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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Kraven Drakenovic
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
I have noticed 2 destinct camps in this debate:
1) the EFT Warriors are all Hur Hur they are now l33t
2) the ppl actually persisting using hybrid blasters and rails. And screaming for ccp to recognise the actual fault
YER eft is a great tool. It does not however replicate realtime combat situations as constantly changing transversals and angular velocities
Yeah these changes look awesome on Eft
But when was the las time u sat still while someone is taking pot shots at your hull?
I have an idea go use a megathron in a lvl 4 with 425 mm guns on it and try and do sufficient damage to remove a BS before your cap bottoms out its like throwing rocks at the sea hoping to fill it up. Sure it will work. But your gunna be there a LONG time.
" Your group of 425mm Railgun II misses (target) completely
If i had a 100 isk for everytime that was broadcast i'd own jita |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
6
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:27:00 -
[152] - Quote
These changes seem about right. Give hybrids a significant, but not ridiculous, buff. Then if there's still an issue with particular ships, you can tweak the ship stats (or bonuses) in the next iteration. If you make the hybrid buff itself so ridonkulous that ALL hybrid boats are suddenly feasible, then some hybrid boats will be ridiculously OP.
GJ CCP |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
215
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:28:00 -
[153] - Quote
With further analysis, the change/boost that will have the most effect was the hybrid grid reduction - Increases the viably of active tanking setups somewhat (though as long as neuts remain in the game as they are I don't think i'll be doing active tanking on sub cap gallente... ever). Tracking... not enough, there is little reason why blasters should not be able to hit ships of equal signature, in an orbit at optimal range for 100% accuracy. Some of us understand for this to be possible the tracking formula may need to be re-written?
As for speed, unless there's a mass reduction bonus I didn't read, will it really be enough? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
47
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:30:00 -
[154] - Quote
Since you agree that the ships and armor tanking needs to be looked at as well can you balance one or two ships along with these changes? |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:30:00 -
[155] - Quote
The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly. |
Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:31:00 -
[156] - Quote
Who the hell snipes over 150kms? -áThey'll just warp on top of you.-á |
Ancy Denaries
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
9
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:31:00 -
[157] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:No cap usage reduction? Reading comprehension. You might want to look into it. |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:32:00 -
[158] - Quote
Reilly Duvolle wrote: Now, a speedboost certainly is a good start, but you cant make Gallente ships faster than minmatar without breaking the lore.
Then let them make new lore, cant they say that some gallente engineer have designed a new superior propulsion system for gallente ships that make them faster but less agile than minmatar ships? |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
Garbad theWeak wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Garbad theWeak wrote: - hybrid snipers are once again top in the game. At 200k, they outperform even lasers, and shockingly, caldari are the best. I think hybrids are officially fixed. You can debate if armor snipers are still better, but its competitive, especially the naga. They also should easily outrange pulses now.
First off, 200km sniping is a dinosaur strategy for obvious reasons. The fact they "easily out-range," a short-range weapon system shouldn't be an issue. In what way does this "fix," rails? Why would you choose to abandon a mael for a rokh because of these changes? Would you ever think that an eagle was a better choice than a zealot for sniper hac in light of these changes? If your answer is "yes," to either of those you either know something Tallest isn't telling us, or you're completely off-base. Obviously, but if things change caldari hybrids are now the kings of 200k+ sniping. And that's it. For 100k sniperhacs, eagle is still the worst (lowest dps, EM hole, superfluous range). For 150k BS, maels still dominate. For brawlers, both nanopest and hellcat still dominate hybrid platforms.
Thanks for making my point. 200km sniping is not a niche worth having on any ship. Rails, hybrids in general, are in no way "top in the game," due to the listed changes. In-fact they're all still sub-par to their laser and especially projectile alternatives.
Are you changing your mind or just insisting that 200km snipers are better than we all know them to be? |
Ager Agemo
I N E X T R E M I S Fidelas Constans
9
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:33:00 -
[160] - Quote
I came! D: |
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Alex Harumichi
Gradient Electus Matari
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:33:00 -
[161] - Quote
As others have said, it's a nice start but probably isn't enough. The inherent problem is that blaster ships are armor-tanked passively, and as such as quite slow to get up close before they start doing any damage (the small agility and speed bump given here won't solve that). When compared to the huge operational range of ACs and (especially) pulse lasers with Scorch, it's rare to be able to get into range to do proper blaster damage. And if by some miracle you do, that damage isn't all that much more than the aforementioned ACs, pulses etc which have been hammering at you all the time while closing in.
Blasters work if you land right on top of someone and are able to immediately scram and web them -- and even then, with the reduced web effectiveness we have now, it's not a given.
Honestly, I think that Scorch and (Barrage? The usually used t2 AC ammo) are just too good, in comparison. They give utterly huge operational ranges to both ACs and pulse lasers. Compared to those, blasters aren't worth using, even with these moderately conservative boosts. Hate to say it, but they need a nerf.
