Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Alice Loreley
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 09:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Many things in our beloved EVE are just amazing, some others are not good at all and some - absolutely disgusting. EVE is more then 10 years old MMO with magnificent potential and now i see clearly how the CCP is going to realise all of this potential. Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's. Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market. Is that right? Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge. Let's take a look - part of community using t2 equipment is very close in numbers to entire game population. Many characters are skilled enough to use t2 modules and they buy this equipment as soon as they reach the trading hub.
But the number of industrialists able to produce t2 equipment without significant losses is very-very low. And the invention system of present time just kills any hope to success. And as the final blow - you're just not able to withstand to someone who has a t2 bpo.
Some turns to solve this problem are obviously not good. But what if the solution is known for a long time? It's not so difficult to rise invention chances and replace ME & PE in t2 bpc from -4 to 0. And maybe it's not a bad idea to cut any t2 bpo's off the game at all.
Let's discuss
|
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
641
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 09:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge.
You might want to run those numbers again, invention is far from without profit.
|
Raphael Celestine
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 10:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
I make most of my money building T2 items from invented BPCs, and I've never noticed that T2 BPOs are causing me any significant problems.
There are a few items where T2 BPOs can dominate the market, true, but they're generally poor choices to build anyway. For a lot of items, even running every T2 BPO 24/7 doesn't come close to building enough to satisfy demand - and if you can't satisfy demand, you can't dominate the market.
It's certainly easy to get burned by inventing the wrong items, but that's because of other inventors at least as often as T2 BPOs.
At this point, in a lot of ways, T2 BPOs are a side-show. They dominate a few small markets for goods - which are ones that sell unusually slowly anyway - and they tie up enormous amounts of ISK compared to the amount of income they produce. You're doing well if you can pay off the purchase price of a T2 BPO in less than a couple of years.
I'd consider buying one if I had a few trillion ISK burning a hole in my pocket and nothing else to do with it, but mostly they're a waste of money. |
Vanchelon
Aurum Aquila
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 10:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
~200b in ~10 months (not playing "full time" all months either) from T2 subcaps and jump freighters, all while doing invention. Margins are 20-40% depending on the market fluctuations (speculation, shortages, odyssey etc). Got a little burned last spring due to the jump freighter market crashing, but didn't really lose money.
It's most definitely not monopolized in the larger sense. A few ships that sell poorly are more affected by T2 BPOs, but that's about it.
Helped a friend of mine get started. Loaned him some subcap component BPOs, 15 billion and my expertise. 1.5 months later he was at around 25b. It's very profitable, if you know what you're doing :) |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
641
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:EDIT: Elena Thiesant wrote:Alice Loreley wrote: Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge. You might want to run those numbers again, invention is far from without profit. Depends on how you're doing it. Invention-without-paying-enough-attention can be very much 'without profit' ... but that's not the fault of T2 BPOs.
True, true.
Not specific to invention or T2. How many times have we seen someone post a 'I made a whole bunch of cruisers/battlecruisers/battleships and I have to sell them at a loss!!11!! Industry is borken!' ? |
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 13:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
T2 Invention is very profitable for many items (makes me wish I wasn't so lazy and actually invent/manufacture things)
And most T2 BPOs aren't owned by their "lucky" winners, they are owned by the rich people that bought them off of those lucky winners. |
Dersk
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 15:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: the number of industrialists able to produce t2 equipment without significant losses is very-very low
Then they aren't smart enough to stop looking at others, and take the piles of isk falling from the sky. |
Termy Rockling
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 18:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
I dont think any serious industrialist would produce T2 if it wasnt decent profit. If some item is not profitable, people dont make it, then it gets rare due to low supply and price increases. |
brinelan
The Flying Dead Insidious Empire
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 01:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market.
Lucky, as in gave large quantities of isk to by them? if that's what you mean then yes they were lucky.
