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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope Gallente Federation
1986
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 01:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/09/the-csm-is-useless-not-what-you-think.html
I'm not disrespecting the personalities involved. The eighth CSM (CSM8) has been the most productive and vocal CSM since the inception of the stellar management program. Ripard Teg and Mynnna are definitely the two strongest voices on the council. I've no problems with any of the work that they are doing. I'm even warming to Trebor Daehdoow. And then you have another eight or so folks who are all hard-working and invested in their roles as player representatives.
I'm not disrespecting their intentions. I think they accepted their jobs, and have proceeded to do their jobs, with the very best intentions. The welfare of the game is at the heart of everything they do.
As an organization that is supposed to represent the concerns of the players, I feel the CSM falls entirely flat. Not because our representatives aren't trying their damnedest to represent us, but rather how CCP uses the CSM to further their own designs and agendas.
Most CSM members come into their positions feeling quite strongly about where the game could be improved. Those are generally pre-existing areas of the game with mechanics that could be made better. Nullsec sovereignty mechanics, for instance. Or the POS subsystem. Or corporate role mechanics. The CSM come into their jobs, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, sure that CCP will listen to their concerns, because their concerns are the concerns of the playerbase. And CCP exists only at the whim of the playerbase.
And CCP does listen. Sitting there silently, attentively, nodding at everything the new recruits of the CSM have to say. "Yep. Yep. Sure. Yep."
Then CCP goes away for a time. And then they come back with what they intend to work on for the next expansion. And most of this stuff are new features, which don't have much to do with what the CSM was concerned about. Radial menus. Exploration mini-games. Redesigns of character selection screens. There might be a couple of little things mixed in there, that sort of address a few pixels of the high-def image of concerns that the CSM had.
(Take Yurts. I'd like to think this is the first step towards a modular POS system. I really would like to believe that. I'd like to believe that CCP paid attention to a major, long-standing CSM concern. But there's a good chance that Yurts are anything but that. That all Yurts are is exactly what they're called "personal mobile structures." That there is no grander scheme beyond that. That POSes will continue to be broken for many years to come, and any feature you'd like to see from a POS will have to be served only at the personal level via Yurts.)
What the CSM becomes at this point is a rubber-stamp on these new features. The CSM gets to weigh in with some opinions and concerns, of which CCP does listen, does take some of that feedback into account. Then the CSM comes back to the masses, tells us all how instrumental in the process they've been. Unfortunately, little of what has been rubber-stamped has anything to do with the concerns the CSM brought to CCP initially.
In return for the privilege of this look behind the scenes, the ability to give feedback on features that nobody really asked for, the CSM is supposed to tell us all, before announcements are made, that they're reviewing exciting new features they wish they could tell us about. And if you look at most of the tweets and blog and forum posts from CSM members pre-Rubicon announcement, you'll see a lot of that. A lot of stuff they're excited about and that we're going to love.
The CSM keeps us invested in-between expansions. And if we're not particularly excited about a particular expansion, well the CSM is there to start telling us how incredible the features in the next expansion will be. And so on and so forth.
The problem is that CCP uses the CSM as not much more than a public relations and marketing tool. I think the CSM plays into this unknowingly, most of the time.
In terms of marketing, look to the Summer Summit. There was an entire session devoted to the EVE Online Collector's Edition. It was ostensibly called Session Sixteen: Sales and Marketing, but as Ripard Teg described the session, "Unsurprisingly, a lot of the focus of this session was [on the] EVE Collector's Edition." He then went on to describe the collector's edition as "undeniably awesome" and "in-cred-ible." Ripard even describes the session as a product pitch. The CSM fulfills its purposes, selling EVE to the players they represent. The collector's edition may indeed be awesome, but is that the CSM's role, to upsell CCP products? (I bought my copy of the collector's edition the day it was announced, as my disclosure on the item.)
