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Essack Leadae
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.09.13 02:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:i have a nagging suspicion that Eve without killmails would be more fun. I do agree, mostly because people hate lose. If there was no killmails, there would be no recorded losses and so more motivation to take risks for a part of the high-sec inhabitants as they won't be mocked or have to justify any bad pvp history. And so with that, more fights.
But I do agree too that killmails are an indispensable tool for intelligence. But they was better before CCP included implants or the entire fit of a ship, because the players had to give some efforts to get accurate data. I remember the time that I had to read some of the losses of one player to get the entire fit of the ship he liked to use most of the time (only destroyed modules was included in the lossmail), and that I wanted to copy. Now we have everything for no effort and the syndication make sure that this data is available everywhere, it doesn't sound like "EVE" IMO. I see only a mocking competition today and a sort of fight in any fleet just to be sure to be on the kills, especialy since the inclusion of the implants into lossmails.
That is why I still think that new killmails should be made partially anonymous but only if the player want to do so. Giving back some control of his history to the player can help to motivate him to pvp more, or for some of them to try it. Of course, only the name of the loser would be hidden, not his corporation nor his alliance, to keep the ability of getting accurate intel on the whereabout of a war or whatever. With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again. - John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment. CCP should do the same... |
Freakdevil
Aliastra Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2013.09.13 02:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
The very definition of a spreadsheet spaceship game is detail. That detail is what makes this game interesting. Think of it as the guts of a pinata spilled all over the floor after you bashed it nonsensically.
Stay the heck away from the details please.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3389
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Killmails should be replaced with incident reports.
Not every encounter ends in a ship being blown up. What about logistics? What about blockade runners?
Every PVP encounter should result in an incident report and of course a loss or kill is recorded there, but all involved parties and their roles or actions would help.
It would be a great tool for non-combatants too. If you run cargo with travel fits, you should have incidents reports (or a lack thereof) showing escapes from tacklers or bubbles.
On the reverse side, there are also opportunities for the intended victim to turn the table on a failed attacker. Imagine that for every incident report where the noncom ship "got away", the names of those who failed at killing it are also listed. You see, for some people NOT getting killed is how they win at PVP. As both parties have incident reports, it would also allow CEOs to see who is more efficient at other roles without a final binary outcome of "killed/not killed". Efficiency or being green on the board would then be expanded beyond this binary outcome to indicate not some magical number of an end result but also the progress of the attempts.
And even logistics should have a record of "HP recovered" or something like that.
Frankly the killmail should go away, but not the recording of encounters. If they are a detriment, it's only because they are based too much on the kill/loss outcome and not on the numerous other roles and potential (and unpredictable) results that occur in PVP encounters. |
Graabeerd Khagah
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
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Posted - 2013.09.13 03:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Kill mails tell a story. You really want to remove that?
I agree, it's a part of our lore and history when we can look back and laugh at our mistakes. Others have said it provides intel so we can look ahead to the next fight and plan accordingly. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
818
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Posted - 2013.09.13 06:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side. Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do? How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target? Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know? Get over yourself.
how do you know you won ???
Their ship exploding and yours not exploding doesn't give you a clue ?? |
Xia Kairui
Delete Inc. Enigma Project
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 06:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
I normally don't post killmails - why would I want to give everyone free intel?
Sift through enough killmails for a pilot and you can get a good impression on when and where he is flying and what ships he prefers and who his friends and allies are.
If I can deprive a possible opponent of that info - great. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5956
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 19:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
I get it now! OP want to turn Eve into a Little League baseball game! Where no one keeps score, everybody wins, and at the end of the year you get a little trophy for just being who you are.
Now if we could just weasel a pizza party out of CCP after the season is over, that would make this idea just fantastic.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
44189
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 19:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I get it now! OP want to turn Eve into a Little League baseball game! Where no one keeps score, everybody wins, and at the end of the year you get a little trophy for just being who you are.
Now if we could just weasel a pizza party out of CCP after the season is over, that would make this idea just fantastic.
....and be sure to bring our iPads to the matinee film afterwards now that one can. Now the little brats will never learn to sit still for over an hour. Ever. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4635
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 21:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side. Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do? How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target? Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know? Get over yourself. how do you know you won ??? Their ship exploding and yours not exploding doesn't give you a clue ??
