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Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.09.30 20:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.
2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.
You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. |
Liam Inkuras
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
1) Maybe
2) No
Your suggestions won't fix BLOPS, only make them so good that they'll become overpowered. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:1) Maybe
2) No
Your suggestions won't fix BLOPS, only make them so good that they'll become overpowered.
Overpowered?
- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag - cant fit them for guerilla tactics either, other ship classes are much better and cheaper at that. People will be like, lmfaonub wtf was he trying to do? At your killmail. - you cant solo with a BO. Adding an alt still won't do, you need at least 2, good luck multiboxing with 3 toons worth over 1.5 billion smackaroos. - carebears may go mental over this but ultimately its not the bridging ship that kills them but the omgwtf popping out of the hole, and when that sort of gank hits the shiny paladin with t1 fit it don't matter if the blop ship had a covop cloak or not.
Fuel bay limits their usefullness in a small fleet where nobody can/wants to be the fuel mule. Ok maybe cyno cloaky hauler will do but most folks dont train that box of cabbage anyway, besides who goes out on a recon job with an indy anyway.
Lack of covops cloak makes blops pilots unable to travel freely. Its supposed to be the instrumental component of a stealth, agile fleet yet it fails to keep up bcos it cant warp under cloak. Makes me think of my grandpa's 60 yo volkswagen thats worth a fortune nowadays yet cant move cos it has no wheels
Just my 2c, sorry if i missed anything.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
83
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Posted - 2013.09.30 22:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Battle Crane? MWD, three slots of ewar, cloaky, and 9406m3 of fuel and bombs? |
Quontor Zarrkos
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
20
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Posted - 2013.09.30 22:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yes they suck at dps and tank and everything, but they have a jump drive. They're not supposed to be better than T1 battleships because they never engage in real pvp, they only drop on fights they can win for sure and jump out afterwards. That's what makes them special. Though for that same reason I agree with you on them needing a real fuel bay. Having to bridge around a covert hauler with you is ridiculous, just give them 10km-¦ fuel bay already. Also, you don't have to be able to solo with every ship, eve is still an online game, if you want to do blops drops, then maybe start or join a group that likes to do the same thing? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
527
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Battle Crane? MWD, three slots of ewar, cloaky, and 9406m3 of fuel and bombs?
Yeah, or three.
Takes a LOT of gas to move 15 bombers, 5 recons and a couple battleships, and blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.
.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
216
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Umm no... They're already flying around nullsec immune to gate camps and cyno jammers. Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers... |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag
Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it? |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
103
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Having done and seen the power of a coordinated black ops campaign through the fountain/ delve grinds, I think people can safely say that the power of having a couple blops around is self evident.
There is valid room for discussion over the size of the fuel bay/jump range. Perhaps some specialized mid or low Slot mods could address those factors? (Like those for the scanning game)
But boosting the gank power has been suggested (read begged for) over and over. There just isn't any reason for it. Decrying the cost for the ship as a reason to make it a combat ship just doesn't work. T2 ships are by definition specialized in some way. I can't think of anything more specialized than bridging around cyno jammers.
Never fear the new rubi interceptor warp speed will make catching those nul bears infinitely easier without any other help. Bomb shelling systems is about to become very interesting. |
Donbe Scurred
University of Caille Gallente Federation
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote: There is valid room for discussion over the size of the fuel bay/jump range. Perhaps some specialized mid or low Slot mods could address those factors? (Like those for the scanning game)
+1
Combined with the new mobile stations for refitting (assuming they fit in a BR) it should be an elegant solution. |
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
879
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 00:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
With the new cyno jammers coming up blops will be used for PI. Dust collection to be precise. Eve is Real |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.
Those who fly black ops love them Those who don't hate them.
You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed. |
Damian Gene
Bloodtear Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 19:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mathias Orsen wrote:Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.
Those who fly black ops love them Those who don't hate them.
You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed.
Which one(s) do you fly? I have a widow, which, ya.. I use as transport. But I have all the BS's cross trained, though honestly havent even thought of using them for DED Complexes. What complexes can you solo in them? |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1506
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
IIshira wrote:...immune to gate camps and cyno jammers... Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers...
Ooooh.... *drooling commences* "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:IIshira wrote:...immune to gate camps and cyno jammers... Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers... Ooooh.... *drooling commences*
I was trying to funny but that would be awesome. If only ever so slightly OP |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 23:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Damian Gene wrote:Mathias Orsen wrote:Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.