Invention makes piles of isk, as long as you can do first grade math then you'll be rolling in isk in no time. |
Alpharius Aleutinus
Ascon Research
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 05:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Would you please drop it already? There is no T2 BPO production monopoly.(maybe for a very few items which take way too much time to copy vs profit like cloaking device) Have some reads on the web. The BPOs can manufacture only a certain amount of goods. To satisfy the full demand is necessary to invent,
Invention IS profitable. Right now there are some problems with the materials market related to the moon goo Odyssey change, and overall mineral re-balancing. This has deems many T2 ships unprofitable. But there are profitable invention goods in Eden. |
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2127
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 05:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote:Let's discuss You must be new to manufacturing, as you are completely wrong, or another Brewlar Kuvakei alt.
T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.
I've earned hundreds of billions of ISK inventing. I've never owned a T2 BPO, nor do I want to.
There is no T2 BPO monopoly. |
Carden
Sovereign Logistical Defense
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: Many things were said here, didn't read as I was distracted by a shiny object.
Monopoly ....I don't think that word means what you think it means....
Not too sure how long you've been playing Alice so long story short, invention is fairly balanced. It might need some tweaking not too sure as it's been a few years since I dabbled in it but even with low but focused skills you can out produce a T2 BPO holder. Quantity will control the over all market price and frankly the inventors have the quantity to survive the minor hiccups of BPO owners throwing a few cheap items out on the market.
In some respects I would like to see T2 BPO's given out on occasion it would make things a little more entertaining.
Alice Loreley wrote:Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market.
Yes, some bought them some got them during the original release. I still have my Praetor II BPO from the closing lottery, I use it to line my TV dinner tray. Eve much like life is not fair, thus you must either work hard, work together or out think those around you to get ahead.
This particular horse is dead, the vultures that were snacking on it years ago are long dead. Their bones have crumbled to dust and blew away in winds of change. The horse is dead. |
Zinn Irate
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 14:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: ... Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge. ....
Seems to me that you're having trouble profiting from your T2 inventions, a problem many of us don't have. You assume your problem has something to do with a monopoly (?) created by T2 BPOs. No. You're just not doing it right.
I'll give you a hint that may be helpful. Training skills on your character isn't the path to profitability. You have to master procurement and efficiency, and those have nothing to do with character skills. |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1644
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 14:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
My money's on this.
Wish I wasn't so terribad at the market ... as it stands, I'm lucky to be making a billion in profit/month ... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
91
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
I make plenty of isk via invention, and even though I own a t2 bpo I don't even use it (mostly because it is a useless one). I mostly just keep it for my collection of BPOs. You have to account for that too, not everyone who owns a T2 BPO is using it, or is even still playing. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
Ninlarra
Tounge punching fart boxes Iron Oxide.
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alice Loreley wrote: But the number of industrialists able to produce t2 equipment without significant losses is very-very low. And the invention system of present time just kills any hope to success. And as the final blow - you're just not able to withstand to someone who has a t2 bpo.
This horrifically uninformed statement pisses me off. It pisses me off because you obviously have ZERO idea wtf you are talking about but for some reason still have the testicular fortitude to actually comment on it. How could you have done an iota of research on this subject and yet still make such an asinine statement?
I'll tell you how. YOU DIDN'T!
I started doing industry June 21st of this year. I started with 4.8 billion isk, no production skills, an unskilled alt, no pos, no idea how many different materials/components went into T2 and zero BPOs.
I'm not going to go into detail but suffice to say I have a **** ton more isk and assets now than when I started.
I suppose I should be happy there are idiots like you sitting around not producing anything cause its "just not possible" to make isk off of t2 production. You know what. Ignore this post. Carry on =p |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
212
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
nice to see you are still insane brewlar |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2688
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
How long ago did the t2 BPO lottery end? At LEAST 5+ years ago (Source), although I've heard estimates of 7-8 years ago (source).
You might have had a case for obliterating T2 BPOs many, many years ago, where people originally obtained t2 BPO's by luck. However, at this point, most people that have them worked for them (by thieving, killing, or buying them). Removing them now is just wrong on many levels, primarily because you're destroying years of efforts of many players that use them as investment items, which acquired them by fair and balanced means.