We lost 4 cruisers, they lost 2 battleships. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: We lost T1 Cruisers, they lost 2 T1 BS that were faction fit. We won.
We just had a battle and our side lost 34 ships, their side lost 1. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: Our losses were Battleships and cruisers, their loss was a Titan. We win.
How do we determine value?
Answer: Via the information presented in the kill notification, parsed/posted/ and searchable on a kill board.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 22:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
EVE without killmails would be like WoW without combat logs and dps meters.
It seems like a good idea and that maybe people could just play the game and not be dicks to everyone ... but in the end they'll just find new or different ways to be dicks to everyone.
"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
820
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 00:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:embrel wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Why to we keep score in any game? Why do we track statistics in the games and sports we enjoy?
When you can answer those questions you'll begin to understand why kill notifications are, and will continue to be, an integral part of EVE. Because for some the fun only starts if they can stroke their egos? Scores in games are for defining a winner of the game. Here you can win a fight, but not the game. How do you know if you won the fight? Usually by determining the value of losses on either side. Is it now stroking your ego to see how well your opponent did or did not do? How does a merc determine if they have fulfilled their contract to inflict a certain amount of loss on a target? Why would you not want to know this? Or if you don't care, why inflict that point of view on every else that would like to know? Get over yourself. how do you know you won ??? Their ship exploding and yours not exploding doesn't give you a clue ?? We lost 4 cruisers, they lost 2 battleships. Who won?Answer: It depends on their value. Example: We lost T1 Cruisers, they lost 2 T1 BS that were faction fit. We won.
nope
who controlled the field of battle after the shooting stopped ... if they only had 2 ships .. you won if they had other ships that ran away, you won.
if they still have ships on the field
why aren't you still shooting, the fight isn't over. |
Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
eh. KM's are fine. They're useful intel, generally speaking and a modest trophy to wag about among friends.
Of course, there are always those that think that getting a shot in on a blob killmail makes them a pvp'er.
TBH, I think you shouldn't get the loss data if you're in anything bigger than a squadron. :) less whoring, more good fights, I say. ~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |
Jim Era
7528
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 06:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'm so glad NPC's can't link their kills on me. |
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
6975
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 07:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:
nope
who controlled the field of battle after the shooting stopped ... if they only had 2 ships .. you won if they had other ships that ran away, you won.
if they still have ships on the field
why aren't you still shooting, the fight isn't over.
Actually I think you are both right. It depends on the situation. Wardec battles tend to be judged on isk lost. Whoever loses the most is considered the loser in a dec - I beleive this is the general consensus when I speak to peeps about it. Battles in low/null I would think the winner is the one who has control over the battlefield and then maintains or gains control of the system of course.
So I see both being right.
*edit - but this is about km's - and I will side with Ranger on the specific KM"s - I could have an ibis left on the field of battle, does that mean my side won? I say it's isk lost is the determining factor in battles. I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 12:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ranger1 wrote:We lost 4 cruisers, they lost 2 battleships. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: We lost T1 Cruisers, they lost 2 T1 BS that were faction fit. We won.
We just had a battle and our side lost 34 ships, their side lost 1. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: Our losses were Battleships and cruisers, their loss was a Titan. We win.
How do we determine value?
Answer: Via the information presented in the kill notification, parsed/posted/ and searchable on a kill board.
"You lost more. Therefore, I win." Do you see a problem with that mentality? If you do 100 billion damage to me in a war and it takes me years to recover, but I do 1 billion damage to you and annihilate your civilization, then you lost . . . but try fitting that onto a killmail. Now, the loser might say "I did more damage.", but he can't, because he's dead.
How DO we determine value? We don't all use the same method, and I personally don't think that kill mails are intended to determine winners and losers. I could be wrong. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4636
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Ranger1 wrote:We lost 4 cruisers, they lost 2 battleships. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: We lost T1 Cruisers, they lost 2 T1 BS that were faction fit. We won.
We just had a battle and our side lost 34 ships, their side lost 1. Who won?
Answer: It depends on their value. Example: Our losses were Battleships and cruisers, their loss was a Titan. We win.
How do we determine value?