Sure, the boost is welcome. I just don't think it makes up for the overpowered nature of ACs and pulse lasers (with certain ammo) in comparison.
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Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
2
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:34:00 -
[162] - Quote
Great to see CCP address the issue and obviously they are tracking on the fact that the ships using them are all jacked up. Unless this is addressed all these changes are frankly a minor band-aid, but I'll add a few more 2 cents on the table:
1) Why is the Mrym and the Ishkur not gettting the speed/agility boost? You can't tell me they are too fast already and the poor Myrm needs some help.
2) Since all the other weapon systems seem to have a unique capability such as either not using cap, or no ammo needed, change of damage type, or missiles don't miss (for the most part); how about giving Hybrids something special as well. Like INSTANT AMMO changes like scripts. This would help in shifting ammo types to deal with ranging which is not realistic now with that 10 second delay.
3) Will all these tracking increases make frigs unable to tackle without being popped? |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
257
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:35:00 -
[163] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote: So, the reason to use beam lasers is now... oh wait, there's none.
Don't feel so bad, after the changes there will still be no reason to use Rails ether.
Scorch, Heavy Missiles and Artillery are the long range weapons in the the game.
They should look into that. |
Alex Harumichi
Gradient Electus Matari
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:36:00 -
[164] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly.
This, pretty much. Right now the fastest hulls (Minmatar) also have the borderline-overpowered weapon systems (ACs). Guess what people fly in close-range combat?
...and of course, in addition to being the fastest hulls by numerical stats, Minmatar also shield-tank. Gallente ones are significantly slower and are forced to armor-tank (which means plates because of the non-working nature of pvp active tanking, which means extra speed penalties). It doesn't work. |
Perdition64
The Xenodus Initiative. ORPHANS OF EVE
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:37:00 -
[165] - Quote
Ancy Denaries wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:No cap usage reduction? Reading comprehension. You might want to look into it.
Actually, that wasn't there until that post, alerting CCP Tallest to his mistake, which got him to change the blog to include it.
You might want to work on your reading comprehension too. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
3
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:37:00 -
[166] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Perdition64 wrote: hurricane vs brutix this is a good summary of why pvp'ers generally stick with AC platforms. - incredible falloff - better tracking - no cap use - minnie ships are the fastest - while tank remains on par with all other ships this is overpowered. you have to give people a reason NOT TO fly an AC boat at medium/close ranges. remember, one scram and the blaster boat is dead in the water....AC boat is still doing significant damage at 25km, medium blasters dont work past 10km.
And this. Max gank fitted Brutix overloads 965 DPS without implants, Hurricane does 905 DPS or 821 DPS with amazing neuting power while outperforming in nearly every other way (muuch faster even after the change, able to deal good damage outside of scram range etc) |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:38:00 -
[167] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:With further analysis, the change/boost that will have the most effect was the hybrid grid reduction - Increases the viably of active tanking setups somewhat (though as long as neuts remain in the game as they are I don't think i'll be doing active tanking on sub cap gallente... ever). Tracking... not enough, there is little reason why blasters should not be able to hit ships of equal signature, in an orbit at optimal range for 100% accuracy. Some of us understand for this to be possible the tracking formula may need to be re-written?
As for speed, unless there's a mass reduction bonus I didn't read, will it really be enough?
I agree. It's like instead of hybrids being really crappy, they are now just plain crappy. They will be a bit better, but there is other weapon platforms that simply will do the job better. |
Delicious Bacon
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:39:00 -
[168] - Quote
gfldex wrote:
In my eyes the root of all evil started at the very beginning of EVE when 4 races got introduced that where ment to fill the same role without being redundant. Nobody would argue about the inferiority of Apocs compared to Hulks because those different factions ships are meant to fulfill a different role. If you don't give up on the concept of having the same role for different ships or weapon systems you will just keep shifting FotMs around.
And that is what we like to call "balance". It's a b#@$% isn't it?
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Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
23
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:40:00 -
[169] - Quote
Llyandrian wrote: The huge spike in hail volume last week 4 million units in one trade is more than a typical month and implies a leak.
Yes, you can read about it here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24631
If you read more in the forums you could've taken part in that ammo price speculation! The most relevant part is the link in that post entitled "UPDATE: Winter patch preliminary specifics!", linking to the third page. Most changes mentioned in the blog have been available there... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:46:00 -
[170] - Quote
here are the fixes for hybrids:
blasters:
concept shotguns (short range arties...)