The current role of the CSM, whether they realize it or not, is to sell the playerbase on this three-year (or five-year) roadmap. They're supposed to keep us invested in what is to come, even though few people have the foggiest idea what is to come. I'd be surprised if the CSM has been given concrete plans, and not simply something slightly less vague than what the players have been fed via Fanfest and Rubicon streams. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope Gallente Federation
1986
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 01:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
In terms of public relations, take the Somer Blink scandal. The CSM was not consulted on CCP's plans of giving Somer Blink unique prizes to offer through its for-profit service. Bypassing the CSM was not a mistake. If it were a mistake, then folks like CCP Navigator, CCP Manifest and CCP Pokethulu would be monumentally stupid people. I think those guys are anything but stupid, rather exceptionally bright. They knew exactly how the CSM would react to their partnership with Somer Blink. To have approached the CSM first would have denied them the ability to claim ignorance afterwards. Somer Blink is not an insignificant revenue stream for CCP Games, they encourage increased sales of game time codes. By giving unique items to Somer, it brings more eyes to that service, which in turn will drive more sales of GTCs. (As disclosure, in the past I've bought all my game time codes via Somer Blink, their blink credits for time codes scheme works.)
The best way to approach the Somer Blink issue was to avoid the CSM. CCP knew there would be a player outcry afterwards. Again, we're not talking clueless stupid people here. The Pokethulus, the Manifests, the Navigators, they are all quite bright. How you turn Somer Blink into a double-win is you let the player outrage grow to a certain point, you let the CSM do their thing as representatives, you let them write their open letter to CCP. And then you respond. With the right amount of shame and apologetic behaviour for the grave mistake, yada yada yada. The player reaction is then predictable, "OMG! CCP are listening to our concerns! Best company ever!"
CCP is a pretty good company. Made better because the playerbase has become their fiddle. Incarna has taught them a few valuable lessons in manipulation. The CSM helps greatly and unknowingly in that.
The CSM is supposed to serve the players. But in reality the CSM very much serves CCP, whether the CSM realizes it or not. And that's why the CSM is useless. Not because of the good intentions and objectives of the representatives, rather because CCP has manipulated them into public relations and marketing tools. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Marwen DeGaulle
Star Frontiers Dirt Nap Squad.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 02:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
in on epic thread |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1248
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 02:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
"The CSM doesn't operate effectively in this imaginary way I thought it did or think it should, so it is broken." The problem lies with you and your unfounded misconception.
The real issue is CCP teams not even using the CSM as it is meant to be used, which brings you things like the ToS and Blink disasters. CCP not using the CSM as it was never intended to be used or suggested that it would ever be used is your problem alone. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Why the heck do you care about any of this? Weren't you quitting anyway? You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
643
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
I tried to follow it, honestly I did
So because we are improperly used and not utilized to the best effect we have run our course?
A company of admittedly clever people try their best to put a good business face on?
We are growing, every year the CSM works its way deeper into the system and gains a bit more of a foothold. Each year we have our failures and successes and some of those NEVER see the light of day because if we do our job well, some bad ideas DON'T make it past us.
Others do. Or we see the good and someone else sees the bad. I have one post say that Yurts are great and another proclaim then to be a complete loss and waste of time. Same goes for damn near every item announced for Rubicon so far.
I don't know and cannot control how the outside perception of what we do is. So you can take my word for it . . . or not.
1) at no point are we asked to 'sell the players on something' 2) this is work, make no mistake about that 3) we have not yet run our course
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3318
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Didn't you quit?
Also, your word count is making Jade Constantine blush. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Baaldor
In Igne Morim
91
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: The CSM is supposed to serve the players. But in reality the CSM very much serves CCP, whether the CSM realizes it or not. And that's why the CSM is useless. Not because of the good intentions and objectives of the representatives, rather because CCP has manipulated them into public relations and marketing tools.
Well, we can always go back to the way it was where there were absolutely nothing from CCP and if you don't like it, you can go ride a high hard one.
And we can go back to dropping T20 / Pedobear Threadnoughts showing our displeasure. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11917
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well you heard the man. We can't make everything perfect every time, therefore nothing we do has any point.
Seriously, there's only one question that he needs to ask, but sadly it's not really dramatic enough for Poe's standards:
Is EVE better with the CSM or without it.
