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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
darth solo
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Posted - 2006.01.21 14:49:00 -
[1]
This is a worrying trend.
It now seems to be the case that pretty much every ship is fitting ECM... solo pvping is a nonsence, its like a rush to see who can jam eachother fastest, rather than the old way of whom could outskill/outpilot the opponent ... im finding myself CONSTANTLY jammed in this game, from frigs to battleships.. i would rather it was exact, id like to fit low slot backups which highly nerf my setup to guarantee not being jammed against one ship.
its supposed to be a chance thing, but even if the dude misses a cycle the next one usually gets me..
Through testing backups iv been pretty shocked, even with a full rack of them i can still get jammed, i liked the old way was MUCH better where u needed 3 race specific modules to jam a BS..
Fitting ECM on a non ECM ship should be heavilly nerfed.. its highly favours the armour tankers. low slot armour tank with ECM in medium. i know scorps/BBs/griffins have a ECM bonus but its usually to range, most of my fights happen at 20k or less. and Ravens with full rack of stabs and ECM, arghhhh.
darth will never use it, ECM is for girls and fairies. in fact if ur in a non ecm ship but use ECM modules ur ship should turn pink. the more ECM u use the more pink it gets.
anyways just ma thoughts, i know alot of other ppl whom are pee'd with it.
d solo.
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Hellraiza666
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Posted - 2006.01.21 14:54:00 -
[2]
i said since they bought the chance based **** out, that it is crap and should of stayed as it was.
Bring back the 3 racials or 5 multis back, where back up arrays added to your sensor strength and made them need more jammers, instead of them not even working now --------------------------------------------
In War There Are No Runners Up...
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NoNameNewbie
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Posted - 2006.01.21 14:59:00 -
[3]
actually i have to say ... 100% agree
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Jenna H4ze
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Posted - 2006.01.21 15:08:00 -
[4]
yep it's a load of balls
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.01.21 15:15:00 -
[5]
It's kind of annoying i suppose. But then again, there's no point to fitting anything else atm.
But tbh, its just tactics evolving. I mean, dedicated jamming scorpions were nice and all, but the less ships have EW, the easier it is to call those primary, or get them jammed themselfs. The more you spread your EW out over all your ships, the bigger chance of SOME of it staying in the fight.
Atleast for multi's though, they arent really all that effective. I've had fights where it just failed to jamm a Battleship for half an hour STRAIGHT, then worked 5-6 cycles straight. Chance of that happening is fairly small, i tell ya.
The only thing i dont like about the current ECM system is it doesnt require attention. Yes, i fit two ECM mods on my ships too when in fleetbattles. But how's that work? I pick two appropriate (ie the proper race) targets, turn on my jammers and FORGET ABOUT THEM. If that could be changed, i think itd go a long way in fixing it.
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QuantumX
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Posted - 2006.01.21 15:16:00 -
[6]
I agree that currently its too easy to jam, but i also think the old system was crap.
The ECM currently needs to have the chances of being jammed decreased, and the skills to become an great EW Pilot should be on par with getting great gunnery skills or missile skills.
A top of the range EW pilot should have to invest alot of SP into the electronics skills to be able to jam.
========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.01.21 15:33:00 -
[7]
would be nice if they decreased the time jammed, 18 sec is a lot. :\
"We brake for nobody"
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2006.01.21 16:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock would be nice if they decreased the time jammed, 18 sec is a lot. :\
Agreed.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.21 16:50:00 -
[9]
Hm since yesterday, where i was permajammed for a fwe minutwes during a certain fleet engagement, I must admit I feel that backup arrays still have too little power.
I had two abckup array II's fitted, for a 60% increase on signal strenght, on a megathron.
Of course, I aw at least 4 people had locked me, and since I did not take any damage at all I can only assume they were all jamming me, or trying to.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.21 16:51:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/01/2006 16:51:06
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock would be nice if they decreased the time jammed, 18 sec is a lot. :\
That hardly matters does it ?
And decreasing chance of a succesfull roll when trying to jam isn't neede either imo. What is needed is more viable defence against it.
Backup arrays that just add 30% is simply too little.