Answer: Via the information presented in the kill notification, parsed/posted/ and searchable on a kill board. "You lost more. Therefore, I win." Do you see a problem with that mentality? If you do 100 billion damage to me in a war and it takes me years to recover, but I do 1 billion damage to you and annihilate your civilization, then you lost . . . but try fitting that onto a killmail. Now, the loser might say "I did more damage.", but he can't, because he's dead. How DO we determine value? We don't all use the same method, and I personally don't think that kill mails are intended to determine winners and losers. I could be wrong. Very true, your objectives determine who won and who lost... usually based on one of two things.
1: Damage/cost inflicted. 2: Territory won or lost.
The first is obviously determine via kill notifications.
The seconds is revealed by the Sov map, however the decisions on whether it is worth your while to continue fighting for a particular system are often based on information revealed in kill notifications.
Not to mention that quite often, even in null, the objective is not to take and hold a system... but to simply raid into it and inflict as much damage/loss as possible for fun and/or profit with no intention of holding the system against reinforcements from the other side.
Even for a solo miner or hauler a kill board is often very helpful in determining what ships were necessary to take you down (and provides clues as to how it was done), and also provides useful metrics to determine if you are losing ISK over all in your occupation if you have a tendency to be targeted by suicide ganks or war decs.
Situations where the information contained in a kill notification (and made easily accessible via a kill board) is not useful on some level are the exception, not the rule. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Adunh Slavy
1248
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kill mails stroke the narcissism of the ego.
They short cut and cheapen some of the "unknown" aspect of the supposedly cold dark univewrse of eve.
They make Eve more of an arcade and less of an environment.
Kill mails are cheesy. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
7004
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 19:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Kill mails stroke the narcissism of the ego.
They short cut and cheapen some of the "unknown" aspect of the supposedly cold dark univewrse of eve.
They make Eve more of an arcade and less of an environment.
Kill mails are cheesy.
Yet, in a 'real world' environment they would most likely exist. Newspapers report on incidents, at times reporting facts on the amount of damage in the amount of money lost/or amount of money needed to repair along with other information.
So I say that if EvE were real (which actually it is) there would be reports on battles, who lost what, isk lost, etc. etc.
So though you think they are cheesy, to many of us they do reflect what could be happening in a real world Environment. I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 20:36:00 -
[49] - Quote
i wrote i lil blog about this actually
http://helpmeobiwan.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/killboard-stats-making-us-averse-to-pvp/
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Andrea Griffin
708
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 22:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
I find that kill mails do the opposite - they actually discourage conflict in Eve. Too many people are concerned about kill / death ratios and isk efficiency. This leads to pilots being more risk averse, as they only want to engage if they know that they can win.
If killmails were removed from the game I bet you'd see people more interested in taking chances, since if they do die there wouldn't be some kind of automatic tally that haunts their egos until the end of time. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
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tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 11:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:I find that kill mails do the opposite - they actually discourage conflict in Eve. Too many people are concerned about kill / death ratios and isk efficiency. This leads to pilots being more risk averse, as they only want to engage if they know that they can win.
If killmails were removed from the game I bet you'd see people more interested in taking chances, since if they do die there wouldn't be some kind of automatic tally that haunts their egos until the end of time.
What I said, he said... |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4640
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:I find that kill mails do the opposite - they actually discourage conflict in Eve. Too many people are concerned about kill / death ratios and isk efficiency. This leads to pilots being more risk averse, as they only want to engage if they know that they can win.
If killmails were removed from the game I bet you'd see people more interested in taking chances, since if they do die there wouldn't be some kind of automatic tally that haunts their egos until the end of time. Pilots who are risk adverse would find some other excuse if kill notifications were removed. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
197
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
The argument that killmails reduce pvp pilots from 'taking chances' and thus reduces pew (rather than encourage it), is false.
It does however tend to reduce pvp pilots from taking stupid chances. And that extra word contains all the difference.
Life is hard, not everyone should get a trophy -- if you lose your little-leage game, you lost. Improve for a trophy. EvE pvp is hard, not everyone should win an engagement. If you lose, fight smarter, or pick your fights better.
