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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1261
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 19:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Under current conditions with webifiers:
Assume:
Base speed of target = 1000 m/s. Using 2 True Sansha webs of base 55%. Perfect skills.
Current conditions: 82.5% reduction in base speed on a webifier. 1st web reduces target to 175 m/s. 2nd web reduces speed to 30.6 m/s
Under the new conditions: 75.625%reduction in base speed. 1st web reduces target speed to 243.8 m/s 2nd web reduces target speed to 59.4 m/s
I am ignoring any stacking nerfs, which should have the same relative effect post nerf anyway
Effects after nerf:
1st web: 40% higher target angular velocity when tracking (244.3 / 175) . 2nd web: 94% higher target angular velocity when tracking (59.4 / 30.6).
I knew you guys at CCP hated any kind of high sec PvE and want to crush high sec into the ground, but wow. Couple that with the massive loss in drone damage, and you can kiss the Kronos and Paladin goodbye as Incursion running boats. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 19:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lock Pls.
Post in Marauder thread.
K thx bye The Law is a point of View |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1261
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 19:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lock Pls.
Post in Marauder thread.
K thx bye
Yeah, so it can get buried in all the noise and ignored. At least here people can see what CCP is really doing. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc WHYS0 Expendable
998
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
I heard loki is good for webbing stuff :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2121
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Marauder changes were intended to encourage them to fight at range. Range WELL outside that of webs. You shouldn't need webs if you can hit out to 40km with Void.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:The Marauder changes were intended to encourage them to fight at range. Range WELL outside that of webs. You shouldn't need webs if you can hit out to 40km with Void.
And on that note, doesn't that kind of make the stasis web bonus redundant? At least for the Golem, because for the negligible damage difference who's going to run torpedoes over cruise missiles? And what on Earth would possibly compel a Golem player to train past Marauder-I? For the level of skill-training involved, quite frankly the vast majority of the proposed Marauder bonuses, well... suck. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1262
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:The Marauder changes were intended to encourage them to fight at range. Range WELL outside that of webs. You shouldn't need webs if you can hit out to 40km with Void.
Yes, I am sure people fit Void on their Paladin's. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Why would you even fight at close range with the new Marauders? They're only "good" when bastion mode is on, and that makes them stationary. Anyone with half a brain is going to be trying to kite them forever, wait for them to engage bastion mode and then tear the Marauder apart.
Let's not forget that a Cruise golem only loses what... 100-150 DPS over a Torp golem, and even then probably has better damage application and far, FAR superior range? Which renders the point of even bothering with fitting a web on a Golem completely moot when you have even better target painters fitted. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Why would you even fight at close range with the new Marauders? ^^ I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
samualvimes
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm sorry I can't get behind this.
PvE activities should only be included in the balancing thoughts if they are industrial ships.
These are combat ships and they should be designed around PvP. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:I'm sorry I can't get behind this.
PvE activities should only be included in the balancing thoughts if they are industrial ships.
These are combat ships and they should be designed around PvP. ^^ Exactly this. The irony of this is that ships designed around PvP usually make the best PvE ships. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
This thread should be renamed into "Why the upcoming post shows that OP feels more special than most people who understand to keep marauder stuff in the marauders thread".
On a more related note, I'm not sure if there is anything current marauders can do better than pirate BSs in incursions. Considering that they don't even offer SP tradeoffs (as their SP requirements are ridiculously higher than ones of pirate ships), I don't see any reason to consider their incursion running effectiveness as I mostly see Incursion running community as "fly the best thing or GTFO" people especially if there's competition at hand. I may be wrong ofc, so if someone can enlighten me on the matter of using marauders in incursions and answer banal questions like "why Kronos over Vindicator" ot "why Paladin over NM, considering relative rarity of armor fleets", I'll happily educate myself.
So I see this as CCP's attempt to make these ships better than others for some uses, we'll see if they will succeed. It's kinda the thing about EVE, unless the ship is the best at at least something, it will be considered junk. Except when it comes integrating people who are in the process of training relevant stuff (and so unable to fly something that is wanted) into different activities ofc...
ShahFluffers wrote:samualvimes wrote:I'm sorry I can't get behind this.