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Malken
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Posted - 2006.01.21 16:53:00 -
[11]
the old system was better then what we have now. ive even tried a geddon with 8 backup arrays and was still perma jammed by a merlin with one module for 4min straight. its redicilous.
on EW overhaul CCP gets a F-
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iNOX
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Posted - 2006.01.21 16:58:00 -
[12]
Maybe ECM hardpoints(like turret hardpoins) will help but only on EW ships like BB Arbitrator and others.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:00:00 -
[13]
EW only ships ............. I like jamming and I have no problem "feeling" special and putting some skill into it.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:02:00 -
[14]
The system now ..... is very very very broken !!!
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: darth solo in fact if ur in a non ecm ship but use ECM modules ur ship should turn pink. the more ECM u use the more pink it gets
wouldn't discourage it, seriously. and even it discouraged some people, it would make others put ECM on every ship they fly
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Lithiani
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:17:00 -
[16]
Speaking as a Blackbird Pilot...
Originally by: Elve Sorrow It's kind of annoying i suppose. But then again, there's no point to fitting anything else atm.
ECCM?. Or you could fit an ECCM Projector and use a little communication with your battlegroup and cast ECCM on whoever is suffering Jammer attacks the worst. Projectors are actually the most effecient way of countering ECM Target Jammers, on a slot-to-usefulness ratio. A Projector basically reduces the chance of Jamming by half, and it's already a low enough chance to Jam a Battleship unless you have the skills to back it up.
<SNIP>
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Atleast for multi's though, they arent really all that effective.
They'll never be as effective as an appropriate racial Jammer, but with the right skills behind them (which I'll come to in a bit...) they can be highly effective.
Originally by: Elve Sorrow The only thing i dont like about the current ECM system is it doesnt require attention. Yes, i fit two ECM mods on my ships too when in fleetbattles. But how's that work? I pick two appropriate (ie the proper race) targets, turn on my jammers and FORGET ABOUT THEM. If that could be changed, i think itd go a long way in fixing it.
Speaking as a Blackbird pilot, that's just about the least efficient use of ECM Target Jammers there is. Getting the most out of an EWar bird requires a lot of micromanagement. When I'm working in battlegroups in my Blackbird, I'm constantly cycling targets in and out, running through a Jam routine on my main victims and watching for opportunities to Jam additional targets to help out. Frankly, it's my missile launchers I turn on and forget about
Originally by: QuantumX I agree that currently its too easy to jam, but i also think the old system was crap.
The ECM currently needs to have the chances of being jammed decreased, and the skills to become an great EW Pilot should be on par with getting great gunnery skills or missile skills.
A top of the range EW pilot should have to invest alot of SP into the electronics skills to be able to jam.
Directly involved in EWar:
Electronics Warfare (2) Signal Dispersion (5) Frequency Modulation (3) Long Distance Jamming (4) Long Range Targetting (2)
Indirectly involved:
Electronics (have to have 5 for Signal Dispersion) Targetting & Multitasking (you need the ability to lock a lot of targets so you can cycle for maximum efficiency) Signature Analysis (EWar vs. EWar, he who locks first wins)
Plus, due to the Capacitor cost of Multispectrals (that you have to use as a dedicated EWar pilot because you've got a lot more targets you have to deal with, and they will not be racially vulnerable) you'll need high Energy Management and Systems operation.
Plus ship of choice (which is a horrible selection of skills that you won't be using, if you're dealing with the Rook)
And then you have the skills for the other EWar systems that compliment the Target Jammers, especially Target Dampners (when they work...).
It takes a lot of SP to be a good EWar pilot. Doing it will not ultimately actually harm anyone directly, and if you get unlucky then situations can blow up in your face for no good reason of your own making - but you will be the one on the line for it. Plus you have the defence of a small paper doll because your midslots have to be full of EWar gear.
Seriously though, if you are fitting an EWar module, turning it on and forgetting about it, and then cursing when you get Target Jammed - switch to using an ECCM module, or get some teamwork and have some ECCM Projectors going.
I'll repeat, simply in case anyone missed it - the best protection against Target Jamming is an ECCM Projector. +100% Sensor Strength
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Lithiani
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/01/2006 16:51:06
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock would be nice if they decreased the time jammed, 18 sec is a lot. :\
That hardly matters does it ?
