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Archare
SKEET ELITE
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
There was an issue with your post.
But to answer the main question (tread name): NO |
Dunmur
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 23:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
NOT EVEN CLOSE |
Koniss
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 23:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
NO GIVE ME A 200% DAMAGE BOOST ON BLASTER AND 300% ON RAILS OR ITS NOT WORTH SKILL HYBRIDS BECAUSE THEY SUX MINMATAR AND AMARR ALWAY WIN AND I JUST GOT THE WEAKEST RACE WITH THE WEAKEST WEAPONS CCP SUX SO MUCH YADDA YADDA
ps: hybrid changes are fine give them time and people will start to use them again the BEST change about hybrids is the reduced fitting stats. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
36
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Posted - 2011.10.31 23:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Didn't address:
Ability to get into blaster range. The minimal DPS advantage over Pulse and ACs if you can get to range. The non-viability of long-range sniping. The problem of Tachyons on optimal-bonused hulls even if ranged sniping was viable.
There is still no reason to fly a blasterboat or a railboat - their specialist jobs are still done about as well by other, much more flexible ships. Absurdly, the greatest beneficiary will be ACs thanks to the insane boost to Hail.
The problem is that hybrids have well-defined roles, while lasers and ACs are too flexible, too good in too many situations. Now, you can boost hybrids by making them more flexible too, but you just end up with homogenised weapons, and everybody knows that this is bad. But the only alternative is to nerf lasers and ACs, to stop them encroaching on and usurping hybrids' roles. But CCP simply doesn't dare to do this, it's too vulnerable after the summer's screwups, it can't afford another threadnought from the short-sighted "wahh wahh no nerfs" crowd.
All we can really hope for is to watch this "fix" fail then come back in six months, when CCP is stronger. |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
110
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Posted - 2011.10.31 23:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Koniss wrote: the BEST change about hybrids is the reduced fitting stats.
Amen, it's been quite frustrating as I've started cross-training, seeing how easily top T2 racial stuff fits for other races, compared to Gallente. This really brings hybrids in line. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 00:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Koniss wrote: the BEST change about hybrids is the reduced fitting stats.
we still have to see how much fitting cost is reduced but just this change do alot, we finally might be able to do a 2rep 2cap booster setup on the hyperion w/o electron blaster, no more cpu problem on the mega the thorax could become a beast sporting a decent tank and awesome dps, this will benefit the deimos too even if it will still have other problems like people that are too afraid of KB stats to go short range with a HAC. the gallente frigs will be the FOTM (especially with the incoming AF boost). tracking bonus its also a nice ad we will be able to use void with 90% of the tracking of actual antimatters and the mega will have a absurd tracking for a BS. the increased speed for blaster boat its a major change, very risky for minmatar, imho a agility boost was a better thing for blaster boats where you have to manouver in short ranges. cap reduction is a minor change and wont effect the game that much (it just help small ships when you dont have a space for a cap booster) but its still a boost
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Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Flatline.
50
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
To mare wrote:Koniss wrote: the BEST change about hybrids is the reduced fitting stats. we still have to see how much fitting cost is reduced but just this change do alot, we finally might be able to do a 2rep 2cap booster setup on the hyperion w/o electron blaster
Your post got me curious, so I looked into EFT and using the claimed 12% reduction in pg-need (cited in the dev blog), an 8-Ion-Blaster Dual-Rep Hyperion is possible, provided an one heavy one medium cap booster setup is used.
Quote:[Hyperion, Winterversion]
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Faint Warp Disruptor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Powergrid: 19406/19690 CPU: 748/750
Assuming 1 Magstab that is a 50 DPS or 7% increase in damage done. Effective Range (optimal + 50% Falloff) changes from 6,75 km to 8,75 km compared to the traditional setup using electron blasters.
Cala |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
111
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
proposed changes are just halfway there. they still only have marginally better dps for much less range atm. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
1600 RT
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:proposed changes are just halfway there. they still only have marginally better dps for much less range atm. yeah me too want moar pls ccp co overboard with hybrid boost and maybe why not nerf amarr and minmatar while you are at it?
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
111
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
1600 RT wrote:Grimpak wrote:proposed changes are just halfway there. they still only have marginally better dps for much less range atm. yeah me too want moar pls ccp go overboard with hybrid boost and maybe why not nerf amarr and minmatar while you are at it?
of course they should cut range of blasters even further.
they should do face-melting dps inside a 10-15km bracket, but beyond that, they should have a hard time scratching paint out of an old barn.
damage projection of blasters should be done by the ships themselves and not the guns. that's the counter-balance point of having a gun that can wtfpwn anything inside its optimal. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
20
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Didn't address:
Ability to get into blaster range. The minimal DPS advantage over Pulse and ACs if you can get to range. The non-viability of long-range sniping. The problem of Tachyons on optimal-bonused hulls even if ranged sniping was viable.
