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Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
250
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Posted - 2013.09.27 17:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have to warn CCP that auto tractor structure, as described in presentation yesterday, is extremity bad idea as it would have negate repercussions on multiple aspects of eve game play:
1) devaluation of salvage and loot items
As it is now looting and salvaging, best done in noctis, is high action per minute activity. But this new structure, in combination with automated salvage drones, makes it de facto AFK activity.
Given that salvage and loot have highly competitive market where labour theory of value holds true, reducing labour investment in looting and salving process will result in appropriate reduction of price of loot and salvage items, and thus reduction of income for people that do in traditional way, with ships.
2) undermining profitability of mining
I would estimate that over 50% of your average mission/anom loot and salvage value comes from mineral reprocess value of the loot. In case of belt rats that percentage is even higher.
As it is looting is already more isk/time efficient way of obtaining minerals then mining itself. For example if I loot your average Sansa Forsaken Hub IGÇÖll get something like 10-15 million isk worth of minerals. As I can loot that anom in less then 5 min in my noctis I get ~150 M isk/h in minerals. Compare that with mining ABC with perfect skill and boosts that gives measly 20-25 M isk /hour.
This discrepancy in mineral income is tolerable now because: A) loot GÇ£fieldsGÇ¥ are not as ready available as mining belts B) looting and salvaging is highly labour intensive activity that require full player concentration and large amount of APM to do time efficiently, while mining is AFK activity easy to multibox
This new tractor structure, when combined with salvage drones, effectively removes point B as it makes looting and salvaging AFK activity, much like mining is now. It kind of makes mining pointless as your average 0.0 ratter will get more minerals doing belts with those structures anchored then any miner would ever dream of getting from those same belts. We would effectively get dronelads mineral poop fiasco all over again, i.e. mining with guns.
3) undermining noob income
For a long time good way for noob in eve to make isk is to salvage L4 and 0.0 anoms after more experienced players kill the rats for bounties. Experienced players were happy to allow this because they often did not want to bother with reshipping, or found salvaging/looting overly click intensive for their taste. However if this new structure allows them to get all the loot with no effort other then anchoring a structure they will be much less inclined to let some noob salvage their anom/L4.
---
Frankly I think this idea of adding another AFK aspect to eve economy is so bad is should be abandoned entirely. However if CCP insists this feature has to go in I would propose several options to balance it in a way that would minimise negate aspects: - tractor range could be short, say no more then 25 km, roughly as T2 tractor beams - or make them so they can be only used once so that when combined with their build cost salvaging in this AFK way would be more expensive then current active salvaging - similarly if those structures can be used multiple times operational cost could be generated by some fuel needed to run them, similarly how POS need fuel to work. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.09.27 17:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gods forbid we actually wait to see real stats and numbers on the thing before we start bitching about it and preaching doom and gloom. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
954
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Posted - 2013.09.27 17:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Gods forbid we actually wait to see real stats and numbers on the thing before we start bitching about it and preaching doom and gloom.
Not everything is a balance problem. Sometimes, it's a design problem, and we already have the design in front of us. If at the keyboard salvaging is still worth doing then this new tractor/loot structure is pretty much worthless.
If the new tractor/loot structure is worth using, then why would anyone bother using a dedicated looting/salvaging ship? |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
233
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Posted - 2013.09.27 17:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
If the new modules are lootable by all... Just saying.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
63
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Posted - 2013.09.27 17:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:If the new modules are lootable by all... Just saying. I endorse this product and/or service. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 17:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:If the new modules are lootable by all... Just saying. Wrecks are can be looted by anyone anyway so I don't see how is that relevant or changed? Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
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Posted - 2013.09.27 18:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Very much this. The mineral influx of these can and will get out of control. As it is now, the majority of wrecks are most likely never opened. Without no available data I'll just guess 70-80% of modules are never looted.
