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Jobie Thickburger
Intergalactic Mining
4
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Posted - 2013.09.14 18:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, Before I begin, I fully accept that I am the reason I get myself killed, probably 99.47% of the time....
That said, I've been reading through the forums a bit, and was wondering if there's a way to get confirmation on this...
As I understand it, a WH doesn't "exit" until you warp to it. The effect there of being that as long as I stop warping to my Null/C5 static every time I scan it down, I won't be getting these hunter killer squads that seem to show up about 30 minutes after I warp to them and BM their location (Been warping to to confirm type etc).
This in theory won't stop the usuall HS holes that like to pop up every now and then, but if I can stop at least some of the problem that'd help a lot. Anyone know (espically after the Odd1.1 patch) if this is still the case... and if you do happen to find my hole and kill me, Just let me know I was wrong before you do so :)
Thanks! |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1568
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Posted - 2013.09.14 19:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
That is the going theory. With everything I have seen and experienced I believe it to be true. |
Jobie Thickburger
Intergalactic Mining
4
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Posted - 2013.09.14 19:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
THanks, lol, Would explain why I've been getty myself killed so often, First thing i've been doing every day is scanning down my statics, then warping to them and BM'mg them.... Will try it this way to see if I lose a little bit less. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
318
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Posted - 2013.09.14 19:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
You'd have to be 100% sure someone else hadn't already scanned down and initiated warp to the static however. The usual technique is to scan it down first thing then collapse it and not initiate warp to the new static this massively lowers tho doesn't eliminate the chance of getting jumped from your static link* but you could still be linked to from other holes at any time.
* Hostiles could have already come inside and/or someone could already be lurking and scan down the new static ( watch for probes ). |
Jobie Thickburger
Intergalactic Mining
4
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Posted - 2013.09.14 19:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
@ Rroff
THanks for the thought, Once I get my Orca up and running here will have to start doing that. Lack the Tonnage right now to make closing the statics practical, However so far simply not warping to them has been working.
In the past, my issue has always been that as soon as I scan them down, get everything BM'd, less than 30 min later someone comes in.... Considering I have only a C5 and Null static, I may have just increased my life expectancy at least a little bit :) Thanks again! |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
46
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Posted - 2013.09.14 20:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
This is a myth spread around by the hard core PVP groups for a long time.
All wormholes automatically spawn weather you warp to them or not, they made the story up just so people think there safe and not place scouts out. Truth is you have to have your static open whilst your running sites because its better the one you know is open than the one you don't know.
Anyone posting different in here with the ludicrous idea that WH's don't open until they warp to them are just trying to get you killed. |
Kalel Nimrott
Sky Fighters
373
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Posted - 2013.09.14 20:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
I dont know if it is semantics or what, but it is not that you do not warp to the holes that you dont open them, us that you do not initiatewarp to them. |
Navigation Boy
Decadent Behavior Reaper's Grin
2
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Posted - 2013.09.15 01:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Project_Snapshot
Not proven. But this is what the data seems to suggest.
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Jobie Thickburger
Intergalactic Mining
4
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Posted - 2013.09.15 03:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
@ Navigation Boy : Great read... very interesting and surprised at the amount of results they did manage to get.... shows how large of a group of nerds we are :).
So I recently observed (thanks to the new scanning display) an odd anomoly which may help to support the theory as well.
While conducting normal operations in my hole, Noticed the new flashy red icon on my HUD, indicating a new site. Went to grab my scanner to ID it, and about 5 minutes after it appeared, D-Scan picked up a Newbie in a scout ship. Scanning down the site confirmed it to be a K162 connecting to High Sec.
Still can't say i'm completly convinced that they don't open up early, But I'm one hell of a lot closer to at least considering it now.
Either way, IT won't hurt me to NOT fly to them until I need them, if it does work like that Great, if not, Well Its not like i'm being less proactive with my scanning anyway.
Thanks everyone for the great feedback! |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
230
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Posted - 2013.09.15 19:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jobie Thickburger wrote: While conducting normal operations in my hole, Noticed the new flashy red icon on my HUD, indicating a new site. Went to grab my scanner to ID it, and about 5 minutes after it appeared, D-Scan picked up a Newbie in a scout ship. Scanning down the site confirmed it to be a K162 connecting to High Sec.
Still can't say i'm completly convinced that they don't open up early, But I'm one hell of a lot closer to at least considering it now.
Uh, what? Incoming wormhole spawns and someone comes through it, and that makes you think that wormholes open before someone warps to them? When obviously someone warped to it?
The five minute delay is easily explainable if you've ever watched someone who doesn't live in wormholes scan stuff down. He probably warped to it while he was still scanning, and then sat there for a few minutes finishing his scan or picking his nose before he went in.
Easiest way to prove that WHs you don't warp to aren't open is to leave them for a couple days. They'll still be around long after they normally should have expired, unless someone was in your system and opened it for you.
If you've never sat on the k-space side of a wormhole to a busy hisec system, try it sometime. Just sit there cloaked and keep an eye on dscan. You'll be surprised at how long it takes someone to scan down your wormhole, how many people never show up at the wormhole after scanning it down, and how many people show up at the wormhole and then sit there for several minutes. |
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Kalel Nimrott
Sky Fighters
373
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Posted - 2013.09.16 04:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Op, you said FLY TO instead of saying initiate warp to. Big difference. Second, if you have been around long enough you would know what grid fu is. Suffice to say here is that if you do not initiate warp to something, it is not a grid with loaded objects. Once you do, thr grid spawms and the objects keep it loaded till they time out and /or all objects are removed. |
Setsune Rin
Bite Me inc Bitten.
79
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Posted - 2013.09.16 06:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:This is a myth spread around by the hard core PVP groups for a long time.
All wormholes automatically spawn weather you warp to them or not, they made the story up just so people think there safe and not place scouts out. Truth is you have to have your static open whilst your running sites because its better the one you know is open than the one you don't know.
Anyone posting different in here with the ludicrous idea that WH's don't open until they warp to them are just trying to get you killed.
crash your static before downtime, scan it afterward and jump through
your static will have a downtime sig at your end and a post-DT sig on the other |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
120
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Posted - 2013.09.16 07:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
An alternative approach would be to do your mining in cheap ships..
It seems to me like you are running a solo operation, warping Orcas to wormholes might not be the best of plans. U can lose alot of mining barges to make up for an orca.
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Jon Matick
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
24
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Posted - 2013.09.16 07:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:This is a myth spread around by the hard core PVP groups for a long time.
All wormholes automatically spawn weather you warp to them or not, they made the story up just so people think there safe and not place scouts out. Truth is you have to have your static open whilst your running sites because its better the one you know is open than the one you don't know.
Anyone posting different in here with the ludicrous idea that WH's don't open until they warp to them are just trying to get you killed. youre very wrong on this one. it's pretty easily checked too for anyone who cares to, or just observed by people who scan regularly and pay attention. My Blog:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Zara Arran
Negative Density
48
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Posted - 2013.09.16 08:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's very hard to prove whether that is a myth or true. I think it's true (or was true at least), as a year and a half ago I had a loop in my chain back to my home system. My corp mates were doing sites and were checking for sigs regularly... I scanned the chain in the meantime. I scanned all the sigs of our static first, and then warped to the WHs one by one, and it seemed that WH only appeared when I warped to it. At least, then it was discovered. It's not 100% proof, but for me good enough. But yeah, CCP might have changed this in the meantime...
Also, before the changes of immediately seeing a new sig appear (sigh): Dynamic WHs seemed to always be completely new as I warped to them ("has not yet begun its natural cycle..."), while I'm quite sure I didnt always find them immediately.
Don't forget the K162's though. Someone else's static will appear whether you scan them down or not ;) So you aren't 100% safe by not warping to your static.
-á |
Kalel Nimrott
Sky Fighters
373
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Posted - 2013.09.16 09:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
No, it's not hard to prove it. Thank you. |
notha atfast
Jabba Industries INC.
35
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Posted - 2013.09.16 13:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
it's very easy to prove. Crash the static...wait a few hours then warp to the new static. You get the "This wormhole has not yet begun its natural cycle of decay and should last at least another day." means 24+ hours But if you waited out the few hours you should not be able to get that message because your timer would have started already.
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Malception
Cold Moon Destruction.
129
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Posted - 2013.09.16 14:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
This has got me thinking about a difficult experiment. Because of the lack of detail on the system map I'm not certain it could be completed, but not for lack of the experiment being valid. Hell, for all I know this may have already been done and the goal observed.
Anyway, the experiment is to get on grid with an un-spawned wormhole by scanning it down to pinpoint its location on the map then creating a safe at that location. Doing so is the prohibitively difficult step on this experiment, but once that was done have someone warp to the scanned wormhole signature. The pilot on grid would then be able to watch the formation of the wormhole. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1569
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malception wrote:This has got me thinking about a difficult experiment. Because of the lack of detail on the system map I'm not certain it could be completed, but not for lack of the experiment being valid. Hell, for all I know this may have already been done and the goal observed.
Anyway, the experiment is to get on grid with an un-spawned wormhole by scanning it down to pinpoint its location on the map then creating a safe at that location. Doing so is the prohibitively difficult step on this experiment, but once that was done have someone warp to the scanned wormhole signature. The pilot on grid would then be able to watch the formation of the wormhole.
I would imagine just landing on grid is enough, regardless of how you get there.
With an anomoly, you can warp to it and you get the anomoly popup. If you then motored 200km away and made a bookmark and warp to that bookmark the next day for example, you will get the anomoly popup. You didn't warp to the anomoly bookmark, but you did warp to the same grid. |
Malception
Cold Moon Destruction.
129
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Posted - 2013.09.16 14:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I would imagine just landing on grid is enough, regardless of how you get there.
With an anomoly, you can warp to it and you get the anomoly popup. If you then motored 200km away and made a bookmark and warp to that bookmark the next day for example, you will get the anomoly popup. You didn't warp to the anomoly bookmark, but you did warp to the same grid.
True. |
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Zara Arran
Negative Density
48
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Posted - 2013.09.16 14:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
notha atfast wrote:it's very easy to prove. Crash the static...wait a few hours then warp to the new static. You get the "This wormhole has not yet begun its natural cycle of decay and should last at least another day." means 24+ hours But if you waited out the few hours you should not be able to get that message because your timer would have started already.
Forgot about that.. (while mentioning it with the dynamic.. fail ..) [D3NSE] Negative Density |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
230
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Posted - 2013.09.16 21:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Malception wrote:This has got me thinking about a difficult experiment. Because of the lack of detail on the system map I'm not certain it could be completed, but not for lack of the experiment being valid. Hell, for all I know this may have already been done and the goal observed.
Anyway, the experiment is to get on grid with an un-spawned wormhole by scanning it down to pinpoint its location on the map then creating a safe at that location. Doing so is the prohibitively difficult step on this experiment, but once that was done have someone warp to the scanned wormhole signature. The pilot on grid would then be able to watch the formation of the wormhole. Once you're on grid with it, you spawn it.
But if your idea would work, you might be able to do it "easily" by getting a WH to despawn during downtime. It'll spawn a new one in the same place. You might be able to have an off-grid BM saved nearby. Warp to that, then slowboat to the hole. I suspect it'll spawn as if you'd warped to it. |
Xtrah
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
47
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Posted - 2013.09.17 11:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Doesn't spawn before you initiate warp to it. It's simple to prove, just collapse (let's say this is a V911, to c6) it and hope nobody scans it down and warp to it after 25 hours.
If it's there when you warp to your 25 hr old bookmark, you know it didn't spawn itself after you collapsed it, or someone else spawned it at least over an hour after you collapsed it. No Holes Barred - www.no-ho.com |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
580
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 11:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
2010 is calling and wants its threads back! . |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
231
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Posted - 2013.09.17 17:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Xtrah wrote:Doesn't spawn before you initiate warp to it. It's simple to prove, just collapse (let's say this is a V911, to c6) it, scan it down and BM it without warping to it, and hope nobody else scans it down and warps to it.
If it's there when you warp to your bookmark after 25 hours, you know it didn't spawn itself after you collapsed it, or someone else spawned it at least over an hour after you collapsed it. Almost but not quite--would need to wait 26.4 hours on a 24 hour wormhole. Wormholes can have up to 10% variation in duration. |
Borsek
A.A.A Ragnarok.
4
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Posted - 2013.09.17 21:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Empty system. No POS. No players. Lots of sigs. Opens up to your system. Explain.
Thing is, there is no way to prove any of this. Afaik both holes spawn regardless of warps, else how did people find all the different holes, when they were still empty and not being warped to?
In any case, the most reliable way is to crank up sound (yes, eve has sound) and place a scout on your static. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
318
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 21:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Borsek wrote:Empty system. No POS. No players. Lots of sigs. Opens up to your system. Explain.
Thing is, there is no way to prove any of this. Afaik both holes spawn regardless of warps, else how did people find all the different holes, when they were still empty and not being warped to?
In any case, the most reliable way is to crank up sound (yes, eve has sound) and place a scout on your static.
Wandering links - the non-k162 side would still spawn in k-space. As per your example theres a lot of people doing random stuff in w-space could just be someone that logged in scanned everything out, warped to the wh that links to you then decided to logout without jumping in or then exited via another wormhole and so on.
I'm fairly convinced the k162 side doesn't spawn until someone tries to warp to the other side not just for the reason pointed out above about how the deadspace signature lasts indefinitely if not warped to as I've had a number of instances where I've scanned down our wh to update sigs but not actually warped to the static wormhole until quite some time later and after jumping in watched the residents react as if a new signature had appeared - evacing ships from sites (could just be a scout noticing wh ack) but then also dropping probes and scanning down the sig that I've just jumped in from ;)
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
231
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Posted - 2013.09.17 22:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Borsek wrote:Empty system. No POS. No players. Lots of sigs. Opens up to your system. Explain. I will guarantee you that at least one if not more of those "lots of sigs" are wormholes from elsewhere. Easy enough to explain: People were scanning those "lots of sigs" and warped to the WH into your system, then decided not to go through.
Or maybe they did go through, and they're waiting in your system for you to get back to running sites.
Quote:Thing is, there is no way to prove any of this. There are. Sig names, for one--downtime sig on one side, non-downtime sig on the other, proves handily enough that the wormhole didn't spawn both ends at the same time.
Quote:Afaik both holes spawn regardless of warps, You know wrong. Sorry.
Quote: else how did people find all the different holes, when they were still empty and not being warped to? Connections from where they were to where they wanted to be. There are plenty of wormholes that start from k-space and lead into wormhole space. For example, I found a HS->C5 the other day. Once you're there, you can get to anywhere. |
Jon Matick
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
25
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Posted - 2013.09.17 23:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
There are at least 3 good ways to prove this, all of which have been covered here. /thread My Blog:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
79
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Posted - 2013.09.18 03:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:.
If you've never sat on the k-space side of a wormhole to a busy hisec system, try it sometime. Just sit there cloaked and keep an eye on dscan. You'll be surprised at how long it takes someone to scan down your wormhole, how many people never show up at the wormhole after scanning it down, and how many people show up at the wormhole and then sit there for several minutes.
This is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread. Wormholes don't appeal to the public. I blme the difficulty of fitting a scanner on to a standard combat ship. Either you run n alt in front of you an have 2x as much crap to worry about or someone gets to be the probe mule. super exciting stuff Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
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