And decreasing chance of a succesfull roll when trying to jam isn't neede either imo. What is needed is more viable defence against it.
Backup arrays that just add 30% is simply too little.
Use a midslot 50%er or a teammate with a projector for 100% boost. Frankly it's hard enough to Jam battleships as it is, let alone with a real boost to sensor strength. The low slot backups are low powered.
Also, reducing the cycle time will make the problem worse, not better, because the time you loose lock for is X+relock_time. Part of the skill of getting the most out of an EWar bird revolves around cyclicly jamming targets and shifting Jammers to take advantage of the few seconds between lock end and next lock when they still can't do anything because they are trying to gain lock.
Speed the cycle up and we actually get more free time to shift the Jammer ahead overall, albeit we'll have to do it faster.
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:35:00 -
[18]
yeah agreed, ive always hated the ecm system, more specifically how backups are next to useless.
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:39:00 -
[19]
"What is needed is more viable defence against it.
Backup arrays that just add 30% is simply too little."
I think what might be issue here is, the benefit of fitting the array is typically quite lower than the strength increase percentage of it would imply... against any ship running more than a single jammer.
(regular tech.1 gear, maxed relevant skill)
4x multi-spectral jammer vs 21 sensor strength ship
* base chance to jam on each cycle: 66.3% * with 1 backup array: 57.1% (16.2% odds increase for attacked ship) * with 2 backup arrays: 48.4% (17.9% odds increase)
etc. the benefit of defense grows, but even the 8th array doesn't offer more than 23% increase in defense, relative to ship with 7 arrays fitted) This gets even more acute vs ship equipped with racial jammers (the defense gain drops to 12-15% per array) and vs ship with bonus to jammer strength.
I suppose the bonus provided by single array could be significantly increased to counter that, but at the same time there should be stacking penalty applied to it, otherwise things are likely to get quite silly. o.O;
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Jonkai
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:40:00 -
[20]
Agree with that 100%, the current system needs looking at. Backup arrays are completely useless and offer no backup at all.
Most ships I've come across now have at least 1 ECM module fitted, that's fair enough but when you can not counter it, it's...
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darth solo
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Posted - 2006.01.21 17:47:00 -
[21]
My problem is more with my opponents 1 module jamming me out.
Now let me think, iv a free slot, should i put on an extra cap recharger in med?, an extra sensor booster?, maybe an extra tracking comp?.... nope, lets put on ONE module that is basically a win button if u have the LUCK, yes, the LUCK for it to work... luck isnt something i like relying on...
Their is no counter for this and now pretty much everyone is using 1-3 ecm modules... i know this because im a tempest pilot and always first to be jammed.
I feel like ppls hands have been forced, i dont blame u folks, i mean in a small scale fight whats the point in having a little more cap, a little more tragetting speed, a little more tracking, when u can fit one module that could turn the entire battle.
CCP sort it out its rather silly. id just like to be able to shoot the bad folks sometimes. im thinking of not even loading my guns.
d solo.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.01.21 18:02:00 -
[22]
no offence to the thread starter...
But this is typical 'i just got shot down - nerf plz' thread.
Prolly your ship just got shot down by an EW Setup....so what? I myself didnt see so much EW lately in solo pvp, yeah from Scorps for sure, but not from anything other, since EW also nerfs your cap(see cap usage for t2 multispecs) and your CPU(try fitting 3+ t2 multispecs on non-caldari ship and then still get a good setup).
-=-
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.01.21 18:09:00 -
[23]
So how does one actually keep a bs jammed for several minutes using a single racial jammer? That never quite seems to work for me, coming to think of it the chances of jamming a bs with a single jammer a pretty small...
As for nerfing Ewar, go adapt -------------
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Lithiani
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Posted - 2006.01.21 18:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malken the old system was better then what we have now. ive even tried a geddon with 8 backup arrays and was still perma jammed by a merlin with one module for 4min straight. its redicilous.
I hope that Merlin Pilot bought a lottery ticket, because with luck like that he'd be bound to win millions.
