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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Egravant Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2013.10.08 16:56:00 -
[151] - Quote
Oh yes didn t see the powergrid needed.They are for BS size .Hehe. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
156
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
Phoon and Navy Raven will probably be the best platforms for these babies. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
106
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:16:00 -
[153] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Phoon and Navy Raven will probably be the best platforms for these babies.
Neither of those ship bonuses apply to RHMLs unfortunately.
The best will be SNI and TFI. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
106
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:So was on sisi today, decided to put some RHMLs on my Golem to test them only did 364DPS, wow that was crap. So don't worry guys, they aren't OP at all. On my RS I got less then 200DPS. Not sure if the BS bonuses don't work with the RHMLs like they are suppose to or if they are just really that weak. I sure hope CCP works on them and fixes them because they are really worthless right now.
I also took my Golem against rats, with 2 TPs the Golem bonuses the RHMLs it took 6 to 7 shots to take out a frigate and 3 to 4 to take out a cruiser, REALLY?!
Golem doesn't get any bonuses.
SNI should get ~625DPS with 3x BCU when using only RHMLs
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Jureth22
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
137
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:37:00 -
[155] - Quote
questionable dps (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)
the range is,well how shall i put this? NO (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)
other than that it would be nice to have them. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
277
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:50:00 -
[156] - Quote
Jureth22 wrote:questionable dps (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)
the range is,well how shall i put this? NO (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)
other than that it would be nice to have them.
Their dps is quite identical to cruises though. Just application within their 50ish km range is better, and they don't project beyond. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
280
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Posted - 2013.10.08 18:45:00 -
[157] - Quote
The Golem has that slow sucking sound, regardless of whether or not they modify the stats for it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
251
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Posted - 2013.10.09 01:11:00 -
[158] - Quote
DPS prolly needs to be brought down SIGNIFICANTLY. - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
66
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Posted - 2013.10.09 02:15:00 -
[159] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:Do the damage applications change significantly based on skills only? No, not at all. I've looked briefly at the numbers, and this is not strictly true, primarily because DRF differs for different missiles.
Assume we are bound by the third term. The % increase in damage application for the various missiles at GMP/TNP V is as follows: - Heavy Prec: +50% (DRF 2.7) - Heavy: +60% (DRF 3.2) - Cruise Prec: +66% (DRF 3.5) - Heavy Fury: +84% (DRF 4.5) - Cruise: +84% (DRF 4.5) - Cruise Fury: +88% (DRF 4.7) - Torp: +92% (DRF 5) - Torp Javelin: +95% (DRF 5.2) - Torp Rage: +95% (DRF 5.2)
The worse the DRF, the bigger effect of improved skills.
Comparing the biggest improvement (T2 torp) with the smallest (precision heavy), we see that all V improves relative damage application by about 30%. So this is not "no change at all". Whether it makes a practical difference is another matter (eg a Rage Torp vs a noob in a Merlin (39 sig, speed 310) increases from 1% to 2% potential damage, while the Precision Heavy improves from 26% to 39%). Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Darth Cipherous
Unchained Industrial Collective Defiance Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2013.10.09 02:37:00 -
[160] - Quote
I think it would be beneficial to see how things stack up with missile support skills. Theoretically they improve the damage application of larger weapons more than smaller ones, right? For example, Guided Missile Precision should improve the damage of torps fired largish hulls more than it would for Heavy Missiles.
Downloading eft to check myself.
edit: already covered it seems |
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Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
107
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Posted - 2013.10.09 04:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Jayne Fillon wrote:Do the damage applications change significantly based on skills only? No, not at all. I've looked briefly at the numbers, and this is not strictly true, primarily because DRF differs for different missiles. Assume we are bound by the third term. The % increase in damage application for the various missiles at GMP/TNP V is as follows: - Heavy Prec: +50% (DRF 2.7) - Heavy: +60% (DRF 3.2) - Cruise Prec: +66% (DRF 3.5) - Heavy Fury: +84% (DRF 4.5) - Cruise: +84% (DRF 4.5) - Cruise Fury: +88% (DRF 4.7) - Torp: +92% (DRF 5) - Torp Javelin: +95% (DRF 5.2) - Torp Rage: +95% (DRF 5.2) The worse the DRF, the bigger effect of improved skills. Comparing the biggest improvement (T2 torp) with the smallest (precision heavy), we see that all V improves relative damage application by about 30%. So this is not "no change at all". Whether it makes a practical difference is another matter (eg a Rage Torp vs a noob in a Merlin (39 sig, speed 310) increases from 1% to 2% potential damage, while the Precision Heavy improves from 26% to 39%).
Well damn, I forgot about the effect of the different DRF values. Serves me right for forgetting about the exponential.
