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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1597
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 22:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
From another thread
Malcanis wrote:No I don't see the "huge" ISK value as much of an issue. For the following reasons:
1) The Somer people have more ISK than they know what to do with. The ISK value of this award is meaningless to them.
2) And that ISK value is pretty hypothetical. And it's based purely on the rarity of the Ishscorps given out so far. Note that so far. CCP have said outright that they've given these out before and they're going to be given out again. The mere fact of giving out another 30 has significantly reduced the rarity of these ships.
In fact I think that giving gametime to Somer would be much less appropriate than the Ishscorps. That really would be a straight up money gift, rather than what amounts to a set of harmless souveniers.
For the first point, ISK is ISK, even if SOMER had a lot already, since the value of ISK must be measured against how much other players have. If more scorps are being given out, there's lots of ISK being redistributed to a lot of people. However, your second argument would relieve that concern. If you say the price will be at an acceptable level, I'll trust your judgement
Does CCP have certain numbers in mind when it comes to number of giveaways or a target price for the scorps, even if you won't say the numbers? It'd be best if CCP was open about where and what numbers of scorps are given away and if CCP released their guidelines on what kinds of groups/players will get them |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11987
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 22:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
Well have fun being angry about this for another day or two, I'm off to bed.
1 Kings 12:11
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1597
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 22:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ah, I didn't reply to the gametime bit. I don't think a straight-up worth-realbuxx gametime gift would be a bad thing but that's just going to be a difference in opinion, I guess. Ripard mentioned in the comments of his blog he has a total of two free accounts from CCP at the moment. One for CSM, one for a popular blog. Prominent figures in the community and content creators are pretty much partners of CCP in making EVE the game it is, and as gametime isn't an ingame advantage, and also since we want to keep such people around, I think that makes gametime the best gift.
I'd even be fine with CCP giving prominent FCs or coalition leaders gametime, except I know EVE players would game the system so it's not practical vOv |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
220
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 23:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well have fun being angry about this for another day or two, I'm off to bed. Well, one should always see the positive side in everything. And if there has been one positive thing about these recent incidents, it's to see which of the CSM dudes actually understand the core workings of the game and are willing to protect them. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1315
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 23:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Wow.
CSM failing at the one task that really matters, and the whole reason it exists in the first place. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
409
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 23:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Malcanis wrote:Well have fun being angry about this for another day or two, I'm off to bed. Well, one should always see the positive side in everything. And if there has been one positive thing about these recent incidents, it's to see which of the CSM dudes actually understand the core workings of the game and are willing to protect them.
I'm curious. Exactly how do these ships 'change the balance of the game'. Lets ignore the poor mechanic on how these were given out in a non transparent manner for this, and pretend hypothetically that it was given out in a transparent manner here. How does giving the ships out destroy the core workings?
They are just Scorpions. With generally weaker stats even (as they are the old version before tiericide I believe). The ships themselves are not some horribly OP thing, or some unique capability.
They have an isk value sure. But isk can be bought via plex, acquired via market trading in large sums, or via simply grinding at a billion a day. And that isk value so far was based on their extreme rarity. Meaning if they become the de-facto 'community award' ship, that value will plummet since people know they are more common than that, and will continue to become even more common over time with more community awards.
So... How do the ships themselves threaten the core workings of the game? |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 01:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
I wonder if we'd have the same debate if instead of Ishukone Scorpions CCP would have handed out a "Honorary Certificate" item to reward community sites/persons. |
None ofthe Above
841
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 01:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Personally I am not in panic about the SOMER BLINK scandal.
I do see a few places where this all could have been handled better, so understand why players can rightly be upset.
I didn't like the idea of reviving ships that were promised to be Unique, but that was fixed. (Lore wise, I have no problem with the NPCs changing their mind and making ships that were formerly unavailable or limited runs. But I feel CCP should keep it's promises.)