Those who fly black ops love them Those who don't hate them.
You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed. Which one(s) do you fly? I have a widow, which, ya.. I use as transport. But I have all the BS's cross trained, though honestly havent even thought of using them for DED Complexes. What complexes can you solo in them?
Originally bought a widow for plexes because it has a whole lot of tank and can work at long range with a micro jump drive. The DPS was garbage though. Now I use a Panther. It's not a mach but it don't have to use gates either. While I always run DEDs with a friend, I'd say it can solo anything that any t1 BS can solo.
With 3 Domination Gyros and faction ammo, I get 787 DPS from the guns. I use Ogres on stations to bring the DPS to 1100. That is also with a set of hardwires for gunnery. As far as the tank goes.... Well be both know that t2 isn't gonna cut it. You have 4 mid slots to try to fit a tank in as well as needing to come up with Cap to keep the tank running. It's not got the shooting range of the mach so you also need Cap to burn the MWD a lot.
To put it simply, The Widow is the most easy Blops to fit for Plexing. The DPS will make you cry though. Sins are the best option if you are doing them in packs (3-5). The Panther for Plexing just means you are desperate to use a combo of covert cynos and Autocannons. |
Eggs Ackley
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 23:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it?
They can fit covops cloaks now? Cool! |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
They do their intended job very well. A Recon can engage the target, cyno in a fleet of 5-10 to kill the target and all jump out before a response fleet can be formed. |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux Phobia.
226
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Black op battleships are good enough since you can choose how to use them. i would like a mini doomsday though |
Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 20:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.
Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.
As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.
Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.
Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat. |
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Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.
Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.
As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.
Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.
Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat.
There is a whole lot more to Black Ops than what you are seeing in your EFT. First and Foremost, they can cyno right past your fore mentioned gate camp. Going from point "A" to "C" and skipping point "B" all together. Something that a maelstrom or abaddon cannot do. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
530
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 07:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mathias Orsen wrote:Alex Logan wrote:I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.
Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.
As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.
Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.
Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat. There is a whole lot more to Black Ops than what you are seeing in your EFT. First and Foremost, they can cyno right past your fore mentioned gate camp. Going from point "A" to "C" and skipping point "B" all together. Something that a maelstrom or abaddon cannot do.
Issue being God help something can shoot back at them.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
530
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 07:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:With the new cyno jammers coming up blops will be used for PI. Dust collection to be precise.
Convert cynos and jump portals work through jammers. |
Janeway84
Masters Of Destiny Pride Before Fall
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 12:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mak them be able to fit cov op cloak
Or maybe thats for another class of T2 battleship to be able to do |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
106
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 04:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
The new SoE super covop cruiser is also going to make that bridging a much larger power projection asset. Add the mobile jammers so titan drops and supers can't be as mobile. Now you have a case where the blop drop is far away more flexible than your titan.
Given the proven strength of siege fleet. Now add a real combat cruiser that allows T3s and recons back into support roles. And all you need is a covop logi to make blops an amazing tool for small units to project real power. Titans need not apply.
No more point in making the blops a solo power house than there is for the titan and for similar reasons. Its a bridge. That is it's job. |
Baudolino
Kenshin. Against ALL Authorities
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 09:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
while we're at it, just make it so that the blops bridges the firepower of your fleet. That way you can be 100% sure you dont loose anything, and that your 3948844dps actually hit that poor CNR you've been baiting for 8 weeks. |
Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
472
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 21:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.
Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:
Proteus:
Sig of a cruiser Speed of a cruiser Lock of a cruiser 100k EHP Cov Ops Nullifier Very long point. 700 dps cold 6 sec align
Widow Sig of a BS Speed of a BS Terrible lock time 33k EHP (ECM fit) Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min) No Nullifier 1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters) 9 sec align time
We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.
My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men The Revenant Order
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 12:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.
Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:
Proteus:
Sig of a cruiser Speed of a cruiser Lock of a cruiser 100k EHP Cov Ops Nullifier Very long point. 700 dps cold 6 sec align
Widow Sig of a BS Speed of a BS Terrible lock time 33k EHP (ECM fit) Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min) No Nullifier 1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters) 9 sec align time
We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.
My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed.
I think the thing people are arguing is that Blops are just to be used as bridge devices. IMO that is a **** poor excuse for why they don't get cov-ops cloak. Nullbear tears would accumulate if you could interrupt their plex farming bots with a solo blop. |
Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
475
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 02:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.
Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:
Proteus:
Sig of a cruiser Speed of a cruiser Lock of a cruiser 100k EHP Cov Ops Nullifier Very long point. 700 dps cold 6 sec align
Widow Sig of a BS Speed of a BS Terrible lock time 33k EHP (ECM fit) Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min) No Nullifier 1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters) 9 sec align time
We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.
My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed. I think the thing people are arguing is that Blops are just to be used as bridge devices. IMO that is a **** poor excuse for why they don't get cov-ops cloak. Nullbear tears would accumulate if you could interrupt their plex farming bots with a solo blop. Yes it really doesn't make sense does it. Ships should have multiple roles. CCP has indicated they want them to have multiple roles and that has led to the tiericides.
I haven't read a logical argument from anyone who have said "they would be overpowered with covert cloak" as to WHY they would be overpowered. The whole idea of a covert ops fleet (with insta uncloak locking and scan res that a bomber gets) and a black ops suddenly appearing in local on top of you seems extremely more overpowered than a solo black ops.
One could argue that fleets of black ops might form and wtfpwn everyone with OP covert cloaking but as already mentioned fleets of covert bombers and covert T3s are much more mobile, faster locking, have more dps, damage application and EHP either through sig tanking or huge buffer tanks.
The argument against BLOPS covert cloaking is absurd and I believe stems from a desire to keep the ship solely to their own play style and an unfounded fear that it would lead to less safety for the same people when they're not protected in fleet and instead care-bearing in their null systems. |
Julius Priscus
163
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 03:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.
a jump fuel bay yes...
Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.
covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc.
Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.
imo they should be like bs versions of the recons. -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
321
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 06:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.
Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore.
Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up.
If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch.
If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
532
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 07:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons. Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore. Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up. If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch. If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus.
Bombers don't have a lock delay either, even then you still have battleship scan res to deal with.
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Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
482
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Posted - 2013.10.07 08:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons. Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore. Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up. If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch. If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus. If they did get covert cloak I'd say it would be reasonable to add the usual 5 sec delay minimum since they wouldn't have the scan res penalty of a regular cloak anymore.
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1252
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Onictus wrote:... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.
.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun.
This. If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck.
The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux Phobia.
228
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Onictus wrote:... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.
.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun. This. If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck. The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops.
seriously you're complaining after they gave you titan bridging ranges? Then you complain about needing a fuel truck? I personally do not want to see blopsing get so easy everyone does it. |
Batelle
RisingSuns
173
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
If you have the means to have a blops fleet, adding a blockade runner is not that hard.
The ships are plenty useful without a covops cloak. Both as pure bridging and support ships, and as actual combat ships when needed. That they are weaker in a straight brawl than a combat battleship is irrelevant. Fighting is Magic |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 02:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.
Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.
Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role.
I'm guessing that you are not aware that Recon ships are not only specifically designed with Electronic warefare as their main offensive ability, they are also able to be bridged with a Black-Ops.
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Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is somewhat my point. If the balance to the covop mobility is the reduced 'gank' AND people want a role for the blops beyond 'just' the jump portal it needs to be something other than a DPS bonus. So, given the widow already has ewar bonus then the precedent exists.
Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull. Also I might point out that there is already a logistics gap between cruiser and carrier, but that is secondary.
However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op. |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull.
Which is why sometimes people fit RR on BOPS, to facilitate some more staying power. I dunno if a dedicated covert ops RR ship would be too strong.
Froggy Storm wrote:However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.
Yeah they want a cloaky warping Battleship with Battleship dps. Completely ignoring the other benefits of Black Ops ships. Namely the covert jump drive and covert bridge. I think Black Ops are actually a very good example of the need to play together with other people in this game. You just don't gank someone solo in them (unless it is really a squishy thing). You need friends to do it, call it blobbing or whatever, but you also put some serious isk on the line.
Maybe the 'confusion' comes with the progression line. You have Covops, then Recons, which both warp cloaked. Next is Black Ops, which don't warp cloaked. I think many people are like 'hey wait i trained this line because i like cloaky and now in a Battleship i cannot do that, wtf'. While it seems on first glance that Black Ops would be a direct progession from aforementioned classes, they are not - if you only look at the cloaky ability. They do however play nicely with those other classes, as they facilitate the jumping ability for cloakies. Which, being covert has some nice advantages. People seem to copletely ignore this aspect.
I do not know if i would like covert ops warping black ops to be honest. They do what they do quite okay imo. Maybe a better jump range would be beneficient, as would a bigger fuel bay (lets face it if you want to do some jumps and on top of that bridge some people, you need a hauler along). But then again 'power projection' is a thing that can argue against this.
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Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:This is somewhat my point. If the balance to the covop mobility is the reduced 'gank' AND people want a role for the blops beyond 'just' the jump portal it needs to be something other than a DPS bonus. So, given the widow already has ewar bonus then the precedent exists.
Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull. Also I might point out that there is already a logistics gap between cruiser and carrier, but that is secondary.
However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.
This is a good example of someone diving deep into a conversation about a subject they have no clue about. You talk of "Gank" and 1200+ DPS. Sure, Black ops have damage bonuses. What they do not have is a large amount of guns. The only way to get 1200 DPS out of a Black Ops is to fit it with Top End Officer guns and hardwires. |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 02:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
A good example of someone who can't be bothered to read the whole thread. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
488
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 03:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
For killing battleships we can already do this better in a T3. You can do it in a 30 mill bomber if you're careful.
For me its more about survivability than gank. I like solo hunting. I hate cruisers and love battleships but solo battleships in null are problematic to say the least - 1 500k frig at a gate and you're toasted.
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Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
I don't think BO should output more DPS than they're already capable of. In fact I'd even change bonuses in such a way that the pilot can choose only one of low-to-average tank OR low-to-mediocre DPS.
Seriously this ship shouldn't deal more than 400 dps nor tank more than about 40000 EHP because if you get in a situation where you're against anything that can kill that, you're doing something wrong, you're not fulfilling your role.
This is not a ship you fly primarily as a damage dealer or bait or squad tanker. It doesn't belong in a plex or mission either, see marauders or T1 if that's what you need. BO's role is so much different, it doesn't even belong in a gang with anything else than covops/recons.
It shouldn't be compared in any way with other tier 1/2/3 battleships. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
284
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Only fixes needed:
*Sort out the weird and/or useless bonuses (agility on Sin and velocity on Panther may have their uses, but they're kind of awkward in general, redeemer cap use and RoF are sort of counterproductive, etc) *Lower mass while also lowering base velocity and increasing inertia, so that they consume less fuel when jumping but maintain a similar ongrid mobility *Make the Jump Portal Generation skill apply its bonuses to the Covert Jump Portal Generation *Slightly increase scan resolution to compensate for the cloak penalty
Done No sig. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:I don't think BO should output more DPS than they're already capable of. In fact I'd even change bonuses in such a way that the pilot can choose only one of low-to-average tank OR low-to-mediocre DPS.
Seriously this ship shouldn't deal more than 400 dps nor tank more than about 40000 EHP because if you get in a situation where you're against anything that can kill that, you're doing something wrong, you're not fulfilling your role.
This is not a ship you fly primarily as a damage dealer or bait or squad tanker. It doesn't belong in a plex or mission either, see marauders or T1 if that's what you need. BO's role is so much different, it doesn't even belong in a gang with anything else than covops/recons.
It shouldn't be compared in any way with other tier 1/2/3 battleships.
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait. |
Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait.
Wasn't that this ship class' main role? Stealth and JB? EW 2nd, dps/tank 3rd...
So the stealth part sucks due to the lack of covops cloak capability and the JB part due to the (still) limited fuel bay.
One thing I've learned is there's no jack of all trades ship in this game. Even if some people try all sorts of loadouts or throw billions @ officer mods... still each ship class has its role and several other ship classes it can engage and several it shouldn't. There's no ship you can kill "anything" with. There are accidents that cause, for instance, BS km by 2 frigs (ok sure, stupidity) but that don't mean frigs (or any other ship) are/could be/should be universal pwnmobiles with lazors and big perky ****.
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Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
224
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
I love my redeemer, like LOVE!!! But sadly considering its cost, train time, and it being **** for anything other then jump in with a pack of its brothers and gank a target, MJD away, cloak and then repeat..
And before anyone goes, cost shouldnt be a balancing factor. I agree. however we are talking 1.2 billion isk worth of ship with a VERY VERY limited use. If it was cheaper I wouldn't feel bad about throwing it away in fights that I might lose, but it is in my opinion just on the expensive side for that.
680 so DPS with 90k EHP isn't exactly stellar either.
Now is the whole jumping and bridging thing good? HELL YES! It is, but not THAT good. And if you want to bring recons for anti tackle, etc then the fuel cost quickly skyrockets and with that the problem of hauling cap boosters AND fuel.
