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Blacksuns
Industrial Experts of New Eden
19
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Posted - 2013.10.07 06:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello Fellow Traders
Is Trading withinin eve dying ? i think it is to a point eg slowing down becoming less popular, two many traders, ppl dont have time to etc...
Awarrness : other players becoming aware of the isk there loosing out on by performing a quick sale therefore cutting out the "trader on the buy orders" and setting there own "sell order" and also undercutting sellers "traders"
Players sill perform a quick sale to items that dont have a huge margin profit to be made but this is becoming a big problem for traders
a trader can setup a buy order for 300 of x item but player y comes to jita and has 11 x item see's the margin profit and is willing to wait by setting up a sell order. not using the quick sale option
5 - 6 years ago this was not somthing players were that aware of therefore Traders were able to trade on a huge scale, trading has become alot harder.
More Traders : There are alot more traders then there were 5 - 6 years go when trade wthin eve took off big time so the compitition is alot more harder.
Time : I think ppl who had time other the last 5 - 6 years dont have as much time as they use to i keep thinking to my self what has changed for me to spend less time on eve to trade and run my corp.
CCP : my CCP nurf items therefore driving down the profit margin items that used to be a good trade for years are now used to be refined or a quick sale and not worth trading.
Blacksuns
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Nanatoa
301
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Posted - 2013.10.07 06:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your argument boiled down: "The World of Trading within Eve is dying because there are too many traders." Do you see where that argument goes wrong?
Shrinking profit margins are an indication of healthy trading and the Market doing its work. "Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
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Felicity Love
Whore and Peace
885
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Posted - 2013.10.07 06:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Everyone is busy grinding LP's for those new ships...
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Jerex Deka
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.10.07 06:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
As a new trader with a recent loan, I am seeing great profits, within Jita of alll places.
Honestly I feel it's better now than it was in the summer. |
Blacksuns
Industrial Experts of New Eden
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 06:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jerex Deka wrote:As a new trader with a recent loan, I am seeing great profits, within Jita of alll places.
Honestly I feel it's better now than it was in the summer.
yes the summer is slow for trading alot of ppl take breaks |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1069
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Posted - 2013.10.07 07:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
The availability of near perfect near up-to-date cross-region price information is quite awful. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1193
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Posted - 2013.10.07 07:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Blacksuns wrote:Is Trading withinin eve dying ? i think it is to a point eg slowing down becoming less popular, two many traders I don't think "less popular" means the same thing you think it means ("too many traders"). |
Innately Awesome
ATAC OTMOPO3OK B KOCMOCE Inver Brass
2
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Posted - 2013.10.07 07:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
The only thing that is killing trading in EVE is 0.01 ISK trade bots who have unlimited amounts of free time. |
Mor Profitis
H and M Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2013.10.07 11:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Innately Awesome wrote:The only thing that is killing trading in EVE is 0.01 ISK trade bots who have unlimited amounts of free time. If everyone would just adjust their orders by thousands or millions of isk at a time, that would be way better than .01 |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1321
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Posted - 2013.10.07 12:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Trading is for bottom-scraping bot aspirants.
Speculation is the sport of true SpaceKings. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
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Rykker Bow
118
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Posted - 2013.10.07 12:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Over the past four years of trading I've seen no evidence that trading is dying at the moment. My personal returns have increased if anything. Certain items within the market can go through cycles of profitability or outright collapse but keeping current in the portfolio of items traded should counter that easily.
Compared to two or three years ago the number of bots have decreased dramatically in my opinion. Compared to last year there were fewer traders in the market areas I traded which, while making my trading life easier, it did made some manipulations much more difficult.
My last run through the market was profitable, quite enjoyable for me and seems healthy as ever.
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Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
17
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Posted - 2013.10.07 12:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Trading is a key part of the economy of eve. If you buy something, it is there because someone put the sell order up (unelss it is an NPC good). Certain markets may dwindle, but Eve trading never dies until the server is off permanently. |
arabella blood
I Swear She Looked 18
190
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Posted - 2013.10.07 14:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Is the world of Trading within eve Dying ???
