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Jordan Jansen
Space Gardening Services
0
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Posted - 2013.10.07 09:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been searching the forums, and can't find anything directly related to what I'm going to suggest, if there are any posts about it please point them out to me and excuse my "low forum search skill level"
A Jump Freighters' ONLY TASK is to JUMP goods long distances, it can't do anything else but that. Why then can a carrier jump further? (The volume of a carrier is less than a JF, but is has more mass than the JF, dunno if this matters)
JF's are the T2's of the normal Freighters, and they have around a 3rd of the cargo capacity of the normal freighters, both have the same Volume and Mass, which means the "jump" technology is using up all the other space in the JF.
I'm not so good with the maths required for this, but to me it seems the JF got the short end of the stick, it only has Jump technology, which is outdated compared to carriers and the JF costs a hell of a lot more than carriers. I think the JF Jump Tech needs to be upgraded so the JF can jump further than a carrier (and more cargo space would be nice too, but I won't push that issue ).
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
330
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Posted - 2013.10.07 10:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
I don't find it strange that a commercial vessel has inferior jump range to a combat ship. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1642
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Posted - 2013.10.07 10:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because carriers are warships, and JFs are not ... so carriers get the more dangerous/cutting edge tech, and JFs get the slightly less good "commercial" variant.
Same as a GPS ... military grade ones are accurate to a few meters ... but commercial ones are usually a few tens of meters. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Jordan Jansen
0
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Posted - 2013.10.07 17:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
lol, both valid points, but for the cost of a JF compared to the cost of a Carrier, they can afford to put the military grade jump drive in the JF :), they might even end up making the JF cheaper, lol |
Atlantis Fuanan
Uncharted Skies Cerberus Unleashed
29
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Posted - 2013.10.07 17:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because logistics are already easy enough? Shorten down the JF Range I say. |
Lord Tellafus
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
0
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Posted - 2013.10.07 17:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Because carriers are warships, and JFs are not ... so carriers get the more dangerous/cutting edge tech, and JFs get the slightly less good "commercial" variant.
Same as a GPS ... military grade ones are accurate to a few meters ... but commercial ones are usually a few tens of meters.
First about GPS you get what you pay for, a GPS who professional surveyor use have a accurate in 1-3 cm, but its cost a large fortune.
So if you are ready to pay up it should exist a T3 JF who have military jump engines.... but CCP can always say military jump drives are still a military secret and off limits to player as concords death rays..... |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1645
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Posted - 2013.10.07 19:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lord Tellafus wrote:Velicitia wrote:Because carriers are warships, and JFs are not ... so carriers get the more dangerous/cutting edge tech, and JFs get the slightly less good "commercial" variant.
Same as a GPS ... military grade ones are accurate to a few meters ... but commercial ones are usually a few tens of meters. First about GPS you get what you pay for, a GPS who professional surveyor use have a accurate in 1-3 cm, but its cost a large fortune. So if you are ready to pay up it should exist a T3 JF who have military jump engines.... but CCP can always say military jump drives are still a military secret and off limits to player as concords death rays.....
Linkage to this "accurate to 3cm GPS receiver"? One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1194
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Posted - 2013.10.07 19:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Balance > "realism". |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
807
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Posted - 2013.10.07 20:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree that the only T2 capital ship in the game, logically should have the longest jump range.
However, as one who builds jump freighters, the jump drive component that is used is the same tech 1 jump drive that is used in other capital ships. So considering that this industrial ship, even though it is a T2, uses a T1 jump drive component, and does not have the capacitor, CPU, or powergrid, that the military/combat capitals have. This could result in the jump drive operating at lower efficiency, due to lower ship resources to draw from compared to combat capitals, resulting in a shorter jump range. Just be glad this inefficiency does not also cause significant increase in fuel consumption.
Who says balance can not also be realistic. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
807
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Posted - 2013.10.07 20:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Because carriers are warships, and JFs are not ... so carriers get the more dangerous/cutting edge tech, and JFs get the slightly less good "commercial" variant.
Same as a GPS ... military grade ones are accurate to a few meters ... but commercial ones are usually a few tens of meters. Except that you are wrong, Jump Freighters do not use a different commercial grade jump drive, they use the exact same jump drive component as the other capital ships. However it may be the other systems on the combat/military ships that allow it to run at a higher efficiency. |
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Freya Shimane
Cut Throats And Wise Guys
3
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Posted - 2013.10.07 20:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
You have an interesting point. I wanted to say it had to be because a JF is significantly more massive than a carrier, but the stats showed the opposite to be true. A Thanatos "weighs" 232 million kilograms more than an Anshar, and can jump considerably farther.
I don't feel like the limited jump range is lore or stat based, but is rather a mechanic to make null sec logistics more difficult and time consuming. The hull is prohibitively expensive, but balanced; if you use your own cyno pilots, you are unlikely to ever lose a JF. Your route may be interrupted by tackle sitting at an undock, or the cynojammer in the winter patch, but you are never forced to undock. Station tank is best tank, after all.
The carrier's jump range is unique to it's class and is a defining characteristic of a combat logistics capital ship. Jump Freighters actually have the second highest base jump range (tied with Dreadnoughts), so I think we were lucky to even get that much. Titans, Super Carriers, and Black Ops, all have shorter ranges. |
Enteron Anabente
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.10.07 21:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Lord Tellafus wrote:Velicitia wrote:Because carriers are warships, and JFs are not ... so carriers get the more dangerous/cutting edge tech, and JFs get the slightly less good "commercial" variant.