EvE pvp shouldn't be a mess of scrubs forever hopping in shitfits and dirtying up space with their wrecks, it should be about learning over time how to fit ships and how to pvp. i.e. what ship can take what, or more importantly, what you cannot.
I am yet to let my killboard stop me from pvp'ing, it (and any good CEO) just give me pause before I engage a target. Would you like to know more? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2796
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:The argument that killmails reduce pvp pilots from 'taking chances' and thus reduces pew (rather than encourage it), is false.
It does however tend to reduce pvp pilots from taking stupid chances. And that extra word contains all the difference.
Life is hard, not everyone should get a trophy -- if you lose your little-leage game, you lost. Improve for a trophy. EvE pvp is hard, not everyone should win an engagement. If you lose, fight smarter, or pick your fights better.
EvE pvp shouldn't be a mess of scrubs forever hopping in shitfits and dirtying up space with their wrecks, it should be about learning over time how to fit ships and how to pvp. i.e. what ship can take what, or more importantly, what you cannot.
I am yet to let my killboard stop me from pvp'ing, it (and any good CEO) just give me pause before I engage a target.
Welcome to the "Everyone is a winner" generation.
That should be my new sig..."When everyone wins, everyone loses"..... |
Druthlen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
OP are you trying to kill eve. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
"Killmails are not important -> EVE needs killmails." non-sequitur
The alternative is that killmails ARE an important factor in determining how and even IF people play. In that case, it is worth looking into HOW and WHY they are such an important factor.
What I am finding interesting in this thread is the notion that EVE has a winner. Would anyone care to elaborate on who is winning? Has anyone won yet? How do we determine who is winning and losing? Strictly by ISK efficiency based on kill reports? |
BoSau Hotim
uitraan diversified holdings incorporated
7014
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 22:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:"Killmails are not important -> EVE needs killmails." non-sequitur
The alternative is that killmails ARE an important factor in determining how and even IF people play. In that case, it is worth looking into HOW and WHY they are such an important factor.
What I am finding interesting in this thread is the notion that EVE has a winner. Would anyone care to elaborate on who is winning? Has anyone won yet? How do we determine who is winning and losing? Strictly by ISK efficiency based on kill reports?
The conversation has been that Eve battles have winners and KM's/KB's/War reports/SOV maps, etc can be used to determine the winners of specific battles/wardecs/wars I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 00:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Welcome to the "Everyone is a winner" generation. That should be my new sig..."When everyone wins, everyone loses".....
It's funny you point that out, because your precious killboard gives out "participation awards" like there is no freaking tomorrow.
Hasn't seemed to stop the "mommy makes me wear a helmet to go on the computer" crowd from flashing their boards. You can howl "EVE has consequences" without context or explanation at whoever you like. This will not make it true. |
Jericho Weller
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 21:33:00 -
[59] - Quote
I think more the scare here is that we'd see a larger influx of new players into the null and low regions. Its my opinion that this scares renters and sov holders. It'd be more of a challenge and even easier to lose ships. I think I'd personally risk more. Not only that but I wouldn't have to get a black ops bridge to low in order to get a fight. I love the idea. From a business stand point for CCP its a great idea. Anything that generates losses means more income. These are just my thoughts. Btw I'm doing this from my phone so if I misspelled something... ZFG |
Jericho Weller
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 21:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
BoSau Hotim wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Kill mails stroke the narcissism of the ego.
They short cut and cheapen some of the "unknown" aspect of the supposedly cold dark univewrse of eve.
They make Eve more of an arcade and less of an environment.
Kill mails are cheesy. Yet, in a 'real world' environment they would most likely exist. Newspapers report on incidents, at times reporting facts on the amount of damage in the amount of money lost/or amount of money needed to repair along with other information. So I say that if EvE were real (which actually it is) there would be reports on battles, who lost what, isk lost, etc. etc. So though you think they are cheesy, to many of us they do reflect what could be happening in a real world Environment.
That's a nice thought but I disagree to an extent. Usually when you blow up a tank in the real world you don't get a notice that says specifically what was in the tank its make up and all around total loss. Usually the tank has taken such a pounding that really any analysis is pointless. And really who cares in the end you lost; I won or vice versa. If you want to hear a report there are bloggers that do write columns on battles.So I disagree. I don't think they'd exist. |
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