Yes. This post killed it. Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1489
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Posted - 2013.10.08 15:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
op is trolling. he has to be.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Heinky
Viziam Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2013.10.08 19:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
With the removal of faction items and such on contracts, the market got allooot smaller.... so less free plexes and ccp wins |
joyous the
Slippery Penguin
18
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Posted - 2013.10.08 22:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Innately Awesome wrote:The only thing that is killing trading in EVE is 0.01 ISK trade bots who have unlimited amounts of free time.
You should petition CCP to make it a rule players trading is capped at the amount of time you have to play per day.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4376
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Posted - 2013.10.08 23:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Blacksuns wrote:Hello Fellow Traders
Is Trading withinin eve dying ? i think it is to a point eg slowing down becoming less popular, two many traders, ppl dont have time to etc...
Awarrness : other players becoming aware of the isk there loosing out on by performing a quick sale therefore cutting out the "trader on the buy orders" and setting there own "sell order" and also undercutting sellers "traders"
Players sill perform a quick sale to items that dont have a huge margin profit to be made but this is becoming a big problem for traders
Markets exist because they are a self optimizing facility, born to bring in ever more competitive prices and thin spreads.
You are just witnessing properly working markets in action.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2013.10.09 02:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Blacksuns wrote:Hello Fellow Traders
Is Trading withinin eve dying ? i think it is to a point eg slowing down becoming less popular, two many traders, ppl dont have time to etc...
Awarrness : other players becoming aware of the isk there loosing out on by performing a quick sale therefore cutting out the "trader on the buy orders" and setting there own "sell order" and also undercutting sellers "traders"
Players sill perform a quick sale to items that dont have a huge margin profit to be made but this is becoming a big problem for traders
Markets exist because they are a self optimizing facility, born to bring in ever more competitive prices and thin spreads. You are just witnessing properly working markets in action.
That was my thought as well. Now if the op learns from the market he will trade in goods that have a decent profit or move to new ground were there is less competition. I swear everyone in eve goes to Jita then finds out its hard to do business there then declare all of eve is just like Jita in their mind anyway and thus we have a post like the op presented to us all.
The nature of PVP in the market either force out your competition or move to greener pastures yourself. This leads to things like the new order exectera. |
Aldebaran Aubaris
Free-lances ACME Holding Conglomerate
12
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Posted - 2013.10.21 11:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think its more a question of *where* they're trading more than anything, Jita is absurdly saturated, I tend to use other markets. |
Travonus Trapoll
Blackwater Logistics
0
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Posted - 2013.10.21 12:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only thing i have found during my 3 months of eve is that the more FTP players fr the so many days will try earn the 500+mill to get plex. Now not saying trade in general but mining ore is getting harder as prices are now lowering alot. Apart from that i've made alot of profit buying and trading goods across eve. it certainly is not dieing. |
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
828
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Posted - 2013.10.21 13:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Is trading in EVE dieing? Absolutely not. As the OP said, the are to many traders. Dieing would mean the number of traders were dropping off.
Trading is not dieing, it is becoming mainstream. everyone is now doing it, at least to some extent.
Trading is becoming less and less profitable, but that is not because it is dieing, but because it has become more popular than the market can sustain. It is becoming harder and harder to get rich off trading. Only players with billions of isk to play with can turn a decent profit, if you can make 5-10% profit you are doing great.
However I do see where the OP is coming from. 5 years ago you could get very rich very quickly through trading. Back then it was common to see 50% profits on a trade. But now trading has become so popular it has pulled profits down to the bare minimum.
The best way to push out your competition is to make sure they can not make any isk competing with you. Much like we have seen in manufacturing, without all skills maxed out the profits are just not there. Now we are seeing the same thing with trading. If you do not have all the relevant skills maxed out, you will have a hard time making profit.
Those that do have the skills maxed out, make up for the lower profits by dealing in larger volumes. Just as we have seen in manufacturing for several years now. If those high volume trades make less than 5% profit, it is very easy for that 5% to get eaten up by taxes and broker fees. What this means is the traders that have put in the time to max out the skills, and build up standing with the right corps. These traders can corner the market on those high volume goods. If the isk you are spending on taxes and broker fees is going in their pocket as profit, then they can sell at a lower cost differential than you can. Effectively pushing you out of the market. or at least making that market not profitable for you. Then with less competition, they can do higher volumes to make up for the lower profit per trade.