PvE activities should only be included in the balancing thoughts if they are industrial ships.
These are combat ships and they should be designed around PvP. ^^ Exactly this. The irony of this is that ships designed around PvP usually make the best PvE ships. There are many reasons for this, including that CCP weren't really trying to make a lot of purely PvE-specific bonuses (wtf are those even?) even on "PvE" ships. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1678
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
It is pretty horrible. The fact that they've left them a web bonus at all means they won't get something more useful in its place. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
566
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I am ignoring any stacking nerfs, which should have the same relative effect post nerf anyway
False, imagine this scenario (taken to extremes a bit) First web (pre nerf): 99% speed reduction - Target velocity is 1% max speed First web (post nerf): 98% speed reduction - Target velocity is 2% max speed, ie, its moving 2x as fast as pre nerf
Then we get to the 2nd, stacking penalized web: 99% * 0.87 (stacking penalty) = 86.13% speed reduction - Target velocity is 13.87% previous velocity Nerfed: 98% * 0.87 = 85.26% speed reduction - target velocity is 14.74% previous velocity, only 6% higher than before.
The change affects the first web the most.
Two true sansha webs, level V skill pre-change (1-0.55*1.5) * (1-.55*.87*1.5) = .175 * 0.282 = 0.0494
Post change: (1-0.55*1.375) (1-.55*1.375*.87)= .244 * .342 = 0.0834
The first web has a relative effect of .244/.175 = 1.394.... so yes, nearly 40% faster as you calculated. The 2nd has a relative effect of .342/.282 = 1.21 -> the old 2nd web was only about 20% more effective. The total effect, is roughly a multiplication of 1.4*1.2, more precisely, 1.688.. The new double webbed target will be going 68% faster, not twice as fast as you concluded when ignoring the stacking penalty.
Note that you will get the EXACT same webbing strength with fed navy webs post patch, as you got with true sansha webs before the patch. 60*1.375 = 55*1.5 In essence, if you were using TS webs, you can switch to fed navy web,s and consider it a 1km web nerf. (but since your tracking is better, you shouldn't mind them getting 1km closer |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Is this your second or third thread on how this is ruining the game? |
Alim Omaristos
Dont Pod Me Bro
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 01:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't always use a web, but when I do I make sure my hull is bonused, and designed to fight at 100km out. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
774
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 01:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
If there's a problem here, it's that there's a bonus to short-range EWAR on long-range boats. Bonusing painters would make so much more sense, with the possible exception of the Kronos (because blasters). Even then... Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Verar Valdis
Riders of the Maelstrom Interstellar ConVicts
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Just going to put my 2 cents in but OP will probably scream at this but pvpers will be happy is it makes more sense for the marauders to get a bonus to web range not web strength then kiting with the MJD and sieging will be more viable in small gang fights and to preventing them from becoming huggins with big tanks they only get the web range bonus while in bastion mode. |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
379
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
:( its so sad to see people compare about marauders when some of them have not even owned one, and all they care about is about super PVE ships, I m personally all in for removing all the stupid bastion crap, and make them oversized HACs with role bonus for MWD cap use. making them the fastest battleships so they can actually be marauders. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote::( its so sad to see people compare about marauders when some of them have not even owned one, and all they care about is about super PVE ships, I m personally all in for removing all the stupid bastion crap, and make them oversized HACs with role bonus for MWD cap use. making them the fastest battleships so they can actually be marauders.
I just want something unique that justifies the 6+ months additional skill training. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2908
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 04:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
I fly with TVP, warp to me, ISN and occassionaly DIN. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a Marauder in an Incursion fleet. Pirate ships rule High Sec incursions, not Marauders.
Also, as much as I love incursions, the "incursion community" is a small (very small) part of the General EVE commuity (hell, it's a very small part of the EVE PVE community too). The idea of balancing ships around an activty that isn't even all that popular in the grand scheme of things is dumb.
What CCP wants to do with marauders is innovative, they should ignore the reactionaries with narrow interests like Dinsdale and continue to add cool things like Bastion mode marauders for the Glory and Advancement of null sec...oh damn, did I let CCPs true motivation slip again? Crap, that means I'll get kicked out of the Nulluminati for being a blabber mouth again. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 04:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I fly with TVP, warp to me, ISN and occassionaly DIN. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a Marauder in an Incursion fleet. Pirate ships rule High Sec incursions, not Marauders.