Now, no one (intelligent) can dispute that T2 BPO's allow players to produce a t2 items more profitably compared to invention (that is, when you ignore the cost of acquiring the t2 BPO). But most items in game are profitably produced by invention, and attacking the BPO holders really won't result in you making more isk (instead, you'll just realize more quickly that you are just bad at T2 Production, probably because you aren't informed).
So, before you respond, you need to go look at the facts:
In March 2012, the percentage of modules produce from invention:
93.95% of T2 Gyrostabilizers, 89.77% of 1400mm II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II.
In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:
90.23% of Hulks, 67.85% of Sabres 65.01% of Wolves 22.16% of Pilgrims 6.00% of Eagles
Data Source Additional Data Source Direct Source <-- Have to search to find the relevant tweets.
Here's the point: Modules and Ammo are primarily produced through invention, so removal of those BPO's wont do anything but HURT the BPO holder.... These producers wont see more profit, and the consumers wont get any items cheaper.... Considering the work most BPO holders put in to acquire their BPO, this is just cruel and wrong to do!!!! Now, Ship production is often dominated by t2 BPO holders... however these items move slowly, and typically priced BELOW the invention production cost.... so removing these BPO's would result in HIGHER PRICES for people that want to buy these ships.... How is that good???? Sure, it means people that want to produce Eagles via invention could then make a profit, but who wants to reward the idiotic fool that is trying to produce slow moving T2 Ships for profit by paying more for those ships????
I have few more points: 1.) Many serious producers secure moongoo and minerals at BELOW MARKET VALUE. If you are competing against them, you're just going to lose.... Should this be fixed too? I think not, I like getting cheaper items....
2.) I'm not opposed to giving a boon to t2 production at POS's, such that we can produce t2 items at high-ME levels (which won't really alter module production all that much, but will ammo & ship production). The caveat.... this new POS production module can ONLY be done in LOWSEC or NULLSEC....
3.) I'd like there to be more risk to using ALL BPOs.... Having a BPO safely locked away in a station where it's at extremely low risk seems broken to me.... I realize we can't force expensive BPOs to be used AT THE POS until POS's have been revamped so players can have secure-able POS hangars, but implementing something like this would be awesome!!
4.) This is the duplicate of an old post I made... many things have changed in the last year (new decrytpors, ship balance changes have altered supply/demand curves, the moongoo bottleneck has changed), but the message is the same. You can make plenty of isk via invention, and you can compete in most MFG markets. If you are having trouble making ends meet, it is because of your incompetence, not because of some mythical T2 BPO holder!
|
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
647
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:How long ago did the t2 BPO lottery end?
I believe it was Revelations - 29 Nov 2006
Quote: Invention
Invention will open wider access to the Tech Level II industry, specifically by gathering data, tools, materials, and technology through Exploration and Research Agent means. By processing this data using decryptors and datacores, utilizing Tech Level I blueprint copies, and disassembling altered versions of modules, you can create limited-run blueprint copies of Tech Level II items, but with one disadvantage: They will be very inefficient and time-consuming to manufacture. This provides you with a way to break into the Tech Level II business, providing market competition opportunity for those willing to put in the effort, while still allowing original Tech Level II manufacturers to keep their edge in longevity, efficiency, and production time. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2130
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:WeGÇÖre in the final stages of the next big update (called Revelations) and things are getting quite hectic here at CCP. Blood, Sweat and Tears flow freely and Oveur is getting hairier by the minute. Yet despite this IGÇÖm taking time off to write you guys this blog. If that isnGÇÖt a sure sign of my affection for yGÇÖall I donGÇÖt know what is (well, one thing comes to mind, but it involves a lot of lubricants).
The subject of todayGÇÖs blog is the much touted invention system. Once upon a time it was called reverse engineering, but we didnGÇÖt like it and sent it away and adopted invention instead, which is much more adorable and sometimes washes my car too. IGÇÖm not sure what the other Band of Bloggers have told you about invention in their blogs, so IGÇÖll just assume youGÇÖre all blissfully ignorant.