Key thing that is getting lost in the scuffle:
To my mind I think it's a good thing that CCP has realized that one of it's greatest assets in EVE is it's playerbase. I like that they are doing things to support that. The community focuses, the supported fansites. Sponsored and attended RL events.
SOMER has a track record of sponsoring EVE related events. CCP has worked with them before. It's only natural that they continued to grow that relationship. Perhaps they went a little too far this last time, and I appreciate their corrections of pulling back a bit with prizes.
The community is letting CCP know that a line has been crossed, in their view. That's all fine, but let us not cripple their ability to sponsor future events and enter into co-marketing arrangements with player groups. I see this as critical to the ongoing success of EVE.
So let us give some thought to how this could be handled in a more reasonable fashion. And how we can help make EVE last into the THIRD decade, shall we? The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 03:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:[quote=Manu Militari]
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.
When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. And I doubt even more that when a corporation sponsors a charity walk, you say "hey, I support that charity walk, I should pay the corporation that sponsors it instead of them for being such good guys."
You and the other CSM are saying "well Somer pays something to X, and we like X, so let's pay Somer." That is obviously stupid. If CCP wants to support X, pay X directly.
Do you have a financial or personal interest in Somer Blink? Have they or anyone associated given you anything? You and the other CSM are making so little sense on why they deserve free things that there is no other reasonable explanation. You in particular have made a lot of good posts in the past, and I can't believe you would be so dumb as to believe a highly profitable gambling venture deserves free things because they advertise. |
Red Templar
Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation
312
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 05:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Manu Militari wrote:
There is nothing wrong with CCP rewarding Somer. They reward many small time bloggers with free Plex and Subscriptions on a regular basis. Considering Somer's contribution is proportionately larger so is their reward.
Yeah pretty much. The ISK value of the award to Somer is pretty much irrelevant. Somer have so much ISK that the ISK factor is meaningless to them - not to mention that the rarity value (and let's remember that rarity is all the trade value they have) of these ships just took a nosedive because they're now much less rare. And they're going to get even less rare in future as CCP hand more of them out to other deserving individuals. Comparing this to the T20 incident is just dumb and wrong. The original plan of giving Somer Guardian Vexors and Gold Magnates was a horrible idea that cannibalised EVE's history for a short term PR event. Giving ships that have been specifically purposed as a community award as a community award to an organisation that has supported the community is pretty straightforward. The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward. While i agree with what you said, about value is not high enough for somer, and rewards being not such a big deal, this incident should be used to demonstrate that secret gift giving is bad. It was very poorly done. And while the impact this time wasnt big, we shouldn't really wait for something of a T20 caliber to emerge. Lessons should be learned from this blunder, and company should be better for it in the future.
It would be worse if nobody cared at all about something like this.
First they gave out Ishukones, and I didn't speak out because It wasnt a big deal.
Then they gave out BPO's, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a industrialist.
Then they gave out titans, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a cap pilot.
Then they gave out Rifters. and there was no one left to speak for me. For Love. For Peace. For Honor.
For None of the Above.
For Pony! |
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2462
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 06:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:Manu Militari wrote:Since CCP has set the precedent of giving such rewards to community contributors they find worthy, such as Somer, maybe you all should get off your high horses and work to contribute in a similar manner. Yes, Somer is a for profit gambling site. Yes, Somer employees make ISK. But that does not detract from the contributions Somer makes for Eve. Feel free to contribute to the community in a profitable way and CCP may recognize you.
Somer sponsors some of the more high profile Eve media contributors in the game; PVP Videos, Podcasts, etc. Somer sponsors many of the Eve CCP created and player created tournaments and prizes. Somer sponsors community groups within Eve such as RvB.
Somer does a lot for the Eve community. Why is it that everytime CCP does something its always a scandal? CCP takes the Eve community seriously and Eve players seem to take that for granted and whine about every CCP action that benefits someone else.