Same as a GPS ... military grade ones are accurate to a few meters ... but commercial ones are usually a few tens of meters. First about GPS you get what you pay for, a GPS who professional surveyor use have a accurate in 1-3 cm, but its cost a large fortune. So if you are ready to pay up it should exist a T3 JF who have military jump engines.... but CCP can always say military jump drives are still a military secret and off limits to player as concords death rays..... Linkage to this "accurate to 3cm GPS receiver"?
Here's one for nine thousand dollars that advertises "centimeter accuracy," though I don't see exact specifications.
High-accuracy GPS is not all that uncommon--a friend of mine works for a start-up that uses it (plus electrical fields and magnets) to map groundwater flow, e.g. to find where water is leaking out of a reservoir. It is a tad out of the price range of your average hobbyist.
It used to be that consumer GPS accuracy was artifically limited by regulations, but those restrictions have since been lifted in the US. |
Karma Codolle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.10.07 21:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
I dont know why everyone is saying jump freighters shouldn't get a military grade jump drive. They are used just as often as carriers in moving military goods to staging systems to prepare and to keep the war machine running.
It'd be in the militarys best interest to share their jump tech with the freighter class
And seeing as the ships have about equal mass, and the JF cost's considerably more than a carrier with 0 offensive capabilities. It really does make 0 sense that a JF can't jump at least as far as a carrier if not farther actually. considering it loses over half it's cargo space from its t1 version to account for the jump drive. |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1645
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Posted - 2013.10.07 21:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Enteron Anabente wrote:Here's one for nine thousand dollars that advertises "centimeter accuracy," though I don't see exact specifications. High-accuracy GPS is not all that uncommon--a friend of mine works for a start-up that uses it (plus electrical fields and magnets) to map groundwater flow, e.g. to find where water is leaking out of a reservoir. It is a tad out of the price range of your average hobbyist. It used to be that consumer GPS accuracy was artifically limited by regulations, but those restrictions have since been lifted in the US.
nice ... found the tech specs in the linked PDF (not sure this'll actually link tho ... yay eve forums).
Real-time accuracy is listed at 3-5 meters, with post-processing able to get that down to 5cm (with several footnotes that I didn't bother to read).
That said, my point (that people seem to be missing ... so guess it wasn't that clear) is that a military craft has a better drive for nothing more than the fact that it's military. I suppose a better RL analogy would be jet engines -- where (AFAIK) they're the same engines on commercial airliners and military fighters ... but as there are regulations that commercial airlines have to follow (such as noise levels, pollution, etc), the engines end up performing worse than the un-regulated ones in a fighter jet.
HOWEVER -- that's a lolrp reasoning, and at the end of the day "Game Balance" (as pointed out by Freya and others) trumps anything else. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
333
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Posted - 2013.10.07 22:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jump freighters should get +10 warp strength and a nullifier while we're at it.
Those things are so big, Shirley you can hardwire some stabs and a t3 subsystem to it. Especially the Nomad, you should just be able to duct tape the necessary modules to the outside of the hull. |
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc. The Volition Cult
16
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Posted - 2013.10.07 23:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jordan Jansen wrote:Why then can a carrier jump further?
So wait, one ship has OP jump range, so your idea of a fix is to make another ship jump even farther? And add more cargo space to a ship which already has bunches? Come on...
The solution here is to nerf carrier jump range, which is something being discussed in CSM summits. |
Jordan Jansen
0
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Posted - 2013.10.08 05:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Jump freighters should get +10 warp strength and a nullifier while we're at it.
Those things are so big, Shirley you can hardwire some stabs and a t3 subsystem to it. Especially the Nomad, you should just be able to duct tape the necessary modules to the outside of the hull.
rofl, let's go overboard while we're at it
Matthias Thullmann wrote:Jordan Jansen wrote:Why then can a carrier jump further? So wait, one ship has OP jump range, so your idea of a fix is to make another ship jump even farther? And add more cargo space to a ship which already has bunches? Come on... The solution here is to nerf carrier jump range, which is something being discussed in CSM summits.
No man, don't do that, I'm trying to get better jump range for the JF here, not worse for another class, lol
But yes, if the Carrier jumps about the same range as a JF I'll have nothing to complain about. The JF will still have all that Capacitor with nothing to use it except the Jump and Warp drives, should still jump further than the other classes that can do "other" stuff. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4238
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Posted - 2013.10.08 06:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Enteron Anabente wrote:Here's one for nine thousand dollars that advertises "centimeter accuracy," though I don't see exact specifications. High-accuracy GPS is not all that uncommon--a friend of mine works for a start-up that uses it (plus electrical fields and magnets) to map groundwater flow, e.g. to find where water is leaking out of a reservoir. It is a tad out of the price range of your average hobbyist. It used to be that consumer GPS accuracy was artifically limited by regulations, but those restrictions have since been lifted in the US.
The problem with that is that there is pretty significant variation caused by the shifting volume of the atmosphere (which affects the time it takes for the clock signals to arrive at your device, and affects the signals from each satellite differently, inducing errors). If you leave a high end GPS in one spot (and turn off any inertial features it may have), it will record a significant amount of "movement" over the course of a day (which isn't that hard to correct for), as well as recording more random "movement" actually caused by changes in the atmosphere due to changes in the solar wind.
All in all, you're talking about ~+/-5m deviation caused by things that a solo GPS reciever, no matter how good it is at reading the signals, can't really fix. That can certainly be mitigated by comparisons made with maps and fixed ground stations, but that requires access to... well, highly accurate maps and fixed ground stations in radio range.
It actually turns into an interesting challenge if you're doing something where you really, really need to know exactly where your site is. Luckily, the people that I know of that need that kind of precision and accuracy are astronomers, who are also the best equipped to deal with it. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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