1 Kings 12:11
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Bagehi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
I was under the impression the CSM is a sounding board for portions of CCP. I'm under the impression many CSM have the goal of "don't let bad things happen to Eve" more than trying to push CCP to do new things they want. That's just my impression. |
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FightingMoose
Norse'Storm Battle Group
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 20:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Is EVE better with the CSM or without it.
Ultimately these are my feelings on the matter. I agree that CCP occasionally treats the CSM poorly and doesn't utilize it in ways that could really help them (Blink and TOS screwups come to mind). But I also feel that EVE is a far more solid game because of the CSM than it would be without it.
Proud owner of an Ibis. |
None ofthe Above
689
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 20:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Drama Llama's gotta drama. The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11934
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:I was under the impression the CSM is a sounding board for portions of CCP. I'm under the impression many CSM have the goal of "don't let bad things happen to Eve" more than trying to push CCP to do new things they want. That's just my impression.
A little from column A, a little from column B
There are other benefits to being on the CSM.
For instance - and here I pick an example that actually happened - let's say $NEW_FEATURE is being discussed. It has been a somewhat contentious issue in the past, and CCP aren't even sure if they should mention it. I as a CSM get to point out a possible benefit from a trivial addition to the feature for a minority demographic for whom the feature is an absolute game-maker, and phrase it such that CCP can (if they wish) include this perspective as a positive reason to do the feature. CCP get to introduce the feature, I get the happy feeling of helping a much disregarded minority, the minority in question get to feel a jillion times better about the game.
Also, being in frequent contact with CCP devs, you do get to, over time, present a perspective on issues that has influence. It's hard to quantify with hard metrics but it's there.
1 Kings 12:11
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Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
521
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Looks like Poetic Stanziel has sold his toon to Dinsdale Piranha CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11943
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 11:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Looks like Poetic Stanziel has sold his toon to Dinsdale Piranha
RMT?
1 Kings 12:11
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Rentlord Mynnna
Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere Exec Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 13:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
No he was making a joke, see, because the OP has a similar sort of hysterical tinge as is often found in Dinsdale's posts. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
2032
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 13:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well you heard the man. We can't make everything perfect every time, therefore nothing we do has any point.
Seriously, there's only one question that he needs to ask, but sadly it's not really dramatic enough for Poe's standards:
Is EVE better with the CSM or without it.
That question sounds like, "Are you better one-eyed or totally blind?"
If the Hallelujah Plan is a proof of what the CSM can achieve in terms of CCP "getting it", then the CSM could easily be scrapped and neither us nor CCP would notice. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11944
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 13:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
No, he was making a joke, see? because Dinsdale is obsessed with "nullsec cartel RMT lords".
1 Kings 12:11
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None ofthe Above
741
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 14:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rentlord Mynnna wrote:No he was making a joke, see, because the OP has a similar sort of hysterical tinge as is often found in Dinsdale's posts.
Rentlord? That's interesting.
Do you have the CSM flag on two characters? Or did you just transfer the flag? The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1898
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Rentlord Mynnna wrote:No he was making a joke, see, because the OP has a similar sort of hysterical tinge as is often found in Dinsdale's posts. Rentlord? That's interesting. Do you have the CSM flag on two characters? Or did you just transfer the flag?
All characters on the account have the flag. Sometimes I forget to swap back after dealing with renter business. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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FightingMoose
Norse'Storm Battle Group
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:That question sounds like, "Are you better one-eyed or totally blind?"
No, not really. It's more like would you like to have eyes which somewhat work and will be improved with surgery, or to not have eyes.
The CSM isn't perfect, and CCP's interaction with it is much less so. But it has improved significantly since its inception, and CSMs over the years have gotten more boisterous and demanding of positive change. Ending the CSM makes absolutely no sense. Giving it more powers, electing more active members, and demanding more accountability from CCP does, but ending the CSM is not a prerequisite to make the CSM more powerful. Proud owner of an Ibis. |
Rengerel en Distel
1972
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 18:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
mynnna wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:Rentlord Mynnna wrote:No he was making a joke, see, because the OP has a similar sort of hysterical tinge as is often found in Dinsdale's posts. Rentlord? That's interesting. Do you have the CSM flag on two characters? Or did you just transfer the flag? All characters on the account have the flag. Sometimes I forget to swap back after dealing with renter business.