It is a novelty toy tbh, I love it dearly but.. for that kind of isk a vindicator or bhaal is just so much more effective for just a little bit more in general. Looking at my kill log with the redeemer it isn't all that impressive, sure I missed more then one target as I was the bridger and the portal got killed before my 10 seconds was up so I could jump. and in before: you dont have any kills in a redeemer.. no not on this char, try my alt. linda shadowborn.
Black ops don't need a big tweak, they are nearly there I think. Just a little love (if nothing else better fitting please, the redeemer is a ***** to fit. while I agree ships shouldnt have super generous fittings.. a little love wouldnt go amiss. I shouldnt have to go with all faction/deadspace just to fit what I need. but.. meh :) No matter I will always love it, it is my second favourite ship after my damnation.
edit: seriously with the word filter? wow |
Bibosikus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 09:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Black Ops boats have been around since Trinity (2007). They've been tweaked here & there, but until about three years ago remained largely the property of 'cool dudes' who logged on every now and then and did weird stuff.
Now, with so many more capsuleers edging the 100m sp mark or more and wanting Things To Train, BlOps is a lot more common as a skill under the belt. As such, the pressure to make BlOps actually, properly useful has increased manyfold.
I think the main issue is that they were introduced as Battleships. They didn't need to be, and probably shouldn't have ever been, battleships. That word itself raises expectations among most Eve capsuleers, because "battleships" *kill stuff* and can *tank whole gangs*.
When CCP brought BlOps into play they were doing exactly that. Playing. It was a fabulous idea - something that could bust through the wall of cyno jammers in null and get things interesting - but it was very poorly implemented.
I for one would suggest keeping them as BS but extending their range so that *all* nullsec systems are accessible. They should also be capable of deploying and bridging back a decent-sizd gang. Perhaps a gang capable of taking out cyno jammers in null..
I also think BlOps should be able to tank really, really well. Forget using these boats for dps. They should never have had it in the first place.
/tuppence complete The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
570
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:Onictus wrote:
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait.
Wasn't that this ship class' main role? Stealth and JB? EW 2nd, dps/tank 3rd... So the stealth part sucks due to the lack of covops cloak capability and the JB part due to the (still) limited fuel bay. One thing I've learned is there's no jack of all trades ship in this game. Even if some people try all sorts of loadouts or throw billions @ officer mods... still each ship class has its role and several other ship classes it can engage and several it shouldn't. There's no ship you can kill "anything" with. There are accidents that cause, for instance, BS km by 2 frigs (ok sure, stupidity) but that don't mean frigs (or any other ship) are/could be/should be universal pwnmobiles with lazors and big perky ****.
You do understand that it takes a 3bil isk fit to get a deemer to 100k eHP with like guns right? and even then it barely does the damage of a pulse-poc |
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Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.10.29 00:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
You do understand that it takes a 3bil isk fit to get a deemer to 100k eHP with like guns right? and even then it barely does the damage of a pulse-poc
Nah, those rich carebears will prefer paladins or faction battleships instead.
My point above was, there's no way for a larger fuel bay and covops cloak to make black ops overpowered, like some of the guys above were saying it would become.
Just because it COULD get to 100K EHP doesn't mean anyone will fly it.
It won't become a pwnmobile. It will simply become better at what it's meant to be doing - right now it sucks at it. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 01:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Remove the cloaked speed bonus, give them cov ops so they can move with every other ship in the BO gang, and give them a useful 4th bonus. Either fuel consumption or dps, something useful. Warping cloaked will not make black ops overpowered, it will just make them easier to use. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it?
You countign the new OP SOE cruiser on that? Because it outdps some of the blackops :P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
108
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it? You countign the new OP SOE cruiser on that? Because it outdps some of the blackops :P
Having seen the new cruiser it is going to need some careful tweeks before it comes into line. And if anything it makes the blops' role even more important for real power projection. Then again it will be nice when recons go back to being support ships.
While I've been (more or less) sold on a covop cloak being essential to a "roaming with gang" option, giving it bs+ DPS on top of all the rest is out of the question.
Though above, it was mentioned splitting them by roles might produce some interesting results if done right.
For example only; Make gang ewar based hulls with big fuel bays and covop cloak for drop in and move around blops teams. And then an attack variant with the limited mobility of the current cloak bonus but improved DPS.
You can then apply the one in drops and roams where the other then specialized for siege fleet like a cov-cyno mini dred. Heck, maybe give it the option to trade its jump drive for the bastion of the maurader for sustained tank vs pos guns/mods.
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