This anchorable could easily double the mineral influx from reprocessing stuff as anom grinders and missioneers start dropping these normally. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1586
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Posted - 2013.09.27 18:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Gods forbid we actually wait to see real stats and numbers on the thing before we start bitching about it and preaching doom and gloom. Not everything is a balance problem. Sometimes, it's a design problem, and we already have the design in front of us. If at the keyboard salvaging is still worth doing then this new tractor/loot structure is pretty much worthless. If the new tractor/loot structure is worth using, then why would anyone bother using a dedicated looting/salvaging ship?
Because they still have to salvage the wrecks with something. They still have to haul the loot out with something. In most cases where this thing becomes time and cost effective, that's not your mission ship.
We don't know how many wrecks this thing pulls at once; we don't know its tractor range; we don't know how much loot it can hold; we don't know what skills it requires.
We know literally nothing pertinent about it to even call it a bad idea yet.
Perhaps it may have also evaded you to consider that this thing may be a boon for solo salvagers. There are always going to be people who do not care to loot and salvage their wrecks under any circumstances, since they want to get to the next mission. They don't want to wait on this new doohickey, and they don't want to have to make extra trips hauling loot and salvage. In these cases, the solo salvager does like always, only now he pops one of these into cargo and fits a full rack of salvagers, instead of any tractors of his own. He does more sites faster, and becomes competitive in a flooded noobie market.
Of course, this is also assuming these things can fit into and can be scooped up by anything smaller than an indy hauler.
Packaged size is yet another number we don't have. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1586
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:If the new modules are lootable by all... Just saying. Wrecks are can be looted by anyone anyway so I don't see how is that relevant or changed?
Yes, they can, if you enjoy suspect timers and being shot by anyone. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Kara Trix
PVE Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
The nice thing about a Noctis is the bonus stats with Rigs and Salvager II mods.
I don't use salvage drones anymore because they don't work nearly as well as my noctis... night and day difference.
Truly the Pro Salvager alt nothing to worry about, as the Noctis is amazing and even adds a bit of DPS with the 5 hob II's.
When I salvage , I want the best chance I can to get the wreck goods.
This new add seems very cool though for the solo mission runner for sure.... plus it's a new toy! |
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
404
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Posted - 2013.09.27 21:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
don't forget the introduction of the Noctis is a pretty recent thing which also had an effect on the economy at the time, yet nobody minds this. Lets just all wait and see how the thing works in practice, before condemning it as heresy.
Plus meta loot refining has been nerfed into buggery, and lets face it loot drops just aren't as good as they used to be, until you get to null. You'd have to be feeling pretty confident and secure in yourself to deploy one of these things in null or low as anyone can just steal your salvage from right under your nose. At least you could warp off in a noctis. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
frankly i havent read everything but looting and salvaging isnt much work atm either way with a noctis 8 tractors and 5 salvage drones get it done pretty good afk |
Oswaldos
Sine Nobilitatis
7
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Posted - 2013.09.27 23:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well i see the new tractor device as both having pros and cons.. the big con i see is its a juicy target for HS ninja salvager... you might not be willing to fire in the rifter stealing loot out of 1 of your cans but in coms and well tanked indy ship swipes all your loot you might be more willing to take pot shots.. which means your more likely to get tackled and pointed by some high sec ninja looting corp.. equals more pew.. Plus if they are easy to destroy and only give a suspect flag then i suspect you will have people hunting these things just for the tears.. assuming they cost a fair bit. |
Gigan Amilupar
Legion of Darkwind
19
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Posted - 2013.09.27 23:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sorry to say, but I don't agree with just about anything said by the OP.
1) Devaluation:
A structure that tractors wrecks is not going to reduce the value of salvage and loot. Yes, it may potentially increase the speed at which salvage is gathered, but certainly not to the point of creating a massive influx of salvage and loot on the market which is what would be required for a price drop. The availability of salvage/loot on the market is a directly linked to the supply, and supply is determined by how much can be gathered in a period of time; It has nothing to do with APM. I highly doubt this is going to allow players to blaze through salvaging and looting missions to the point that we see any kind of significant price drop. Much less if this does make salvaging/looting an AFK activity, because people who AFK while doing things don't exactly set speed records. Finally, even if salvage and loot was able to be quickly gathered by players it's still not going to reduce time by a huge extent because a large portion of that time is determined by generation of wrecks; That is to say, if it cuts your salvage/loot time by half from 20mins to 10, it doesn't really matter because your still spending an hour going through that L4 to create all those wrecks.
2) Undermining of mining profitability.
I'm going to come out and say it right now, there is absolutely no way that half of ones income from running missions comes from reprocessing loot. Now admittedly, I have far from good reprocessing capabilities. Probably about the worst. But the reality doesn't change, the value of your L4 probably runs something like Bounty>Phat loots>salvage (salvage can overtake loot if your lucky)>crap loot reprocessed into minerals (this is of course excluding officer drops and any other shenanigans as a highsec L4 is what I'm using as my template, seeing that highsec is where most missions are run and would have the most direct tie-in to the market).
But let's ignore that, it's not relevant to the point. What is relevant is essentially the same thing said in point 1, that this module is not going to create such an influx of minerals or loot to upset the market. See, even if there are people with reprocessing capabilities so far superior to my own limited scope that half of their income is coming from reprocessing modules, as stated previously the time required to acquire an equivalent amount of loot for either sale or reprocessing is not going to be so radically altered that we see a flood of resources. And no, I see no conceivable way that mining is somehow going to generate a smaller quantity of minerals per hour then reprocessing loot can. Lower value perhaps, but certainly not lower quantity. And that can be changed my mining something better then veldspar.
3) Undermining Noob Income.
Noob salvage is best salvage, I've been there I get it. But I think you are overestimating laziness as a motivator. Your basically saying that making salvaging and looting easier for people running missions is going completely hinder new players convincing people to let them salvage their missions for them because they'd just do it themselves. While this does have merit in some situations where the mission runner is legitimately too lazy to salvage or loot a mission, I personally am of the opinion that if someone is letting you make money off of their effort in a mission that it is not because they are too lazy but rather that they either can A) make more money by not cleaning up or B) are a legitimately nice person letting you make some Iskies. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1576
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
This module recreates the argument about the Marauder tractor bonus vs. the noctis. if I can tractor in all the wrecks with an anchorable structure and loot them with it, why do i need to spend the isk on a noctis. for that matter why would a mission running corp even bother with a noctis any more this would be more efficient.
some details about that need to be found out is how many can you have active at once? do you need to be on-grid to use it? how big are they? Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe WAFFLES.
4221
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:If the new modules are lootable by all... Just saying. Wrecks are can be looted by anyone anyway so I don't see how is that relevant or changed?
The Tractors on your Noctis aren't... "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Anuliadon
Stability Reduced Verge of Carebearing
0
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Posted - 2013.09.27 23:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
don't hate Mr. OP
new mobile structures are gonna be awesome allowing completely new tactics into dated mechanics.
i'm looking forward to seeing what else they bring out. |
Ciaphas Cyne
Turalyon Plus Turalyon Alliance
47
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Posted - 2013.09.28 01:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:don't forget the introduction of the Noctis is a pretty recent thing which also had an effect on the economy at the time, yet nobody minds
this^ |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2013.09.28 01:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm with the "wait and see" camp on this one.
We simply don't have enough information about this thing yet.
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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
377
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Posted - 2013.09.28 03:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Anuliadon wrote:don't hate Mr. OP
new mobile structures are gonna be awesome allowing completely new tactics into dated mechanics.
i'm looking forward to seeing what else they bring out.
this^^^
how can he say 70-80% of wrecks go unlooted? if thats the case, why would anything change now? if folks are too lazy to bring out their noctic for 3 mins, why would this change anything?
on the other hand, if you are a noob and you rely on this for income, you could in theory find multi sites where guys give you the go ahead to loot/salvage and you can warp in, drop this item, and have 8 salvagers on your own noctis. now, the time needed to clear a field is less than 1/2 what it was prior.
and who says you have to deploy it when you start fighting ships to begin with. keep one in the noctis. finish the mission/sanctum, bring the noctis and drop one of these. itll pull everything in and you just salvage. once done, collect loot, pull tractor and roll. i made good money with my alt salvaging sanctums for rigs after smokin em with my main.
think logically, do not put a tractor at the entrance to the site. put it 100km up (or whatever range is dictated by the unit). when someone warps in, you have 100km of travel time to see them and scoop loot.
open your noodles. see. dream. quit being a hater. =) |
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Kanein Encanto
Azure Horizon
2
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Posted - 2013.10.26 19:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think Sofia is way off... this need not be an AFK activity...