In essence, invention is the process in which you take a tech I blueprint, jiggle it around and get a tech II blueprint as a result. Nessie is the Mother of Invention
CCP Oveur wrote:We think it's time. It's time to do what has been on the wishlist for a long time, removing the blueprint original lottery. It's not just that we have the Invention to replace it with but we think that with recent events, it's important that we move this transition up in priority. You have lost faith in the lottery and we should address that. And today's winning Lottery Numbers are... |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4237
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Here's the point: Modules and Ammo are primarily produced through invention, so removal of those BPO's wont do anything but HURT the BPO holder....
Better point: At the time of those posts, the "worst" module, the Expanded Cargohold II, with 81% of supply produced by BPO was profitable to invent.
Literally the instant the market demands more of an item than the BPOs for that item can provide, they become irrelevant in setting the market price. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
675
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
I's say that there are three kinds of posters who claim that T2 BPOs makes it impossible to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.
- Trolls.
- People who fail at market research and/or basic math.
- People who are making money on invention and doesn't want the unwashed masses to interfere in their markets.
Hmm, wait a sec, I'm on my own list.
I've changed my mind.
There's absolutely no way to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
|
Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 06:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.
Minor quibble: a market being unprofitable for invention and a market's volume being dominated by T2 BPO production are not independent. If T2 BPOs all vanished tomorrow, presumably prices would go up in the low-volume markets. Either invention would become profitable or people would completely stop using the affected item, and I really have trouble seeing the latter happening on many items as the cost difference between BPOs and invented BPCs, and thus the price spike, is rarely egregious.
The pro-T2 BPO camp has several good arguments, but "inventors would not benefit from T2 BPO removal" is overreach. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4238
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 07:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kethas Protagonist wrote:The pro-T2 BPO camp has several good arguments, but "inventors would not benefit from T2 BPO removal" is overreach.
The set of "items not worth inventing" is not the same as the set of "items where invention loses money."
There are already tons of high margin, low volume T2 goods to produce via invention. They're a horrible pain to get sold if you end up making some (they get really peaky because lots of people come running). How does adding more to that pile help inventors?
Remember, for the most part, a rational inventor is product agnostic, so the price spike for low volume items will have to be much higher than simply the additional material and invention costs for inventors to produce them.
BPO owners are relatively locked into their production, so they'll keep churning their low volume production so long as they can get a reasonable profit (in ISK/hr, not % return, ofc).
Inventors would not benefit from the removal of T2 BPOs because inventors are able to avoid those markets dominated by BPOs without cost, the market price of markets not dominated by BPOs is unaffected by them, and the markets not dominated by BPOs are far more numerous than those that are so dominated. In other words, feeding Jita's hyperbolic 3 Crow/month habit is not going to be particularly appealing for inventors. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Sturmwolke
458
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
They actually got nerfed when CCP moved T2 materials into the "Extra Materials" portion. Coupled with the lower datacores costs and decryptor changes, the gap between T2 invention and T2 BPOs was considerably narrowed, to almost negligible level for some items (where the bulk loss comes from invention costs - not manufacturing).
The field is a little flatter now compared to back a few years ago. Waiting for the next nerf cycle |
Deunan Tenephais
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:People who are making money on invention and doesn't want the unwashed masses to interfere in their markets. Unwashed masses getting some T2 BPO ? Of course... |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Deunan Tenephais wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:People who are making money on invention and doesn't want the unwashed masses to interfere in their markets. Unwashed masses getting some T2 BPO ? Of course... Unwashed masses making money on T2 BPCs.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
|
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 18:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oh noes! I don't have a T2 BPO, how will I ever spend the Billion in profit I make every month? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Carden
Sovereign Logistical Defense
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 07:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Oh noes! I don't have a T2 BPO, how will I ever spend the Billion in profit I make every month?
Pay my bar tab |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
335
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 09:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
I keep being told you can't make a profit from T2 invention, my wallet balance and overstuffed ship hanger must obviously be illusions brought on by drinking to much Quafe. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |