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flakeys
Antwerpse Kerels Fidelas Constans
1474
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:It looks like Jerry has been AWOL far too long.
Pot meet kettle raw
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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TornSoul
BIG Insidious Empire
146
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:Even if you have 20b with them that doesn't make them legit. You give them isk, they write 20 on a screen. Then every week they write a higher number, 21 for example. But you don't actually have the isk, you lost that when you gave it to them, what they're giving you back are increasing amounts of theoretical debt which will never be repaid.
Suggest you check Jerry T Pepridge's posting history in MD - And see how many of his posts have "20B" in them |
Salome Musashi
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
9
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Posted - 2013.10.01 04:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
What, nobody's yet made a post offering the OP 20% a month interest, initial investment minimum 10b? |
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
1
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Posted - 2013.10.01 16:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Troy Tyrion Lanister wrote:I personally can make say 5% on my money in a short time. Surely a large enterprise can scale that by a huge number. I googled what you said and found some scams but i dont see why the concept is inherently a scam.
Sadly it doesn't work like that. It is easy to make 5% (or 500%) on small amounts but very, very hard to make that on large amounts. Most eve businesses are fairly time intensive and you can't just add an indefinite number of new businesses to your portfolio to scale up your business earnings indefinitely unless you have a corresponding indefinite amount of time. There are very, very few businesses that can absorb hundreds of billions in capital with a) a workload that is acceptable, and b) a decent return, partly because there is a huge amount of isk in eve and a great deal of competition for the high volume, low workload markets. A year or so ago, Tornsoul (who runs a longstanding investment bank with c. 250bil of capital) asked on MD what the largest amount would be that a business plan could return a 1% profit on per month. The best answer was something slightly over 10 trillion but this was achieved through a very active use of only 100bil (earning 100% returns per month, equalling 1% on 10 trillion) rather than through using the whole thing. It seems that if you are going to actively manage isk, there comes a point at which the most efficient thing to do is just leave most of it to one side and extract as much profit as you can from a smaller amount. Which leads to a second point. Since there is little, or even negative, added value in utilising very large amounts of capital over utilising smaller amounts this raises the question as to why any bank manager would want to raise very large amounts and then give most of the profits to his or her customers, rather than raising a much smaller amount and keeping almost all the profit for themself. The return on time invested for a bank manager managing very large sums are exceedingly poor, to the extent that it is a bad economic decision to run a bank in the first place. This obviously leads people to suspect that those who want to run banks intend to profit from them in other ways.
I think there are two things going on:
1. There is a limit to how much one person, or a small group of people coordinating, can do at once. Sure, you have 100 trillion, but you can't dominate Jita, Amarr, Dodoxie and Rens effectively if you are one person. There are just too many things going on to keep track of them all, even for mega spreadsheet super geniuses.
2. There is a limit to how much isk can really control. WIth 100 trillion isk, I bet you could buy up and control certain portions of the faction item market in a trade hub. You might even be able to heavily manipulate the market for key goods, but there's an efficiency gradient here. It would take considerable work to fully utilize that 100 trillion, and receive a useful return on it. Especially on goods that you can just make more of (which is why faction, officer, and other things that rely on RNG drops might be the best target for this kind of raw isk).
That said, I'm a poor sob who would do unspeakable things for 1 trillion isk, let alone 100 trillion, so my understanding of what you can do with that much money might be limited.
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Troy Tyrion Lanister
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2013.10.01 22:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
flakeys wrote:flakeys wrote:Kethas Protagonist wrote:A month-old toon (that joined a corp less than an hour after creation, suggesting it's not simply a new player) with no post history starts a thread hawking Phazer 2.0, and nobody calls him out on it? Jeez, the MD immune system isn't what it used to be. But but ...but he's fcon he CAN'T have any bad intentions ..... ' Ran into general newbold in our Alliance channel today , so this confirms that surely people from fcon can't have any bad intentions . Oddly enough he seemed less pleased with seeing a ''formiliar'' face as me .... might be because i like to catch up on old stories in public channels
lol Flakeys . I've seen you lurking around.
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Troy Tyrion Lanister
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2013.10.01 22:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:There have been four notable banks in EVE so far (not counting BMBE) - EIB, FuryBank, EBANK and DBANK.
EIB: probably a Ponzi scheme from the start
FuryBank: lost assets during the fall of Fountain, lost access to assets in Fountain, lost its previous business model of supplying POS fuel to Fountain, owner had two (?) private mothership losses in the same timeframe - initially Fury Trader seemed set on trying to recover from these blows but eventually he went the scam route instead. The end of 0.0-related investments on MD.
