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Lilliana Stelles
882
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Posted - 2013.09.12 12:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've wondered for a while if killmails create an escalated sense of violence in the universe, and what the game would be like if it instead just recorded a number of "kills" and "losses", without the elegant record of exactly what was lost.
Would miner ganking still be a big deal if there was no provable way of showing what someone had on them? Would people take screenshots of wrecks and post them?
I'm not sure if killmails have always been in Eve, or if they were added at a later date?
I'm just curious how big of a roll killmails play in encouraging people to kill each other, and how much of it is isk/pew motivated.
I certainly don't want to see them go away. It's a neat feature. But if they weren't there, would things be different? Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
908
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Posted - 2013.09.12 12:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Killmails are not only useful for bragging and exposing stupid fits. They also serve as intel (where you losing ships, what ships, how do you tank, do you kill solo/with small gang/ with blob, etc.). Pointing newbies to relevant kills can be useful for them to understand why shinies != superiority, why dual tank is wrong, and also to show them that humble frig can take much bigger target if fitted and flown properly.
I'm sure that if CCP didn't provide us with their own implementation of killmails somebody would create out of game tool for that. Just as we have fitting tools, fleet/doctrine tools, ISK/hr tools, wallet tools, etc. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
281
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Posted - 2013.09.12 12:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
i have a nagging suspicion that Eve without killmails would be more fun. Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits? |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
The lack of KB would not deter me from PVP or the other way around. I PVP for PVP's sake, I enjoy tactical combat so it would not increase / diminish the amount of PVP I'd get involved in. To me KM's are more of a remember when kind of deal with some intel sprinkled on top. Not required to enjoy PVP but an enjoyable feature in it's own right. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
677
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Posted - 2013.09.12 12:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Killmails are not only useful for bragging and exposing stupid fits. They also serve as intel (where you losing ships, what ships, how do you tank, do you kill solo/with small gang/ with blob, etc.). Pointing newbies to relevant kills can be useful for them to understand why shinies != superiority, why dual tank is wrong, and also to show them that humble frig can take much bigger target if fitted and flown properly.
I'm sure that if CCP didn't provide us with their own implementation of killmails somebody would create out of game tool for that. Just as we have fitting tools, fleet/doctrine tools, ISK/hr tools, wallet tools, etc.
If there were no API hookups, you'd be **** out of luck to create a meanigfull KB. If you also remove the actual loss/killmail from the game, then your idea falls flat out on it's face. People would have to guess what the enemy was fitted with and we all know how well that would end. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
816
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Posted - 2013.09.12 13:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Loss mails are useful though ... it gives you the names of the people that blew you up, so you can plan/plot your revenge accordingly.
Apart from ego polishing, I don't think there's any real benefit to kill mails at all. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4623
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Posted - 2013.09.12 13:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3370
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Posted - 2013.09.12 13:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well the main thing about killmails is the social aspect, it's about sharing the experiences with your mates. Someone links a cool mail, I want to hear the story behind it and just feel happy for them. Or envious for not being there :D
I would change one major thing about KMs- listing destroyed items and their value is stupid. Those items are blown to pieces, it just doesn't make sense that they are suddenly revealed to everybody at the moment of their doom.
This would bring some intelligence back to intel, and some much needed mystery.
. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
751
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Posted - 2013.09.12 15:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Roime wrote: I would change one major thing about KMs- listing destroyed items and their value is stupid. Those items are blown to pieces, it just doesn't make sense that they are suddenly revealed to everybody at the moment of their doom.
This would bring some intelligence back to intel, and some much needed mystery.
supported
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
184
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Posted - 2013.09.12 15:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
My fear is the OP's original post stems from the current fashionable liberal trend to make 'everyone a winner'.
You see it now in childrens little-league games, everyone gets a trophy, even the losers Or you might see it in the fabulous public education system, where its now near-impossible for students to fail a grade, and illiterates graduate. And on..and on...
In short...
Keeping score drives improvement in a competitive system, not keeping score drives stagnation. Not keeping score doesn't remove the competition, it just removes the measures by which people in the competitive system are pushed to improve (or strive to)...
EvE without killmails would be very bad, and the OP should feel very bad for posting a stealth remove KM's thread. If you don't want to be in a competitive game, go play WoW -- but don't kill the competitive game we love. Would you like to know more? |
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embrel
BamBam Inc.
56
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Posted - 2013.09.12 16:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE.
Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos?
Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game.
Here you can win a fight, but not the game. |
Tron 3K
Ship Spinning Industries
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 16:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My fear is the OP's original post stems from the current fashionable liberal trend to make 'everyone a winner'.
You see it now in childrens little-league games, everyone gets a trophy, even the losers Or you might see it in the fabulous public education system, where its now near-impossible for students to fail a grade, and illiterates graduate. And on..and on...
In short...
Keeping score drives improvement in a competitive system, not keeping score drives stagnation. Not keeping score doesn't remove the competition, it just removes the measures by which people in the competitive system are pushed to improve (or strive to)...
EvE without killmails would be very bad, and the OP should feel very bad for posting a stealth remove KM's thread. If you don't want to be in a competitive game, go play WoW -- but don't kill the competitive game we love. Really had to bring politics into it.. GTFO... Typical damn whiny conservative.. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
912
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
embrel wrote:Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game.
Eve is a game, football is a game Fight in Eve = match in football. You can't win Eve, you can't win football. Scores in football make no sense except stroking egos of participants. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Tikitina
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.09.12 17:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Killmails are a form of game supplied Intel that shouldn't exist in this game.
Eve would actually be far better without them. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My fear is the OP's original post stems from the current fashionable liberal trend to make 'everyone a winner'.