Also, as much as I love incursions, the "incursion community" is a small (very small) part of the General EVE commuity (hell, it's a very small part of the EVE PVE community too). The idea of balancing ships around an activty that isn't even all that popular in the grand scheme of things is dumb.
What CCP wants to do with marauders is innovative, they should ignore the reactionaries with narrow interests like Dinsdale and continue to add cool things like Bastion mode marauders for the Glory and Advancement of null sec...oh damn, did I let CCPs true motivation slip again? Crap, that means I'll get kicked out of the Nulluminati for being a blabber mouth again.
You are correct in one part of your statement:
No one in shields flies Marauders, and for good reason. Missiles are useless in contests, and the Vargur is far outclassed by the Nightmare, Mach, and Vindi.
BTW, I am not surprised you fly with shields. Their attitude fits perfectly with anything you have displayed in the forums.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2908
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 05:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I fly with TVP, warp to me, ISN and occassionaly DIN. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a Marauder in an Incursion fleet. Pirate ships rule High Sec incursions, not Marauders.
Also, as much as I love incursions, the "incursion community" is a small (very small) part of the General EVE commuity (hell, it's a very small part of the EVE PVE community too). The idea of balancing ships around an activty that isn't even all that popular in the grand scheme of things is dumb.
What CCP wants to do with marauders is innovative, they should ignore the reactionaries with narrow interests like Dinsdale and continue to add cool things like Bastion mode marauders for the Glory and Advancement of null sec...oh damn, did I let CCPs true motivation slip again? Crap, that means I'll get kicked out of the Nulluminati for being a blabber mouth again. You are correct in one part of your statement: No one in shields flies Marauders, and for good reason. Missiles are useless in contests, and the Vargur is far outclassed by the Nightmare, Mach, and Vindi. BTW, I am not surprised you fly with shields. Their attitude fits perfectly with anything you have displayed in the forums.
It's not surprising that you're one of those Armor only wackjobs that refuse to train into shield ships despite shieled being obvioulsy superior (last time i look, damage mods went in low slots) and the train reqs being, well, nothing ("omg no, what do you mean 2 or 3 days of training to use an Invul!!").
You never get it, it's you who have the problem, not the game, not the shield communities, not null sec or CCP or some vast conspiracy to personally screw you over. YOU. But hey, if you want to continue to be the butt of so many jokes AND totally ignored by CCP , go ahead, but answer me this one question 1st:
Do you really think insulting the game makers at every turn, accusing them of being "in cohoots" with everyone you dislike and basically slinging tinfoil is effective? |
Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 06:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Even armor players should have shield skills trained for the simple fact that their opponent problably has it. ASB + Invul = 2 best uses for 2 mid slots on an armor buffer ship vs something else of similar size. |
Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 08:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Evangelina Nolen wrote:Even armor players should have shield skills trained for the simple fact that their opponent problably has it. ASB + Invul = 2 best uses for 2 mid slots on an armor buffer ship vs something else of similar size.
You live in a world where no one warps out, no onw speed tanks, no one neuts and no one uses EW on you. Please send me VISA or even residence permit directly. Kthnxbuye.
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Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm tired of CCP not listening to the 200 page discussion in Marauder change thread. I mean, 200+ pages of people saying it's ok or that is is awful. Why do they make Marauders even slower (less speed and lower agility)? Why remove the local tank bonuses when not in bastion? Giving range when sitting still, meaning that you get no transversal or anything on NPC's? Smaller Drone bay?
People are used to play Marauders as they are. Why not just give bastion mode and say: "here is a new way you can use the Marauders". Instead me get: "you want to tank effectively? SIT HERE AND DON'T MOVE. You want to kill stuff: here you go WEB bonus and range bonus. WTF? Why do you give range AND web bonus?" |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
240
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Why do you give range AND web bonus?"
snipe the big stuff....web frigates for easier killing for your drones (And high slot assists if so motivated).
