when no one really gave a **** at all, with the exception of the whole docking rights thing. I can sympathize with the whole fighting the symptoms vs. the cause argument, but frankly mechanics are what drive player behavior in games like this. Implementing things like timer rollbacks make farming that much harder and less profitable, and consequently, that much less pervasive.
What we need to do, as a community, is come up with a way to keep the benefits for actual FW players, but make life extremely difficult for the no skill alts that are just farming easy isk. Doing away with the current system throws the baby out with the bathwater, since I know all of us like being able to actually fund our PVP, especially with the high loss rate that characterizes FW.
I think there are two things that would help combat the scourge of disinterested farming alts. Firstly, timer rollbacks. The harder we make it for you to avoid PVP entirely and still farm LP, the better. Secondly, and this may be more controversial, borrow one of the mechanics from incursions. Namely, you get no LP for the plexes you do until the system is flipped.
Perhaps that is a bit too draconian, and we could always make it some fraction of the LP, say half now, half when the system is flipped, but the whole point is that in order for you to reap the benefits of plexing LP, you have to actually be invested in the outcome of the warzone, instead of just running around empty systems that no one who really participates in FW actually gives a **** about.
FW for the FWers. |
Artuard Envien
Pixel Navigators
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:What you're suggesting is to take FW back to the bad old days when no one really gave a **** at all, with the exception of the whole docking rights thing. I can sympathize with the whole fighting the symptoms vs. the cause argument, but frankly mechanics are what drive player behavior in games like this. Implementing things like timer rollbacks make farming that much harder and less profitable, and consequently, that much less pervasive.
What we need to do, as a community, is come up with a way to keep the benefits for actual FW players, but make life extremely difficult for the no skill alts that are just farming easy isk. Doing away with the current system throws the baby out with the bathwater, since I know all of us like being able to actually fund our PVP, especially with the high loss rate that characterizes FW.
I think there are two things that would help combat the scourge of disinterested farming alts. Firstly, timer rollbacks. The harder we make it for you to avoid PVP entirely and still farm LP, the better. Secondly, and this may be more controversial, borrow one of the mechanics from incursions. Namely, you get no LP for the plexes you do until the system is flipped.
Perhaps that is a bit too draconian, and we could always make it some fraction of the LP, say half now, half when the system is flipped, but the whole point is that in order for you to reap the benefits of plexing LP, you have to actually be invested in the outcome of the warzone, instead of just running around empty systems that no one who really participates in FW actually gives a **** about.
FW for the FWers.
You're right, it is too draconian. If we want to root out the farmers we have to do rollbacks, disable stabs/cloaks on plexes and figure out how to pay more LP per ship destruction of a war target to match it with the completed plex. ALSO, give immidiate suspect timer to any neutral warping inside a plex without SS hit.
Edit: I like that the OP brings this up - hopefully someone takes notice..good stuff. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1578
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Philpip wrote: I disagree, if you take the lp out of plexes, then you take the majority of the farmers out of plexes. If you take the farmers out of plexes then the only people left to try to flip systems are the pvp'ers.
The reward for flipping the bunker would have to increase to reflect the effort. This would settle things down and you'd see a lot less yo-yo'ing systems.
I'm all in favour of timer rollbacks, regardless of the above. If you are not going to finish what you started then it should revert to neutral.
I've been there, done that. If I can't make enough isk from plexes, then I'm going to farm missions instead. Less pew for me, and less pew for you too since I won't be out there for you to kill.
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Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
569
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zarnak spent several paragraphs talking about the problems with the Amarr before offering a solution. Perhaps what is wrong with the Amarr is systemic in nature?
I look at Gallente and Caldari and both sides have grown a healthy number of stable small pvp corps. And we deal with the same mechanics as anyone else. Lord knows Gallente gets PVEed to death. Heck, even with Gallente owning 85 systems, the Caldari still do more VP than we do despite them being at T1.
Perhaps part of the issue is your smaller warzone? The bigger warzone for us allows for smaller corps on the Caldari to spread out and not get ROFLstompped by the Gallente blob that lives in the middle of the warzone (Vlill-Nenn-Nisuwa Pipe). Organizations like Old Man Gang, Templis Dragonaors, League of Angry Gentlemen, and Black Talon Force all have a home and are able to sustain growth. High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve . |
GreenSeed
694
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:current system is working fine. it is, too bad stabs allow its abuse. |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
23
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Posted - 2013.09.12 22:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Killing the tier system would be cool, but I don't think farmers would be wiling to switch over to the losing side just because prices are rising. The system would need to be toned down. T2 is the lowest you can go, with maybe only T3 being the highest, but the winning side (based on systems it controls and not system level) gets other bonuses as well.
Such as bonuses only for PvP players. Reduced clone costs (already implemented), reduced repair costs, reduced insurance costs/greater insurance gains, more LP per kill. Some of these would need to be tweaked so people can't abuse them, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.
What I really want is the integration of the two warzones so it's not just two separate 2v2s, but one big FFA. This means that plexes would be under attack by three different nations so farming would become 3x as hard, but the majority of pushes and war efforts will still be unhindered by the two nations not involved.
It would also be impossible (or almost impossible) for one nation to wipe the whole map. Pushing across the map would leave them incredibly vulnerable to attacks from the side. |
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Rabid Disconnection
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
11
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Posted - 2013.09.13 00:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
The ebb and flow of the FW LP system works well in my opinion if you have patience.