EBANK: lost significant assets in failed investments (KIA). CEO had real-life issues and decided to rather convert the ISK into $$$ than wait for the full realization of just how broke the bank really was (full audit of the bank's finances had been scheduled for some time) and try to fix the mess. During liquidation of the remaining parts it became clear that the bank's IT manager had also prepared a theft by granting himself account balances without depositing corresponding ISK.
DBANK: turned from a two man operation into a one man operation; took on more commitments than it could handle; Shortly after DBANK had suffered a major theft by an employee (Xabier), Shar accidentally the bank's central database (as he was afraid that customer details might be exposed through a mistake in server configuration). Owner seemed initially willing to reconstruct the database and reopen the bank. Eventually he went the scam route instead - probably after realizing that on top of having lost their account/transaction database (with no recent backups available) the bank had been broke for quite some time and there was no realistic way to recover.
There's a lesson to be learned here. Banks in EVE don't work. Trust isn't even the core issue - the sequence is rapid growth -> financial failure -> burnout -> scam.
Both EBANK and DBANK tried to limit growth by lowering interest rates - but even at 1.5%/month EBANK got swamped with ISK.
So far this is one of the few responses actually responding to what i posted.
Having thought about it a LOT since i posted that, it does seem that eventually, greed would get the better of most players , and even if it didnt get the better of ONE player, this sort of operation would eventually demand many people to keep it going, and one bad egg would screw the whole deal.
It still seems like a valid concept as anything in eve could be turned into a scam. A corp, a market order, a contract, a mission, anything. The "how" is more the issue than the "if" i still am thinking.
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Troy Tyrion Lanister
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2013.10.01 22:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
totally off topic... i never understood this mentality. Sluts don't "deserve" to be raped. Could they dress differently? Sure. Could they act differently? Sure. But they don't "deserve" criminal abuse. Dont' get me wrong i don't lose much sleep over morons getting screwed over. |
Troy Tyrion Lanister
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2013.10.01 23:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
Too bad there isn't multiquote on this chat forum (or if there is I dont see it)
But thanks to the people giving reasoned responses.
The sumary seems to be:
1. "The Concept is hypothetically sound but......" 2. "You cant maintain the high returns as the ISK amounts become huge to continue the payouts". 3. "This leads to (even if the original goal wasnt a scam) to failure / scams.
EVen with my tiny bankroll (even just between the time of that first post and this post) my own returns while still high, im starting to run out of places that Im aware of to keep making the same high returns (and my bankroll is a joke).
So how do "real" banks pay 2% on interest? Making money just shuffling papers in real life is a HELL of a lot harder than it is in eve. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4223
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Posted - 2013.10.02 04:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Troy Tyrion Lanister wrote:But they don't "deserve" criminal abuse. Dont' get me wrong i don't lose much sleep over morons getting screwed over.
By playing any game, you are explicitly consenting to be bound by the rules defining the magic circle that makes a game separate from reality. (Check out GM Hormonia's post on the subject.) This is why you don't go to the gallows for Regicide every time you kill a Queen in a chess game.
In EVE, scamming is within the rules defining the magic circle. Therefore, you have explicitly consented to allow people to attempt to scam you. Ganking is within the rules, so you have explicitly consented to allow people to attempt to gank you. You have explicitly consented to allow people to do anything to you within the confines of the magic circle we call the game universe. You may withdraw this consent at any time by not playing.
The parallel you tried to draw is as invalid as it is offensive.
Troy Tyrion Lanister wrote:EVen with my tiny bankroll (even just between the time of that first post and this post) my own returns while still high, im starting to run out of places that Im aware of to keep making the same high returns (and my bankroll is a joke).
Seems odd since making money shuffling papers in even is a HECK of a lot easier than it is in real life.
In real life, banks make money by lending money out at a higher interest than they are paying to their creditors (depositors). They are able to do this because there is a large supply of safe debt for them to buy. EVE does not have that large supply of safe debt for a host of reasons, and so EVE banks quickly run out of quality debt available for purchase, and are stuck even if they weren't interested in scamming. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1064
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Posted - 2013.10.02 07:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Troy Tyrion Lanister wrote:The Fukuzawa wrote:You deserve to lose isk if you invest with them lol. totally off topic... i never understood this mentality. Sluts don't "deserve" to be raped. Could they dress differently? Sure. Could they act differently? Sure. But they don't "deserve" criminal abuse. Dont' get me wrong i don't lose much sleep over morons getting screwed over. Scams usually rely on the victim's very own greed to succeed. |
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