The only advice I can give is get used to it, it is only going to get worse. As more and more traders get there skills and standings up, the margins will get tighter and tighter. |
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
75
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Well I made a little bit over 2 billion over the weekend over 10 bil of capital just by buying and selling stuff in Jita so let it die I say. |
Felicity Love
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
912
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Posted - 2013.10.21 17:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
It's the pre-expansion slump combined with the post-summer slump and the back-to-school slump.
If only a few well-placed supernovae would liven things up a bit... I'm sure those nasty Talocan left a few nasty surprises... sigh.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
17
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Posted - 2013.10.22 14:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Everyone is busy grinding LP's for those new ships that won't be available until Rubicon...
Thus ensuring they will be completely worthless in the first few months... lol |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4451
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Posted - 2013.10.22 17:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dex Thunakar wrote:Felicity Love wrote:Everyone is busy grinding LP's for those new ships that won't be available until Rubicon... Thus ensuring they will be completely worthless in the first few months... lol
That's one of the marvellous things about trading: you look at all those slaves grinding their lives off making undervalued LP and slowly shake your head. Later on you'll pick up that very stuff and, with no effort, will trade for higher profits than they did in a month of hard work. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
1278
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Posted - 2013.10.22 23:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:... but because it has become more popular than the market can sustain.
Ain't no such thing. There is no limit to the number of people that can trade. There are limits to how many people can be on the buy side or the sell side of any one particular market. This is of course what makes markets go up and down.
Find where are the sheep are, hop to the other side of the fence and eat the grass. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
146
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Posted - 2013.10.24 00:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:The availability of near perfect near up-to-date cross-region price information is quite awful.
I've made a good portion of my EVE fortune selling goods for more than people know they should cost.
I even sell stuff in the forge regularly for prices 30% above what they can clearly see they cost if they took 4 jumps to Jita
The same is even more true in other regions....
You do need to move some stuff ... at times what I do might be called "retailing" rather than "trading" ... depending how much moving there was going on. Yeah, if I do enough of that I'm reducing the volume in the HUBs.. to the extent people didn't need to go there to get the same thing. I don't know if you define that as less trading or not. Removing this signature seems to be beyond my UI navagation capacity. -á(I suppose I could just use a -á" . ") |
Ron Fifer
sabuperandum
0
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Posted - 2013.10.24 11:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
The level of overall intelligence and patience among traders is what's dropping.
That's what's leading to diminishing profits.
A few observations i can list here, which many traders are completely ignorant of and would have otherwise increased their profits:
1) Item Elasticity: It is the how willing the customers are to purchase an item given its price fluctuation. Some items have very high elasticity; meaning that people will still buy it no matter how high the prices went up or down. Real life examples: Gasoline and Drinking Water. It is senseless to engage in egoistic price wars over such items. You're just making your pie smaller; destroying value. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence
2) Following the lead of low sec systems: If you are in a trade hub and some smartass put up a sell order in a low sec system, same region, undercutting your price by 30%, you don't have to undercut him and fall into the trap. People will still buy from you at the trade hub in hi sec. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence, Patience
3) Let the market clean itself: some people like mission runners put up random sell/buy orders at prices which are way off market average in hi sec systems. Those are easy to identify and are usually in low quantities. Let them pass and let the market clean itself. No need to engage in price wars following their lead. They most likely forgot about the order 5 minutes later. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence, Patience
If traders know what I'm talking about they can all still make money, but much more of it. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
146
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ron Fifer wrote:The level of overall intelligence and patience among traders is what's dropping.
That's what's leading to diminishing profits.
A few observations i can list here, which many traders are completely ignorant of and would have otherwise increased their profits:
1) Item Elasticity: It is how willing the customers are to purchase an item given its price fluctuation. Some items have very high elasticity; meaning that people will still buy it no matter how high the prices went up or down. Real life examples: Gasoline and Drinking Water. It is senseless to engage in egoistic price wars over such items. You're just making your pie smaller; destroying value. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence
2) Following the lead of low sec systems: If you are in a trade hub and some smartass put up a sell order in a low sec system, same region, undercutting your price by 30%, you don't have to undercut him and fall into the trap. People will still buy from you at the trade hub in hi sec. You have the geographical advantage, make use of it. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence, Patience
3) Let the market clean itself: some people like mission runners put up random sell/buy orders at prices which are way off market average in hi sec systems. Those are easy to identify and are usually in low quantities. Let them pass and let the market clean itself. No need to engage in price wars following their lead. They most likely forgot about the order 5 minutes later. Missing Trader Attribute: Intelligence, Patience
If traders know what I'm talking about they can all still make money, but much more of it.