Now I'm not going to be satisfied until I redo all my graphs with skills applied. Although from what you're saying in the explanation of percentage increase affecting applied damage is that it will benefit RHML more than torpedoes? That isn't something I would have expected at all.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
66
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Posted - 2013.10.09 04:33:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:Now I'm not going to be satisfied until I redo all my graphs with skills applied. Although from what you're saying in the explanation of percentage increase affecting applied damage is that it will benefit RHML more than torpedoes? That isn't something I would have expected at all. No, T2 torps get the most percentage benefit, and precision heavies the least. Heavy precision damage improves by x1.5 from 0-0 to V-V, while T2 torps improve by x1.95.
Debir Achen wrote:The worse the DRF, the bigger effect of improved skills. The confusion might be the percentages in the final paragraph: they are % application of nominal damage. Increasing from 1% to 2% nominal damage is a x2 increase (x1.95 before rounding), while increasing from 26% to 39% nominal is x1.5 increase. So the torps increase more as a ratio. In practice, 2% of torp nominal damage will be a lot smaller than even 26% of precision HM nominal damage. The extreme cases will continue to favour precision HML, but the balance in the middle might shift slightly. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Edwin McAlister
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 06:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
real question to ask,
why is this system being added?
are missile based battleships in need of a role change?
are missile based battleships so rare or non-used in fleet actions for a reason?
will this system make missile battleships a more viable and balanced option in fleets both small and large? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
580
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 06:15:00 -
[164] - Quote
Can we have twin undersized guns (ie, dual 150mm rails, dual 250mm rails) that actually behave like undersized guns as far as tracking and sig radius then?
Yes, we have fitting options on turret boats, but its over rated.
1400mm vs 1200mm arty makes very little difference when engaging smaller targets, its basically a PG thing, that you downgrade DPS and alpha if you don't have the fitting.
RHMLs are not simply going to be (as RLMLs) slightly lower DPS launchers with easier fitting than cruise. |
Edwin McAlister
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 06:59:00 -
[165] - Quote
this might be cause to start a new thread in the features and ideas discussion
while I love the idea of the new missile system, and being able to actively engage smaller targets in my navy scorpion
it is true the guns do not offer the same versatility
BASE unmodified stats
Dual 150mm Railgun II Trackingspeed/accuracy 0.0375 rad/sec Activation cost 3.5 GJ Rate of fire 3.31 Damage mod 2.28x Optimal range 14.40 km Signature resolution 125m
150mm railgun II Trackingspeed/accuracy 0.0735 rad/sec Activation cost 2.338 GJ Rate of Fire 4.25 Damage mod 3.63 Optimal range 14.40 km Signature Resolution 40 m
activation cost makes sense, fireing 2 guns vs 1 tracking speed makes sense, it is a bigger heavier turret with two guns instead of one rate of fire should be half that of the single barrel version (thus shooting twice as fast) optimal range is equal
signature radius and optimal range could be explained various ways... with the dual gun mount the rounds could be spread out making it more of an area effect thus justifying the larger signature radius on the dual mount, also the damage mod possibly takes into account damage from small ammo vs damage from large ammo.... make dual mount use small ammo, but have same damage mod as the single barrel version with twice the rate of fire
dual 150mm mount should be using small ammo and chewing it up twice as fast
while all these changes might be interesting, we are talking about an extreme fundamental change to the game that would require extensive follow on reballanceing |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
580
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 08:00:00 -
[166] - Quote
The way the tracking formula works, doubling the sig res of a turret is like halving the tracking.
Its as if the dual 150mm rail has a sig res of 40, and a tracking speed of 0.012
Ie its tracking is 0.0735/0.012 = 6.125 x *worse* than the single mount.
I've already made a thread on this before. 2x ROF would be way too much.
Currently a medium turret does 1.3333x the DPS of a small (though the recent long range medium turret change modified this, are your stats up to date?), and a large does 1.333x the DPS of a medium.
A Heavy Pulse laser does 3/4s the DPS of a dual heavy pulse laser, for example.
If we gave it double the ROF, it would become the highest DPS large laser turret.
Instead, I say we follow the example of the RLMLs, and give them a -20% cycle time (say the firing of one interferes with the other or something if it bothers you that much), for 25% more DPS, which is less than the 33% additional DPS they currently have
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Edwin McAlister
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
8
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Posted - 2013.10.09 08:53:00 -
[167] - Quote
aye, stats are from in game at the time of the post, they are most current
and yea, I agree with you, that can be issues with changing turrets,
however, what would the dmg on the duel 150mm turret be if it were using SMALL ammo vs medium??