So, you are stuck in T1 for a while, that drastically increases the value of each LP for that faction. You're in T4 or T5, sure you are raking in a ton of LP, but it gets devalued pretty quickly. It all seems to balance out for me at some point. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1334
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 00:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:What you're suggesting is to take FW back to the bad old days when no one really gave a **** at all, with the exception of the whole docking rights thing. I can sympathize with the whole fighting the symptoms vs. the cause argument, but frankly mechanics are what drive player behavior in games like this. Implementing things like timer rollbacks make farming that much harder and less profitable, and consequently, that much less pervasive.
What we need to do, as a community, is come up with a way to keep the benefits for actual FW players, but make life extremely difficult for the no skill alts that are just farming easy isk. Doing away with the current system throws the baby out with the bathwater, since I know all of us like being able to actually fund our PVP, especially with the high loss rate that characterizes FW.
.
People would still be compensated for pushing sov. That compensation will just be similar for similar activities. If the system upgrades were interesting enough to hold a system by itself this really wouldn't be an issue. There would be a purpose to having a little fiefdom. As there was a huge thread full of suggestions for system upgrades and CCP didn't act on a single one I don't see the purpose of wasting more time on it.
FW is a closed ended system. If it were open ended we would have seen the temporary cyno jammers come into play. Remember those? They only would have worked for an hour. The concept would have been to throw one up to bash a moon POS. Throw one up again when it comes out of reinforcement. Low sec moons would be a lot more annoying for nullbears to hold onto. I wonder what happened there, hmm?
As it is a closed end system the market has to serve to balance the sides imho. A 6-1 + profit margin doesn't do that. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1334
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 00:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rabid Disconnection wrote:The ebb and flow of the FW LP system works well in my opinion if you have patience.
So, you are stuck in T1 for a while, that drastically increases the value of each LP for that faction. You're in T4 or T5, sure you are raking in a ton of LP, but it gets devalued pretty quickly. It all seems to balance out for me at some point.
It doesn't balance out. Navy Omens sell for twice as much as SFI's but you have to work six times as long to earn them. The math isn't in the underdog's favor. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 01:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
More like kill the alt system, amirite? |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 06:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: Secondly, and this may be more controversial, borrow one of the mechanics from incursions. Namely, you get no LP for the plexes you do until the system is flipped.
Now that idea I like. I'm all for 'you don't get paid until you finish the job'.
It won't completely stop the farmers but they rely on the system actually flipping. |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 06:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Courath Al'viendi wrote: No LP means no one is going to waste six days of time to flip a damn system for a reward that MIGHT not happen.
LP from 1 lvl4 mission = what? 4 plexes? About 1 hour of orbiting buttons?
Run a mission, pew for the rest of the night knowing that merlin in the plex actually wants for fight and isn't a stabbed farmer.
And, my stuff is in 2 stations that will never flip? How many people in Arzad & Sahtogas said that? |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
611
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 12:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: It doesn't balance out. Navy Omens sell for twice as much as SFI's but you have to work six times as long to earn them. The math isn't in the underdog's favor.
Math shouldnt favor the underdog, in any game system you reward players for "winning", achiving some goal. Not for loosing. It's a basic mechanic to have games working.
The balance is not only in the LP market self regulating is also int he fact that more you win the WZC less room you have to plex. Plexes are resources, and the winning side soon have no resources left: when you hit T4/T5 and the only system with "resources" are the 3-4 enemy home system your margin is lowered close to zero, is no longer convenient.
On the contrary the loosing side has the whole warzone avaiable, no need to travel, no need to be in a fleet, more plex than what can be plexed..
This also have o be considerd. Generally plain arithmetic alone is not enough to explain the reality..
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Slade Antonius
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
9
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Posted - 2013.09.13 14:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote: It doesn't balance out. Navy Omens sell for twice as much as SFI's but you have to work six times as long to earn them. The math isn't in the underdog's favor.
Math shouldnt favor the underdog, in any game system you reward players for "winning", achiving some goal. Not for loosing. It's a basic mechanic to have games working. The balance is not only in the LP market self regulating is also int he fact that more you win the WZC less room you have to plex. Plexes are resources, and the winning side soon have no resources left: when you hit T4/T5 and the only system with "resources" are the 3-4 enemy home system your margin is lowered close to zero, is no longer convenient. On the contrary the loosing side has the whole warzone avaiable, no need to travel, no need to be in a fleet, more plex than what can be plexed.. This also have o be considerd. Generally plain arithmetic alone is not enough to explain the reality..
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
559
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Posted - 2013.09.13 14:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:current system is working fine. it is, too bad stabs allow its abuse.
You have to be in the plex uncloaked when it completes to get lp, so stabs, cloaks, empty frigates, etc do not help if enemy or friendly decides to get it all and not sharing
You can sure do some magic tricks to get lp but those are not quite efficient farming anyway. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1579
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 14:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Slade Antonius wrote: That is a broken system and the market is not regulating itself. Of course there needs to be rewards for the winning side but in an MMO where the goal is a lasting game world, the losing side has to have an attainable path to victory or they will quit FW, join the winning side or just not log in.
A good fight is its own reward. If you're in FW for the pvp, which most of us "CLAIM" we are, then you like being at Tier 1 more because the fights land on your doorstep 23/7 AND you can still make enough isk to keep your hangar full of pvp ships.
I think the real complaint is that one side has very little chance of "winning", and no change of rules will alter that. Only players can do that. |
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