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2006.01.21 18:16:00 -
[25]
yes the old system was far better
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
Cade Morrigan
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Posted - 2006.01.21 19:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lithiani
Originally by: Malken the old system was better then what we have now. ive even tried a geddon with 8 backup arrays and was still perma jammed by a merlin with one module for 4min straight. its redicilous.
I hope that Merlin Pilot bought a lottery ticket, because with luck like that he'd be bound to win millions.
No doubt. I didn't realize the Merlin had a 500% bonus to jammer strength, i'd better get mine set up for EW!!. Psssh.
While I scoff at the "ECM = I WIN" claims, I do think backups should have more effect than they have now.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2006.01.21 19:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sky Hunter no offence to the thread starter...
But this is typical 'i just got shot down - nerf plz' thread.
Prolly your ship just got shot down by an EW Setup....so what? I myself didnt see so much EW lately in solo pvp, yeah from Scorps for sure, but not from anything other, since EW also nerfs your cap(see cap usage for t2 multispecs) and your CPU(try fitting 3+ t2 multispecs on non-caldari ship and then still get a good setup).
u dont see a problem with pretty much every ship that has a spare medium slot fitting ecm? that at this moment has NO counter that works like it should?, and is done through CHANCE...
My threads are not typical... i post when i see an obvious problem and i was not just shot down, this is over a period of time by either myself getting jammed or looking at ppls setups in killmails.
U just need to look at the vids that are out the now where ppls setups show.... not many are without ECM.
too much of something is bad..
Old system was miles better than the one we have the now, it was done on maths, u have no sensor strengh u cant lock, to get a lock u must increase ur sensor strengh above 0. at least u knew where u stood and what u actually needed to do to counter it.
d solo.
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Lithiani
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Posted - 2006.01.21 19:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Lithiani
Originally by: Malken the old system was better then what we have now. ive even tried a geddon with 8 backup arrays and was still perma jammed by a merlin with one module for 4min straight. its redicilous.
I hope that Merlin Pilot bought a lottery ticket, because with luck like that he'd be bound to win millions.
No doubt. I didn't realize the Merlin had a 500% bonus to jammer strength, i'd better get mine set up for EW!!. Psssh.
While I scoff at the "ECM = I WIN" claims, I do think backups should have more effect than they have now.
If you make them too much better, ECM will be largely worthless. The flexibility is there for anyone to use ECM in certain circumstances. I think the point of ECM is to promote teamwork, hence why the remote projectors are the best - with 100% buff to sensor strength for the basic T1 unnamed.
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Lithiani
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Posted - 2006.01.21 19:39:00 -
[29]
The problem with the old system was that it was a straight "who can pee highest" competition. An all-or-nothing system that was mathematically very easy to abuse.
Let me ask you a question: have you tried swapping your midslot ECMs out for ECCM?
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Kashre
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Posted - 2006.01.21 19:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kashre on 21/01/2006 19:52:43 Edited by: Kashre on 21/01/2006 19:51:40 The old system was crap. Only the caldari could jam under the old system cause you needed 6 mids to be effective at it.
The solution, imo, is to keep the current chance based jamming, but make ECCM subtract from the jamming strength of the jammers rather than add to the strength of the jam-ees sensors. Not across the board, but 1 jammer at a time.
i.e. 1 T1 ECCM = -3 jam strength on one enemy jammer. 1 T1 mid-slot active eccm = -5 str on one jammer. Extra ECCM applies their effect to the first affected jammer before moving on to the next one. So if you had , for instance 2 -3 ECCMS and I had 2 5-point jammers, I'd end up with a +0 jammer and a +4 jammer.
Introduce an ECCM skill so that a really good pilot with T2 active ECCMs could concievable get a -10 rating, so that if you were good enough and rich enough you could cancel out the jammers of a T2 scorp on a 1-1 basis, but if you're skill/gear wasn't so hot you cancel theem out on a 3-1 or 2-1 basis. Even then a scorp is gonna get you with the 5th and 6th jammers, but he will be jamming one ship, not 6.
It will be fairly easy to counter the cheezy single jammer setups, but it leaves dedicated EW setups viable on ships belonging to races with sub-caldari numbers of mids. +++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
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