You see it now in childrens little-league games, everyone gets a trophy, even the losers Or you might see it in the fabulous public education system, where its now near-impossible for students to fail a grade, and illiterates graduate. And on..and on...
In short...
Keeping score drives improvement in a competitive system, not keeping score drives stagnation. Not keeping score doesn't remove the competition, it just removes the measures by which people in the competitive system are pushed to improve (or strive to)...
EvE without killmails would be very bad . . . don't kill the competitive game we love.
I mostly agree with that, but I think you're making a fatal assumption: the game of EVE Online is a killmail contest. A miner could just as easily say EVE is a mining contest. A mission runner could just as easily say it is a bling contest. An alliance could just as easily say it is a sovereignty holding contest. A CEO could just as easily say it is a members-in-my-corp contest. There are lots of different metrics that we could use to support the argument that a given person or entity was "winning".
Even conceding that it is a killmail contest, there is still the question of "score". Does gang-killing a miner with 5 other people yield as many points as soloing a T3 in your Rifter? Does pwning a noob get us just as many points as fighting off and killing a prepared and battle-hardened veteran with our mining barge? It shouldn't.
Competitive games have very strict rulesets. There are team limits, handicaps, point-valuation systems, etc. All that is to make clear who the winner is, but even in systems like that, there isn't always a clear winner. Sometimes, it's a draw. Sometimes, we put an asterisk next to the "W" to indicate that the question of who won and who lost isn't the whole story in that game.
To declare that killing=victory in EVE might be just as misguided as those Call Of Duty players who run around on a Domination or Sabotage map whoring kills, as if THAT were the objective of the game. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7979
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game.
It also good for making graphs. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4222
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kill mails tell a story. You really want to remove that? . |
SpoonRECKLESS
Caldari Provisions
35
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Posted - 2013.09.12 19:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Killmails mean nothing. People do pvp for the rush the risk the crazy moments of luck and just dumb moves other make. I did pvp for the fun of it. Kill mails or not pvp will always be a part of eve to the day the server dies. I only seeing the server dieing due to mankind being wiped out by aliens.
Fear the stars for they seek to destroy us!!! Blue
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Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.09.12 19:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:. But if they weren't there, would things be different?
My guess is that the only difference would be that instead of seeing lots of links to killmails in the chats, you would start seeing links to posted screenshots of ships blowing up. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
163
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 20:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tron 3K wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My fear is the OP's original post stems from the current fashionable liberal trend to make 'everyone a winner'.
You see it now in childrens little-league games, everyone gets a trophy, even the losers Or you might see it in the fabulous public education system, where its now near-impossible for students to fail a grade, and illiterates graduate. And on..and on...
In short...
Keeping score drives improvement in a competitive system, not keeping score drives stagnation. Not keeping score doesn't remove the competition, it just removes the measures by which people in the competitive system are pushed to improve (or strive to)...
EvE without killmails would be very bad, and the OP should feel very bad for posting a stealth remove KM's thread. If you don't want to be in a competitive game, go play WoW -- but don't kill the competitive game we love. Really had to bring politics into it.. GTFO... Typical damn whiny conservative..
But little Johny is still special even if he did finish last in the race. |
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
163
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 20:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. It also good for making graphs.
Insert graph into spreadsheet, win eve.
The End |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4626
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 20:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side.
Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do?
How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target?
Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know?
Get over yourself.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Dr0000 Maulerant
Mu cows
20
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Posted - 2013.09.12 21:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side.
Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do?
How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target?
Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know?
Get over yourself.
Combat cost effectiveness has never been considered a victory condition before eve. And I'm not just saying that because I'm American.
I also support the reduction of the killboard system, I find it just as masturbatory as I would find an "ore board" or a "transaction board" "production board" etc...
I look forward to the day we can share battle stories though an in-game recording/playback system, with recordings that can be copied and shared like bookmarks. You can howl "EVE has consequences" without context or explanation at whoever you like. This will not make it true. |
CorsairV
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:i have a nagging suspicion that Eve without killmails would be more fun.
not if it leads to kdr whores padding their stats while ignoring all the real pvp. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
240
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Posted - 2013.09.12 22:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Best thing about killmails and killboards: *you're up to engage some (entity/person), quickly look up how he was rollin in the near past, as for example, two hours ago* Also, killmails tell a wonderful story of the rise and fall of corporations and alliances. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5954
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Something tells me that OP has a rather embarrassing KM that he/she is tired of having linked in local.....
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Otto Drezden
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Killboards are a really, really important part of the metagame (intel, social aspect, sources for blog articles, etc) and also create a wonderfully accurate history of your combat experiences in EVE. It is awesome that you have the ability to view the terrible fits and losses you had when starting the game, whether they were from learning to PvP or getting ganked doing something stupid (autopilot during wardec, hurr). Likewise, sometimes you get nostalgic and want to revisit the kills that you are particularly proud of. It's like a space pixel scrapbook of tears (yours and theirs).
TL:DR Killboards are a fantastic part of this game and enrich the community. |
HUGO DRAX
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
9
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Posted - 2013.09.12 23:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Here is a real life killboard, click and you will understand. The picture should speak for itself.
http://www.evanstaxidermy.com/gallery5.jpg
PvP is like going out hunting for big game animal (with the exception that they can maul you if you are not careful)
PvPers need a place to mount their catch, and the Killboards provide that. |
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
6963
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 02:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side. Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do? How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target? Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know? Get over yourself.
+1
The Kboards and war reports are used for more than bragging rights if someone has the mind to think outside the box. I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
Spurty
964
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 02:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Replace kill mails with crest, what coolness!
Current ISK boards are boring and static and barely able to tell the story --- GòöGòùGòöGòÉGòªGòù GòæGòÜGòúGòæGòæGòÜGòù GòÜGòÉGò¬GòÉGò¬GòÉGò¥
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