I think that you are missing an element here..
you're using this model that applies to the real world and also applies to EVE but .. the orders of magnitude are so much greater for what might seem like "large ticket" items
that really.. many pilots are being Irrational when they seek the lowest price.. if seeing that price will take them 10 minutes.
That is predicated on a players's ability to earn high ISK per hour . I understand that maybe only 25% of players or maybe even 10% of players earn ISK per hour on the Incursion Scale of isk per minute. On the other side of the spectrum.. there are people who buy their isk via PLEX .. where they see 100 million isk as 2 or 3$ that they'd gladly pay not to fly 6 jumps to jita and 6 jumps back... taking an extra 15 minutes just to buy a fit ship for 100 million instead of 200 million.
Basically a big chunk of pilots who lose a ship 6 or 7 jumps out are better off if they pay twice the cost of million isk modules and pay 40% more for a hull IF they can fit the ship out of their inventory at their deployment station and things for sale in their system
RATIONAL players.. should create what might look like an irational values . Those are rational players who value their time Opportunity-cost-ingame and/or buy isk from a mind set that they'd gladly pay $ to avoid drudgery in game.
Basically.. the issue is:
players can make enough isk to buy a "big purchase item" ship, in an hour or two.. many who do incursions might pay for a fit BC in 20 minutes
REAL LIFE Analogy : Buying Milk or Beer or Coke at the corner store when you're out. --- sometimes it is worth palying 5$ instead of driving 5 to 20 more minutes each way to go to the lower priced supermarket.. walk in from the parking lot etc.
Ships in EVE.. evern with T2 modules are more like Milk in terms of human hours taken, and not even remotely like purchasing a car which takes a whole year of work.
Saving ISK to get a "good deal" on a 5 turrets.. "not getting ripped off paying 2 million isk each when they sell for 1 million in jita"... is ROLE PLAY.... its just based on immersion and sense that "this is valuable , I should get a good deal" .... saving 6 million isk from the 6 turrets just isn't remotely worth pausing from other activities you would prefer doing or that mke you isk
It is good role play though.. without "immersion" we don't have a game .. and the idea "this is valuable" is an important part of the buy in.
1/2 of my trading activities are role play.. maybe more. I know if I wanted to optimized my Isk/hour trading I'd just scale out the same things I know make isk all over the universe (I do to some extent to pay for my accounts) and never tinker around witth stuff that makes me150 million a month with a lot of attention needed.
. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
669
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Posted - 2013.11.08 09:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Blacksuns wrote:Hello Fellow Traders
Is Trading withinin eve dying ? i think it is to a point eg slowing down becoming less popular, two many traders, ppl dont have time to etc...
Awarrness : other players becoming aware of the isk there loosing out on by performing a quick sale therefore cutting out the "trader on the buy orders" and setting there own "sell order" and also undercutting sellers "traders"
Players sill perform a quick sale to items that dont have a huge margin profit to be made but this is becoming a big problem for traders
a trader can setup a buy order for 300 of x item but player y comes to jita and has 11 x item see's the margin profit and is willing to wait by setting up a sell order. not using the quick sale option
5 - 6 years ago this was not somthing players were that aware of therefore Traders were able to trade on a huge scale, trading has become alot harder.
More Traders : There are alot more traders then there were 5 - 6 years go when trade wthin eve took off big time so the compitition is alot more harder.
Time : I think ppl who had time other the last 5 - 6 years dont have as much time as they use to i keep thinking to my self what has changed for me to spend less time on eve to trade and run my corp.
CCP : my CCP nurf items therefore driving down the profit margin items that used to be a good trade for years are now used to be refined or a quick sale and not worth trading.
Blacksuns
I think im going to hit the markets again one of these days.
My tactic will be extreme diversification and braud spread of goods and services.
In tough times, the markets like diversification and attention to detail, short term investments are less preferred over long term investments to.
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