1) Agility on Blaster boats is being reduced - as it should be tbh - Minmatar are the fastest in the straight, Gallente get to speed faster.
2) 200% is a lot. and thats the base stats. Pulse is only good with scorch and the fitting/cap use for them are major disadvantages. ACs are too good - but thats because the TE is a second damage mod and the ammo changes should have been for hybrids and not for projectiles.
3) hu? I guess this is the feeder to Q#4.
4) Tacheons are actually a tier above other large guns - the Mega Beam is the equiv. But then again, look at the fitting and cap use.
and to add - tracking is buffed AND the t2 ammo changes are huge. . .
Overall the changes are huge. Blasters will do a LOT more damage now, Gallente ships will be a lot quicker to max speed, and the reduction in fittings and cap use will allow for a lot more fitting options previously not available. Blasters were and should always remain super close range. I would say that these changes are really good and should do a lot to make blasters really great.
Rails will always do the least DPS at the most range. Artillery will always do the most alpha at the worst ranges, and beams will remain the best middle ground but with major fitting and cap issues.
I would be happy. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
111
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Blasters will do a LOT more damage now, Gallente ships will be a lot quicker to max speed, and the reduction in fittings and cap use will allow for a lot more fitting options previously not available.
in perfect conditions, they still have only marginally better damage.
and said perfect conditions are still a less mobile target sitting at spit range. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Flatline.
50
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Overall the changes are huge. Blasters will do a LOT more damage now, Gallente ships will be a lot quicker to max speed, and the reduction in fittings and cap use will allow for a lot more fitting options previously not available.
A Neutron Mega is a still a Neutron Mega. Having a bit more grid left over wont allow it do more damage, unless we get a new type of blaster.
A Deimos is still a Diemost. Saving 12% grid on guns does not open up any fitting options that allow the ship to be anything than an under-performing, over-priced deathtrap.
Cala |
Cunane Jeran
22
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
I honestly believe the changes go far enough and do fix the big issues. I know a lot of people were hoping for some massive power creep and to see Gallente above those Matari and Amarrian folks but I believe in the long run this reserved approach is for the best.
First and foremost, the fitting and cap requirements being lowered. This was well overdue and in some cases beyond a joke, running the numbers and testing some fits the boost we are getting is far more than is on paper.
PvE: We are going to have 1/2 free slots in mids and rigs Take a 425mm Mega, I've gained a Med slot that was originally a cap re-charger, and a rig slot. That's huge! I've never been one of those cap stable people, I have to add. That mid is an extra Tracking Comp, a huge tracking boost over what was previously feasible and the rig? With the PG reduction I'll be slipping a hybrid rig in there.
PvP: Generally if you like dual rep with blasters you were limited to Electrons or an Electron/Ion mix. Not any more, once again the reductions have added more than what was on paper, by allowing us to fit bigger blasters to existing set ups, and well, the -30% cap reduction is just plain nice in this case.
Then we come to the Rail damage bonus, nothing heavy but it's enough to bring them in line, the damage itself was never terrible, but had issues this is a much needed and welcome buff. It might see them used more in PvP, I've got some experimental fits in mind that might be pretty decent.
Blaster tracking, what can I say, after the web nerf, they needed this though they weren't overly bad or broken, and were always situational. But the extra speed, agility boost and tracking fixes it nicely, more range and more damage, are certainly not needed, if you get caught out by one, faces melt.
Personally I'm rather looking forward to using a Deimos, without being laughed at. |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
21
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
ok, jump down on me then.
i still think its considerable when taken as a whole.
what really happened here is that projectiles got overbuffed - namely the TE and Ammo changes were simply too good when coupled with the low fitting and capless element. i know a lot of people think that lazers are powerful - but remember 3 things - 1) Amarr are the gank/tank race - most of its gunships only have guns. So they naturally have the slightly better gun system and 2) its only with scorch. 3) the fitting and cap use on amarr guns is a major liability in combat.
Overall, I would still be happy. . . I mean, what did you really expect. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
111
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cunane Jeran wrote:more range and more damage, are certainly not needed
in all honesty, they really should get much more damage, but only if they get less range.
their damage quality is improved, but as I said above, atm in perfect conditions they still do just a tiny bit more damage. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Cunane Jeran
22
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:In all honesty, they really should get much more damage, but only if they get less range.
their damage quality is improved, but as I said above, atm in perfect conditions they still do just a tiny bit more damage.