There is nothing wrong with CCP rewarding Somer. They reward many small time bloggers with free Plex and Subscriptions on a regular basis. Considering Somer's contribution is proportionately larger so is their reward. This just in: Marketing is charity. Who said anything about charity? The post I quoted seems under the impression that Somer sponsors people and events out of the goodness of their hearts, rather than as a marketing campaign. CCP: Not out to ruin your game, out to ruin their game. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11997
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 06:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Montmazar wrote:Malcanis wrote:[quote=Manu Militari]
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward. When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.
What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
1 Kings 12:11
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Rob Crowley
State War Academy
220
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So... How do the ships themselves threaten the core workings of the game? This has been explained many times over several threadnaughts now, but ok, I'll try once more:
The core element of Eve which sets it apart from other games is its sandbox nature where players can do (to a degree) whatever they want and compete with other players. Paraphrasing one of the higher-up devs recently (might have been Unifex): "The players are at the helm. They decide where the game goes." So in order to provide such a sandbox it is important that CCP does not unnecessarily meddle around with it. This means that in particular they can't mess with the inter-player competition by supporting one group of players. Somer is run for-profit within the sandbox and therefore in direct ingame competition with all kinds of similar lotteries, gambling or betting services. CCP directly supported Somer twice by giving them massive ingame valuables to auction off and by giving them the very valuable IScorps (those were worth ~20b a piece when Somer got them, it doesn't matter how much they'll be worth in a year when CCP has given out more, because of the secrecy people didn't even know back then that there would be so many more of them). On top of that they also endorsed the service and claimed that it's legitimate on the forums. All of this is directly supporting Somer and therefore directly hurting everyone competing with Somer. It's a distortion of competition and therefore damaging the very core of the sandbox.
The most fitting analogy is a sports game in which the referee is supporting one team and it doesn't matter if he does it because the team is so popular or because they're playing so well or because they provide him with profitable high-interest games. It also doesn't matter if the support is actually gonna change the game's result or not, a referee must stay impartial or the core of the game is damaged.
As players we are paying our subscriptions for a fair, level playing field, insofar that we're only competing with other players and we can do the same as all other players if we want to and invest the same effort. Once we are competing with CCP (or CCP-supported players) it becomes unfair and the game is basically rigged.
Malcanis wrote:What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest. This isn't church, it's sports. Call me naive, but I expect referees to be impartial, even if they might think it's in their enlightened self interest to support one of the teams. Which btw I don't believe it is, cause if people are leaving the game in droves because it became apparent that it's rigged then business might not be so great anymore. |
Disco Soliloquy
Major Kong Freight
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Montmazar wrote:Malcanis wrote:[quote=Manu Militari]
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward. When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
The analogy was beer company equating to Somer Blink. Not beer company equating to CCP Games.
If CCP wants more player-driven content, reward the people that organize that content, not the people who are sponsoring it for their own profit-driven ends.
If Budweiser (Somer) sponsors breast cancer research (RvB Ganks), should the government (CCP) reward cancer researchers or should they reward Budweiser?
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Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
224
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
I like it when people try to compare video games to reality. It lets me know who's entirely lost sight of the reality horizon. |
Disco Soliloquy
Major Kong Freight
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
Abditus Cularius wrote:I like it when people try to compare video games to reality. It lets me know who's entirely lost sight of the reality horizon. CCP Games is real-life. And their flavour of community support is likewise. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11997
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Disco Soliloquy wrote:Malcanis wrote:Montmazar wrote:Malcanis wrote:[quote=Manu Militari]
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward. When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
The analogy was beer company equating to Somer Blink. Not beer company equating to CCP Games. If CCP wants more player-driven content, reward the people that organize that content, not the people who are sponsoring it for their own profit-driven ends.
I'm sure CCP will take your marketing advice on board.
For myself I'm confused because the goalposts have shifted so many times I'm not even sure what you're mad about now. Now it seems that it's OK for CCP to give community awards, you just disagree with the receipient of this particular award.
1 Kings 12:11
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Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Montmazar wrote:Malcanis wrote:Manu Militari wrote:
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.
When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies. Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward. Further, even if one did feel Somer deserves a reward for something, why should they be rewarded over their competitors? CCP giving things to one in-game entity over another competing in-game entity is known as favoritism and that exact thing was the genesis of the entire fake politician space job whose position you now so uselessly occupy. edit: [quote=Malcanis]Now it seems that it's OK for CCP to give community awards, you just disagree with the receipient of this particular award.
Congratulations, you have stumbled onto one of the relevant issues. Since you are having trouble with this, I will break down some others in a simple format
-favoritism (Somer has competitors)
-supplying items to what may very well be an RMT ring
-insider trading information passed to Somer
-Somer does not deserve anything in the first place |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11997
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
Montmazar wrote:
As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies.
Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward.
OK now we're getting to the gist of it.
What do you know about why Somer got the award? Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?
1 Kings 12:11
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Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:09:00 -
[50] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Montmazar wrote:
As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies.
Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward.
OK now we're getting to the gist of it. What do you know about why Somer got the award? Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?
Why does my opinion carry weight? Are we going back to the classic "CCP is a private company!!" as if that is some sort of shocking revelation? Are you kidding? My opinion has weight because I am a dissatisfied customer. CCP cares so much about dissatisfied customers, especially in regards to matters of favoritism and in-game give aways, that they once created something called the CSM.
Let me flip this: what do you think your job as CSM is?
As for your other question, I don't know anything about why Somer got the award, because Somer kept it secret, CCP kept it secret, and CSM representatives like yourself are incompetent.
I do know based on statements here that Cribba who would actually deserve a community award says he hasn't gotten anything like this, and I know from statements elsewhere that Eve Bet, a competitor, also says they haven't gotten them.
So it doesn't seem to be community service, despite what you and other CSMs have been trying to imply or occasionally outright state, because if so Chriba and others who actually do provide such services would have gotten one. And it does seem to be favoritism, because their competitor didn't get them. |
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Sar'ran Zorn
St. Albans' Refuge
32
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Posted - 2013.10.07 10:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?
Incarna taught him that if he's offended enough about inconsequential events in a video game, people who matter in the world will listen to him.
Mittens told him this is a good inconsequential event in a video game to be outraged about. |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Sar'ran Zorn wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?
Incarna taught him that if he's offended enough about inconsequential events in a video game, people who matter in the world will listen to him. Mittens told him this is a good inconsequential event in a video game to be outraged about.
FYI, this would have more bite if you weren't nodding along with a internet space game politician. |
Sar'ran Zorn
St. Albans' Refuge
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
I gotta ask - do you still get a special tickle when Mittens reaches up inside you to work the mouth, or are you just all wrecked down there?
I mean, with all the overuse lately, it's gotta be looking like a deflated innertube by now. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6000
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
Does your mother know you're up this early? -áFavoritism is good - CCP 2013 |
Rengerel en Distel
1994
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 12:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
To get away from analogies, and everything else, I think the main point is that most players would rather CCP not give in-game things to individual groups at all, regardless of what that group has done. Community spotlights? Sure, I guess, though it should never have been for 3rd party RMT gambling sites. Want to make t-shirts for them at fanfest? Sure, great idea. Want to make Blink tokens to hand out at EVE Vegas? Super, doesn't change the balance in the game at all.
Want to give 30 ships to someone in private? Nope, because they now have a knowledge about the supply of the ships no one else has, leading to a direct in game advantage when selling them.
Want to give one site free ships to give to the community? Nope, because they have competition, and you're both endorsing them, and stating to the player base that they are in fact not a scam. You open yourself up for a tsunami of petitions if they ever do decide to just take everything they have and go away.