Depending on how rats respond to the deployable, it can just speed things along. If they ignore it entirely it could be deployed at the start of a mission, allowing it to tractor and loot the wrecks as you create them (as long as they're in range)... and even if they don't completely ignore it, it can still be deployed as a room is emptied, to do its work while you move onto the next room, or if the area is done, go to grab your noctis fitted with salvager drones and salvager modules, maybe mixed in with a few tractors for the further wrecks.
Arriving back with the noctis (or your choice of salvaging vehicle) most, maybe even all the wrecks have been pulled to the deployable and looted, scoop it, scoop the loot you want from the can it drops, and start salvaging. Once drones are on auto turn your salvagers on the furthest wrecks first (drones always pick the next closest to your ship) and repeat until done.
No afk time, just a little boost to the looting department, frankly I think it'll be nice to not have to open dozens of cargo windows just to loot all the wrecks in a mission, but be able to simply pick them out of a single can... |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
77
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Posted - 2013.10.26 20:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
I've heard from many mission runners that they don't salvage or loot their missions, because LP and bounty/reward give higher income than looting/salvaging can. The only thing these structures can do are: make the life of dedicated mission looters a bit easier. However, there are not that many and they are proficient with the Noctis already. Let alone that they have to anchor the structure, which takes more time than a Noctis run and they have to go through the wrecks anyways to salvage them. if they are scannable, they are of no use in 00 missions to collect tags because you run into higher dangers of losing them compared to a Noctis. plexes and anos also only pose opportunities for very few people, because hauling this kind of stuff around takes too much time and effort to refine stuff for inferior output. Again only useful for a limited number of people. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
443
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 22:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
I do not agree with most of your points.. especially since you cannot tractor loot you don't own. How would you fix this or are you just posting an "I don't wanta" thread? -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
807
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
anchoring and unanchoring the structure is a significant time sink as many missions have more than one pocket. depending on its performance, it may take longer to loot some missions with it.
in most level 4 missions, the loot and salvage together will be worth more than the bounties, and the loot and salvage are not subject to corp tax. its a stretch to say that 50% of the loot value is mineral however. think most of my mineral sales are about 30% of the loot i take to market. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Bischopt
Arbitrary Repossession
311
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
The only thing that's bothering me about the structure in question is the fact that it only works on "legal" wrecks. Why can you not have one of these things rigged so that it steals from others? |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 00:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Playing devil's advocate, these actually have the potential to streamline looting. Since they're relatively small in terms of cargo space, it's quite easy to drop one of these at each gate, bookmark and then come back after to salvage/loot. Of, if you're flying a Noctis - you can use these as extra tractor beams. With respect to mining, salvaging is not exactly AFK or even semi-EFK, so if we're going to drawn a comparison... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
888
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 01:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
They don't anchor/unanchor. You launch them and they have a 45-second activation timer that takes care of itself.
Picking them up again consists of scooping them to the cargo hold. |
JitaLover
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.10.27 02:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Is there an official thread for stats on this yet? If so, i cant seem to find it. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
889
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 07:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
JitaLover wrote:Is there an official thread for stats on this yet? If so, i cant seem to find it.
There is not. Moreover, the ones currently on the Test Server don't even function. The activation timer winds down and then...
...
...nothing. |
JitaLover
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 10:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Do you know how many m-¥3 the unit is by chance? I would imagine it fits in a maxed out Noctis hold....or should at least.
Thought all this information was supposed to be released weeks ago now. |
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