Less range really wouldn't change that much 20% reduction would be a 100m-750m in optimal, so if it was a large damage boost, the range offset would barely register. Lowering the falloff more would just see us being kitted around in my opinion.
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Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Flatline.
50
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:ok, jump down on me then.
I am not Just polity disagreeing with your argument.
Ruah Piskonit wrote: what really happened here is that projectiles got overbuffed - namely the TE and Ammo changes were simply too good when coupled with the low fitting and capless element. i know a lot of people think that lazers are powerful - but remember 3 things - 1) Amarr are the gank/tank race - most of its gunships only have guns. So they naturally have the slightly better gun system and 2) its only with scorch.
We are on the same page here. Especially regarding projectiles and scorch. I'll be a bit pretentious and quote my suggested solutions from the 'Are hybrids inherently broken?' thread in GD:
Calapine wrote:
- Slightly reduce the TE falloff bonus. (for example from 30% down to 25-20%)
- Again, slightly, reduce pulse tracking and reduce scorch DPS. Currently scorch simply obsoletes 2/3 of faction crystals.
- Apply the 10% damage buff from Rails to Blasters as well. Don't touch range or falloff, to avoid the mentioned homogenization of weapon systems.
- Additionally keep the already announced changes. (Speed buff, agility, fitting)
Ruah Piskonit wrote:I mean, what did you really expect
A hybrid-fix that deserves the name?
Cala |
To mare
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Calapine wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote:Overall the changes are huge. Blasters will do a LOT more damage now, Gallente ships will be a lot quicker to max speed, and the reduction in fittings and cap use will allow for a lot more fitting options previously not available. A Neutron Mega is a still a Neutron Mega. Having a bit more grid left over wont allow it do more damage, unless we get a new type of blaster. A Deimos is still a Diemost. Saving 12% grid on guns does not open up any fitting options that allow the ship to be anything than an under-performing, over-priced deathtrap. Cala
the neutron mega will be still able to fit tank & neutrons, but compared to the actual mega you wont have to choose between large cap booster and large neut because you will be able to fit both, plus with the tracking boost of blaster and ship bonus you can use void and still have more tracking than the average BS for a very good damage. the deimos will be finally able to fit a full rack of neutrons and a 800mm plate w/o any fitting mods or even a 1600 plate and a mix of 3/4ions and 1/2 electrons wich is good (plus the speed/agi bonus help on this), now the problem with deimos its you probably dont wann go in short range with a hac but it have a really damn good tank/gank ratio.
oh and TC/TE buff affect blaster as well even if less than projectile. and its not like that minmatar boats have more slot to fit TE/TC than blaster ships |
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Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
21
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Posted - 2011.11.01 02:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Calapine wrote:
Slightly reduce the TE falloff bonus. (for example from 30% down to 25-20%) Again, slightly, reduce pulse tracking and reduce scorch DPS. Currently scorch simply obsoletes 2/3 of faction crystals. Apply the 10% damage buff from Rails to Blasters as well. Don't touch range or falloff, to avoid the mentioned homogenization of weapon systems. Additionally keep the already announced changes. (Speed buff, agility, fitting)
1) TE bonus should be to tracking only - it should never have gotten the Falloff bonus. The only reason it got the falloff bonus was because TDs got the Falloff and optimal bonus with the scripts and people cried. i, and others, argued that a universal answer to a spacific problem that added another damage mod to ACs in particular was broken. the proof is in the math.
2) If pulse tracking and scortch are to be nufed, then I think pulse also deserve a major cap and fitting reduction too. Again, look at what you sacrifice to fit them. I have perfect Amarr skills (ofc I do) and I still need to use ACRs to fit FMPs on cruisers and battlecruiers. . . and don't get me started on how each volley takes away massive amounts of cap or what a single small or medium neut can do to end me in a fight. I cannot stress how many negative aspects there are with lazers. As it stands, many amarr pilots still fit ACs. . .ACs are that good.
3) Ok, more blaster damage. . .
4) ofc.
I honestly think that ACs have surpassed blasters as the premier close range gun. They are super flexible, do fantastic damage that ramps up nicely through falloff, no cap, and practically no fitting. When I fit a mini ship, I fit the guns last. When I fit an Amarr ship, I fit the guns first. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree with scorch.
- - Its funny really. there was a major HP buff not so long ago, and here we are buffing everything back up again. It used to be like so: Blasters - when they were in range, were going to melt you. But the MWD for a Gellente ship was a one way ticket. ACs sucked - but that is why Mini have 2/3 wepon systems on ALL of their ships and have the fastest ones. ACs were just there to add to the entire dps package from all the weapon systems AND they still did less damage overall then any of the other 3 even with max skills. but they were quick - and if flown smart - could dictate the fight. . .that is huge and thats why they were considered the hardest - high skill character requirements/high player skill requirements. Caldari were boring, but long-range and pure damage types and no tracking to deal with.