I can see why the CSM members who are hoping to get free swag themselves are backing CCP, but I'm not sure why the others are doing it beyond brown-nosing. It really is OK to disagree with CCP sometimes, some of them will still listen to you on other things.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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None ofthe Above
841
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 14:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Manu Militari wrote:Since CCP has set the precedent of giving such rewards to community contributors they find worthy, such as Somer, maybe you all should get off your high horses and work to contribute in a similar manner. Yes, Somer is a for profit gambling site. Yes, Somer employees make ISK. But that does not detract from the contributions Somer makes for Eve. Feel free to contribute to the community in a profitable way and CCP may recognize you.
Somer sponsors some of the more high profile Eve media contributors in the game; PVP Videos, Podcasts, etc. Somer sponsors many of the Eve CCP created and player created tournaments and prizes. Somer sponsors community groups within Eve such as RvB.
Somer does a lot for the Eve community. Why is it that everytime CCP does something its always a scandal? CCP takes the Eve community seriously and Eve players seem to take that for granted and whine about every CCP action that benefits someone else.
There is nothing wrong with CCP rewarding Somer. They reward many small time bloggers with free Plex and Subscriptions on a regular basis. Considering Somer's contribution is proportionately larger so is their reward. This just in: Marketing is charity.
This is not news, except to certain idealist young goons, apparently. I hate burst your innocence but much of funding for charitable and other "good works" comes from corporate coffers in an attempt to "give back". Much of the time, this a cynical attempt to reform their image.
Somer at least is giving back to it's community and attempting to help it grow.
It's perfectly reasonable that CCP would seek to reward and incentivize such activity. I hope it doesn't stop with Somer and goes around to others in turn.
It is reasonable for you and others to point out that there needs to be standards and transparency. But this growing mob is going beyond that and threatens to cripple CCP's ability to support the community. Please be reasonable.
The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
None ofthe Above
841
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:05:00 -
[57] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:To get away from analogies, and everything else, I think the main point is that most players would rather CCP not give in-game things to individual groups at all, regardless of what that group has done. Community spotlights? Sure, I guess, though it should never have been for 3rd party RMT gambling sites. Want to make t-shirts for them at fanfest? Sure, great idea. Want to make Blink tokens to hand out at EVE Vegas? Super, doesn't change the balance in the game at all.
Want to give 30 ships to someone in private? Nope, because they now have a knowledge about the supply of the ships no one else has, leading to a direct in game advantage when selling them.
Want to give one site free ships to give to the community? Nope, because they have competition, and you're both endorsing them, and stating to the player base that they are in fact not a scam. You open yourself up for a tsunami of petitions if they ever do decide to just take everything they have and go away.
I can see why the CSM members who are hoping to get free swag themselves are backing CCP, but I'm not sure why the others are doing it beyond brown-nosing. It really is OK to disagree with CCP sometimes, some of them will still listen to you on other things.
Valid points on "insider knowledge" of market condition changes. Interesting point about the endorsement of Blink and potentially open themselves up to petitions about Blink's veracity.
I don't really buy that CSM is cowed or brown nosing. This CSM thinks for itself as far as I can see, and has raised some of these issues with CCP. They just don't happen to agree with you on completely at this time (well the ones you talking to here anyway, this CSM also has diverse opinions).
Keep it up with the good points and keep the insults to a minimum and maybe you can persuade them.
To be constructive, this conversation needs to turn to how to do this community building outreach better. Not just rage about how CCP dared to try to promote community growth and stumbled.
The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
Bronco Platz
Intercosmic Fruit Company
91
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Montmazar wrote:Malcanis wrote:[quote=Manu Militari]
The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward. When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
But to get a commercial advantage CCP had to make the reward formal and not in secret. I mean, if they don-¦t tell the People: "He! Do something for the community like Somer and you can get assests worth a lot of ISK, too!" there is no effect.
This is the point in this hole mess, I don-¦t understand. |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
274
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Wow this got outta hand.
Locked.
Please use this thread to discuss this issue. ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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