Rentlord looks scary, not someone you wanna be late with the rent with.
I didn't check the blog post, but did it have the little "humor" tag at the bottom? It's what he uses so he can just post a load of crap then point to it and say "no, guys, i was kidding, i wasn't just being dumb" ...
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
2034
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
FightingMoose wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:That question sounds like, "Are you better one-eyed or totally blind?" No, not really. It's more like would you like to have eyes which somewhat work and will be improved with surgery, or to not have eyes. The CSM isn't perfect, and CCP's interaction with it is much less so. But it has improved significantly since its inception, and CSMs over the years have gotten more boisterous and demanding of positive change. Ending the CSM makes absolutely no sense. Giving it more powers, electing more active members, and demanding more accountability from CCP does, but ending the CSM is not a prerequisite to make the CSM more powerful.
A CSM that exists but serves me nothing, is indistinguishable from a CSM that does not exist. "Ask the CSM and all your problems will be the bloody same" makes a really poor selling line...
But, usefulness aside, my main gripe with the CSM is of representativeness. In any self proclaimed democracy, being elected by less than 14% of the potential electorate would be considered a joke. And I wonder why CCP btohers to get such a skewed sample of popular capsuleeers when they're supposed to look for stakeholders and unpaid testers/counselors. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
659
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:A CSM that exists but serves me nothing, is indistinguishable from a CSM that does not exist.
To you.
But if the named and numbered 14% feel that they do get representation, that we actually are of some value, we are justified in our existence.
Your argument carries the same weight as 'I don' fly in null, therefore it should be removed from the game'. Just because it does nothing for you directly (and I would argue that) does not mean . . .
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
2035
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 20:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Quote:A CSM that exists but serves me nothing, is indistinguishable from a CSM that does not exist. To you. But if the named and numbered 14% feel that they do get representation, that we actually are of some value, we are justified in our existence. Your argument carries the same weight as 'I don' fly in null, therefore it should be removed from the game'. Just because it does nothing for you directly (and I would argue that) does not mean . . . m
Just to set the appropiate background...
- I've voted in the last 3 CSM elections - in the last one, I actually voted for you - If possible, I will vote in the next election
Yet I still haven't got a single ounce of benefit from voting. Hasn't spared losing stuff i liked and hasn't improved the game for me, it never made a difference to have this or that guy i voted at the CSM, which I don't blame on them, anyway. But I seriously doubt that i represent a mere 1/14th of the population and so deserve that there is only one candidate who supposedly speaks for me and achieves nothing after dealing with the other 13 CSM and CCP.
In terms of getting a better EVE for me, voting the CSM is in the same order of performance as lighting devotional candles to saints... but that doesn't means that i want to get rid of it. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
None ofthe Above
802
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
mynnna wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:Rentlord Mynnna wrote:No he was making a joke, see, because the OP has a similar sort of hysterical tinge as is often found in Dinsdale's posts. Rentlord? That's interesting. Do you have the CSM flag on two characters? Or did you just transfer the flag? All characters on the account have the flag. Sometimes I forget to swap back after dealing with renter business.
Ah, I see. Thanks. The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11947
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 08:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Malcanis wrote:Well you heard the man. We can't make everything perfect every time, therefore nothing we do has any point.
Seriously, there's only one question that he needs to ask, but sadly it's not really dramatic enough for Poe's standards:
Is EVE better with the CSM or without it. That question sounds like, "Are you better one-eyed or totally blind?" If the Hallelujah Plan is a proof of what the CSM can achieve in terms of CCP "getting it", then the CSM could easily be scrapped and neither us nor CCP would notice.
It's hugely better to be one eyed than blind.
The CSM have a damb difficult job to do, and on the whole, they do it pretty well; but the cards we are dealt are the ones we can play. Every CSM has - to extend the metaphor - arranged for the succeeding CSM to be dealt a few more, slightly better cards, and every year, the new CSM plays for higher stakes than the last. CSM8 has no intention of being the first CSM to break that trend. Indeed, I feel fairly confident that we will if anything accelerate it.