What we have now is - ACs are balanced to the other 3 races, while keeping all their previous damage reduction and escape traits - Mini have become the easiest race to fly because you turn on your guns as soon as you have the lock . Amarr melt faces for a few mins before capping out. And caldari are still long range and boring - but now have massive tanks.
But I stand by the fact that it was ACs that userped the Blasters role, not scorch lazors. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 03:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Calapine wrote: 1) TE bonus should be to tracking only - it should never have gotten the Falloff bonus. The only reason it got the falloff bonus was because TDs got the Falloff and optimal bonus with the scripts and people cried. i, and others, argued that a universal answer to a spacific problem that added another damage mod to ACs in particular was broken. the proof is in the math.
2)But I stand by the fact that it was ACs that userped the Blasters role, not scorch lazors.
1) TC got the falloff bonus at the same time of TE, before the boost the optimal scipt only gave optimal range. i might agree with you that a 30% is too much but already is done, take it away and you will see the forum full of crap post like when they nerfed nanos (and idk if CCP in this not really good moment want more unsatisfied customers) 2)Laser do more damage than AC at short range and the only AC ships that will confortably step in the web range with a blaster ship are the armored one like the 1600 rupture or the 1600 hurricane and if blaster get the fitting reduction allowing the ship to fit some tank it wont be that easy any more. all the other minmatar ships would stay the hell away from the web range of a blaster ship and that range they surely dont do impressive dps |
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Flatline.
50
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Posted - 2011.11.01 03:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
To mare wrote:the neutron mega will be still able to fit tank & neutrons, but compared to the actual mega you wont have to choose between large cap booster and large neut because you will be able to fit both, plus with the tracking boost of blaster and ship bonus you can use void and still have more tracking than the average BS for a very good damage. the deimos will be finally able to fit a full rack of neutrons and a 800mm plate w/o any fitting mods or even a 1600 plate and a mix of 3/4ions and 1/2 electrons wich is good (plus the speed/agi bonus help on this), now the problem with deimos its you probably dont wann go in short range with a hac but it have a really damn good tank/gank ratio.
oh and TC/TE buff affect blaster as well even if less than projectile. and its not like that minmatar boats have more slot to fit TE/TC than blaster ships
Well, we disagree on what a reasonable improvement is then.
I have never found the medium cap booster an issue on a buffer tanked ship with a single neut/remote rep. I doubt most people who will face off against a Mega post-expansion will notice something has changed.
Re Void: A Mega-Pulse Apoc outdamages a Neutron-Void Mega past 10.5km...that is well within overheated-web range, the supposed domain and niche of blasters.
Re Deimos: Being able to fit a 800mm plate without fitting mods on a 100m ISK T2 HAC that just got buffed is hardly an achievement to brag about. The 1600mm plate Rupture would like to say Hi as well.
Cala |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
111
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Posted - 2011.11.01 03:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Note some ppl are saying Gal agility boost - I thought it was an agility nerf and the agility boost was just early misunderstanding? Clarification? |
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Flatline.
50
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Posted - 2011.11.01 03:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Note some ppl are saying Gal agility boost - I thought it was an agility nerf and the agility boost was just early misunderstanding? Clarification?
The data pulled from the test server indicated an agility nerf, as the inertia modifier got higher. However in the most recent devblog and the accompanying thread CCP Tallest did indeed state that Gallente ships will be more agile not less.
Cala |
Desudes
Pixelmoon The Star League
8
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Posted - 2011.11.01 03:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Enough changes to change things, thus allowing for more balancing actions later. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Baneken
The New Knighthood The Polaris Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2011.11.01 06:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well at least hype will have some use in PvE not that it has roughly 2,5K more grid to fit 425mm rails, not that grid is really as much a problem as the CPU also navy domi is going to be a beast, not to mention extra neut with guns on vanilla Domi. My PvP mega has 0,2 CPU left in it's current fittings and that's after CPU mod. |
Thaddaus Dieneces
Militant Mermen LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 06:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
As the Daredevil is already king of Frigates, the new hybrid fix will make it even better, can't wait. Do wish they'd leave the dramiel be though "I came in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you **** with me, I'll kill you all"
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
9
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Posted - 2011.11.01 10:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
High hopes for Blaster Proteus, it will probably have a great role for breaking gate camps. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.11.01 11:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote: High hopes for Blaster Proteus, it will probably have a great role for breaking gate camps.
Agreed. I'd like to see what a hybrid fitted tengu will do now, too. |
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