Bastion at range will have you outside of optimal of the bs's. I know in my pve rokh after a mjd hop I get lots of time before the BS' reclose to have any attempt at damage. rats don't run with uber te/tc fits with lr t2 ammo or faction lr ammo (say CN uranium). You can sit still with a minimal tank and not worry about if so inclined to. Bastion is giving tank over whatever you run for this...not a bad deal imo. Also the cut off of e-war shows promise. Its at least a final trick to pull anyway.
Speed was cut because of the mjd bonus you are moving much faster overall in terms of distance versus time to move it.. If you somehow fit to run a mwd fulltime to equal the same 3 mjd cycles to move 300 km's the mjd will be faster still.
And ccp is giving us what we asked for....something new and different to play besides saving up for pirates BS. We weren't getting mach and vindi the sequel. CCP knows they messed up with these ships. They weren't going to carbon copy them. Nor were they going to power creep t2 to be better than pirate. Power to creep to outdo op ships....2 wrongs don't make a right.
Carebears will have to adapt. Welcome to eve. PVP'ers change up flying and tactics all the time as patch changes occur (I am sure we can find a few who would happily say roll back the server to nano days) or new tactics and fits become the fotm. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
514
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:The Marauder changes were intended to encourage them to fight at range. Range WELL outside that of webs. You shouldn't need webs if you can hit out to 40km with Void.
Yet they all get a web bonus... This makes so much sense. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
566
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I fly with TVP, warp to me, ISN and occassionaly DIN. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a Marauder in an Incursion fleet. Pirate ships rule High Sec incursions, not Marauders.
Also, as much as I love incursions, the "incursion community" is a small (very small) part of the General EVE commuity (hell, it's a very small part of the EVE PVE community too). The idea of balancing ships around an activty that isn't even all that popular in the grand scheme of things is dumb.
What CCP wants to do with marauders is innovative, they should ignore the reactionaries with narrow interests like Dinsdale and continue to add cool things like Bastion mode marauders for the Glory and Advancement of null sec...oh damn, did I let CCPs true motivation slip again? Crap, that means I'll get kicked out of the Nulluminati for being a blabber mouth again. You are correct in one part of your statement: No one in shields flies Marauders, and for good reason. Missiles are useless in contests, and the Vargur is far outclassed by the Nightmare, Mach, and Vindi. BTW, I am not surprised you fly with shields. Their attitude fits perfectly with anything you have displayed in the forums.
I see Vargurs sometimes, but thats it, no other marauders in shield fleets.
I hear armor fleets use Paladins. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
384
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
what i am tired of are people only seeing one small portion of a change and then blowing it out of proportion.
i hope they get rid of web bonuses. thats a waste of a good sniper bonus.
in bastion mode: its clear these are going to be highly mobile, t2 resisted snipe boats.
BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO RUN BASTION!!!
what do we have outside of bastion? we have t2 resists on a bs (things people in this forum have been saying CCP will NEVER do because its OP. we have tons of hp. take a paladin...throw 1 kinetic rig and you have 2 sides at 80% or more. 2 more em rigs and now the em side is about 80% or more. 2 energized thermic and you have 4 at 80% or more.
lets see...we have 6 other slots. hmm.. all my resists are around 80%, what now? maybe LAR II or course. 1600 II 1600 II and 3 heat sinks?
mids would be 2 tracking computers, mjd and whatever else u wanted.
4 mega pulse II, 1 bastion, 3 rr armor reps.
of course you cant be healed in bastion BUT WHO SAYS YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS BEAST? you can get a 90k mega pulse out of bastion with this setup and scorch. bastion gives 120km, double reps etc etc...
but you only have to sit in bastion 1 minute. then jump. keep them at range and STILL apply all short range dps to them. lets see, at 100k, very few peeps will be hitting you for dps, but you hit them as if they were sitting next too you. why would you sit and duke it out at point blank range?
the base ship without the bastion mode is going to be a beast. better than almost any other bs in game. not quite as dps-ing as a pirate, but tank will far surpass it. the mobility will far surpass it.
buying a marauder-850 mil t2 fitting said marauder-200 mil watching your enemies explode while you pop the hood and show off your neon? priceless..
for everything else there's 1-800-EatShytAndDie |
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