1. Increase base damage by 50% 2. Decrease rate of fire by 30% 3. Increase falloff by 15% 4. increase tracking by 37.5%
railguns: Concept long range auto cannons
1. Increase base damage by 15% 2. Increase rate of fire by 15% 3. decrease activation cost by 40% 4. increase tracking by 37.5%
ammo:
Simular boost that projectile ammo got
concept choice between what damage type you want to do between thermal and Kinetic (i.e. antimater does 80% thermal damage 20% kin damage, uranium does 80% kin damage and 20% thermal damage)
also include a tracking bonus built into the ammo
Caldari boost: remove the optimal range bonus for hybrid turrets and replace with a rate of fire bonus
gallente boost: remove the falloff bonus and tracking bonus and replace with a speed pulpusion moduel mass reduction per level
change the internal rep bonus to include a bonus incomming remote rep
General fix: change the speed reduction affect on armor rigs and replace with an agility reduction change reload time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds |
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Jeffrey Powel
My Horse is Amazing
3
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:55:00 -
[171] - Quote
And after that hybrid will be overpowered. Ok for a boost, but don't joke. BTW i like the concept to have 2 close range ammo whith different kin/therm %, very nice idea. |
Alex Harumichi
Gradient Electus Matari
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:55:00 -
[172] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote: So, the reason to use beam lasers is now... oh wait, there's none.
Don't feel so bad, after the changes there will still be no reason to use Rails ether. Scorch, Heavy Missiles and Artillery are the long range weapons in the the game. They should look into that.
Yup. Scorch, in particular, is stupidly overpowered.
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Hentes Zsemle
EVE Corporation 21123151
2
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:56:00 -
[173] - Quote
Theese are not the changes you are looking for. |
Iohet Nolafew
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
9
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Posted - 2011.10.31 16:58:00 -
[174] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly.
Exactly. Change should be applied to Angel ships, as well.
Katrina Bekers wrote: You're really unable to give our race some EXCLUSIVE love, aren't you? You feel this urge to buff the already overused Minmatar or the ubiquitous Caldari in the meanwhile, huh?
No one said it was a Gallente buff. Half of the Caldari ships are basically useless. They're fat, slow, shield ships that fit no doctrine and do laughable damage. They suffer the same problems as Gallente, except when you ignore weapon system slow armor ships are acceptable while slow shield ships are not.
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Faelyn L'Darcassan
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:00:00 -
[175] - Quote
Since it has been mentioned that Gallente ships have trouble getting into range in the first place, how about giving them a mwd bonus? like +10% mwd speed per level? wouldn't that help? once in range, they'd scram/web their target and melt them with blasters? |
Xavier Linx
Omni Research
2
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:01:00 -
[176] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Would recommend giving each of the t2 ammo's different bonuses. The game is better when the feel and behaviour of races is distinctive.
+1 Though I think this is a great start,
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Archetype 66
Pleasure and Pain Ares Protectiva
3
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:01:00 -
[177] - Quote
All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier
How does it work ? I'm not comfortable with turret formulas and how bonus works (Turret + Skills + Ship Bonus+ Riggs + Implants etc...)* But does a +10% to Damage modifier means mandatory +10% DPS...I'm not sure about that and I feel that it can be more...
* I had read an excelent post about how bonus work and how they apply (Skills > Riggs with penality or not) but I can't find it anymore. Anyone can link it or PM it to me. Tvm ! |
Jeffrey Powel
My Horse is Amazing
3
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:07:00 -
[178] - Quote
Faelyn L'Darcassan wrote:Since it has been mentioned that Gallente ships have trouble getting into range in the first place, how about giving them a mwd bonus? like +10% mwd speed per level? wouldn't that help? once in range, they'd scram/web their target and melt them with blasters? Do you realise the speed a 10% mwd speed give to a ship? |
Tashanaka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:07:00 -
[179] - Quote
I'm not convinced this will fix hybrids. Sure they will be easier to fit, use less cap, and L/M/S blasters have 20% better tracking, however, they've buffed the tracking of other short range weapons by 50% which seems to nullify the blaster bonus.
+10 speed boost doesn't seem like a big change (Deimos goes from 198m/s to 208m/s) and with a T2 AB it'll go 20m/s faster than current. Blaster boats will still be kited to death by Pulse & AC boats without any way to applying DPS while the Pulse & AC boats can apply DPS. Blasters will still be a very situation weapon system, thus I'd still rather use my Zealot or train for a 'Cane than fly a Deimos.
"...The goal is to make them better at what they already do, not to change their roles. Blasters should do high damage at short range. Railguns should do average damage at long range..."
Seems CCP is enforcing LORE over a real buff to hybrids without taking into consideration the reality of how EVE really plays.
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Holy Cheater
Monks of War DarkSide.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:08:00 -
[180] - Quote
Changes to hybrid turrets are positive, but not sufficient. In fact, they are far from it.
The blaster boats would still have similar damage with far less range than other turret weapons and with armor tank which will further degrade their capability to catch someone.
Quote: Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty
This stuff alone gives a hell of a lot of boost to autocannons comparing to this hybrid "balancing". |
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