Nevertheless, the CSM operate within limits that you are either too stubborn to admit you are aware of, or simply too immature to admit they exist. Whichever it is, your sullen petulance that CCP has decided not to prioritise one aspect of the game that you personally are interested in is by no means a basis for objectively evaluating the CSM. You're a spoiled child whining that Santa didn't bring her a pony so therefore you hate christmas and no one else should get a present.
Get over yourself and grow up, and stop insulting people who are working hard to get the best result for you that they can.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11947
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 08:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
And for God's sake, play the game as it is, not as you hope it may one day be. You will be happier that way.
And quieter.
So we'll be happier too.
1 Kings 12:11
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Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2013.10.04 11:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
But, usefulness aside, my main gripe with the CSM is of representativeness. In any self proclaimed democracy, being elected by less than 14% of the potential electorate would be considered a joke. And I wonder why CCP btohers to get such a skewed sample of popular capsuleeers when they're supposed to look for stakeholders and unpaid testers/counselors.
I wouldn't worry too much about that, CCP would be aware of that and in addition to that they would be aware that the opinions expressed are likely to be from the extremes rather than being balanced. It is important to consider what credibility a source actually has rather than considering the credibility the source purports to have - professionals have to deal with those issues regularly. All things concerning the game and surrounding community should always be up for debate, you raise some good points about the CSM and identify some issues. I think some members of the CSM then validate the idea of their ineffectiveness in the overly defensive and unconstructive way that they have responded, these people have to be capable of being constructive and considered even about their own roles if they are going to be useful and must be capable of interacting with players in a reasonable way (even if the opposite is not always true).
Representation is always a difficult thing, the Athenian style lottery is probably the best way of managing political ambition but as with the real world being seen to be democratic is often more important than actually being so. Eve does strike me as a situation where selection by CCP would be a better idea than election by the community at least for the focus group job. The whiff of placebo is always apparent within this system and that is understandable.
It is never a bad idea to try and consider things from the other side of the fence. Given the sort of ambition expressed by the CSM you have to wonder what sort of impact that actually has on the freedom of the developers to be creative and inventive if a situation exists where 'how much will they moan' is put above 'is this good for the game'. We already see that a lot of creativity and energy is actually being directed into other projects like Valkyrie whilst Eve is only really being tinkered with - although it is a bit of stretch to blame the CSM for that. Political input into software development has a history of being incredibly expensive and producing non existent or barely functional systems that are almost immediately scrapped. The CSM seem to have an aim of achieving a greater role in the development of the game but seem to give little consideration as to whether that would be a good thing. That is not to say that the CSM is evil or that its members are idiots but there does seem a distinct lack of interest in evaluating what their role is and what risks they introduce and how they can be managed, good intentions can be complex to translate into a good effect. There is scope to suggest that the CSM working to both represent the community and being the focus group is not entirely satisfactory. Perhaps there could be alternatives to the current situation where the CSM may perhaps have an answer but cant tell anyone, it does represent a conflict of interest which inevitably dents the confidence the community can have as clearly they are also working for CCP. The benefits of having a clearly transparent system are worth consideration.
For POS's, which seems to be part of the original complaint, you shouldn't be looking for any attempt to fix the existing system. Reading half the identified issues should make you realise that it should be completely scrapped as fixing it would take far too much time. Unfortunately that would mean starting from scratch which also takes time and I think it would be reasonable to see something developed and introduced gradually over time whilst the old system is still used in the meantime. Similar with Corp mechanics etc.. but it is also reasonable for CCP to not make public any longer term development goals as that risks false expectations.
Mike Azariah wrote: But if the named and numbered 14% feel that they do get representation, that we actually are of some value, we are justified in our existence.
Accepting something unacceptable is unacceptable always looks better than promoting it as an achievement. Why is your response in no way acknowledging that awareness and community participation needs to be increased since it is absolutely fundamental to the function of the CSM.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11951
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 12:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Good lord, that's a lot of words to express a couple of very simple concepts. Were you being paid by the line to write that?
But then, speaking plainly and blunty is "unconstructive" in your lexicon, isn't it?
1 Kings 12:11
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