BASE STATES (im not gonna get crazy with all the skill calculations, just takeing states unmodified straight from game)
Javelin S ken 6, therm 8,
Javelin M ken 12, therm 16,
base unmodified stats
dual 150 mm railgun II w/ javelin M = 27.36 ken, 36.48 therm ( 63.84 / 3.31s = 19.28 dps)
if it used small ammo with double rate of fire, would be 13.68 ken, 18.24 therm ( 31.92 / 1.655s = 11.02 dps)
curious, is there a cap on exactly how fast something can shoot in game?
anyway... this is off topic... the real discussion is about rapid heavy missle launchers
I am honestly looking forward to them, I find it boreing that my battleship is only broken out for very very rare occasions and that 99% of the time im flying a cruiser or battlecruiser, I can fly a lot of ships, but have always liked the look of the caldari ships, and I like the scorpion and raven graphics quite a bit
I feel that this system will bring the both types of ravens, and the navy scorp back into a useful combat role of engageing smaller enemy ships, |
Wu Phat
Ugandan Hit Squad DARKNESS.
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 12:43:00 -
[168] - Quote
Umm Why Don't the RHML don't benefit from the Secondary Bonus on the Raven,Typhoon & there Navy Issue Counterparts ? The Explosion Velocity (Phoon) and Pure Missile Velocity (Raven) Would Just Make them even More Attractive to use and help Kill Smaller Medium Sized, Signature tanked Hulls. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
287
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:16:00 -
[169] - Quote
Wu Phat wrote:Umm Why Don't the RHML don't benefit from the Secondary Bonus on the Raven,Typhoon & there Navy Issue Counterparts ? The Explosion Velocity (Phoon) and Pure Missile Velocity (Raven) Would Just Make them even More Attractive to use and help Kill Smaller Medium Sized, Signature tanked Hulls. Probably because it would make them even more attractive. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:39:00 -
[170] - Quote
Wu Phat wrote:Umm Why Don't the RHML don't benefit from the Secondary Bonus on the Raven,Typhoon & there Navy Issue Counterparts ? The Explosion Velocity (Phoon) and Pure Missile Velocity (Raven) Would Just Make them even More Attractive to use and help Kill Smaller Medium Sized, Signature tanked Hulls.
Because the typhoon and to lesse degree the raven woudl simply extinguish cruiser sized hulls from PVP.
The real problem is.. thes emodules makje the typhoon bonus USELES!
because its always better to not use the obnus whiel fielding these modules than use the bonus while fielding cruise missiles and torps. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 15:47:00 -
[171] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Umm Why Don't the RHML don't benefit from the Secondary Bonus on the Raven,Typhoon & there Navy Issue Counterparts ? The Explosion Velocity (Phoon) and Pure Missile Velocity (Raven) Would Just Make them even More Attractive to use and help Kill Smaller Medium Sized, Signature tanked Hulls. because its always better to not use the obnus whiel fielding these modules than use the bonus while fielding cruise missiles and torps.
You're lying, right? |
Edwin McAlister
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:10:00 -
[172] - Quote
would the cost factor of using battleships keep them in check if I did the math correctly, I can manufacture about 400 frigates for the minerals it would take me to manufacture 1 raven |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:23:00 -
[173] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Umm Why Don't the RHML don't benefit from the Secondary Bonus on the Raven,Typhoon & there Navy Issue Counterparts ? The Explosion Velocity (Phoon) and Pure Missile Velocity (Raven) Would Just Make them even More Attractive to use and help Kill Smaller Medium Sized, Signature tanked Hulls. because its always better to not use the obnus whiel fielding these modules than use the bonus while fielding cruise missiles and torps. You're lying, right?
Ok not ALWAYS, bot on ANY situation where you do not need to hit over 40 km. At medium ranges rapid heavies apply more DPS over non battleship targets than Cruises and torpedoes on basically any combination of speed and signature. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
413
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Posted - 2013.10.09 17:22:00 -
[174] - Quote
What happens to the numbers when a TP enters the equation? Is a single painter enough to get target sig>HML exp radius thus changing the picture further? Bearing in mind cruise and painters are pretty much always used in tandem |
Edwin McAlister
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
10
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Posted - 2013.10.09 19:47:00 -
[175] - Quote
the numbers will go up, but target painters have always been available for all class of missiles, however, I have only ever observed them used with cruise and torp set up (does not mean that they have not been used with heavy or heavy assault set ups, and there are a few fits in battleclinic with TPs on smaller class ships) and I belive that all missle combat has been balanced with the possible use of target painters factored in
I feel confident that the factor that will need to be balanced here will be the rate of fire on the system and tweeked one way or another. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
413
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Posted - 2013.10.09 20:07:00 -
[176] - Quote
Yes, but the point is if sig radius is already >= to explosion radius, a painter does nothing (unless I forgot something, correct me if I'm forgetting something)
It will be far harder to create that sitation for a cruise compared to a heavy.
What I'm getting at is I'm not sure there's a sufficient gap between these and precision cruises considering what you give up using the smaller missiles. I may be wrong, but the analysis so far feels incomplete without considering a full fit.
Unless there are more changes in the pipe for heavies. |
Komodo Askold
Legion of Darkwind
42
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Posted - 2013.10.09 20:53:00 -
[177] - Quote
Quite interesting.
But yes; Rapid Cruise Missile Launchers? =3 |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
117
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:41:00 -
[178] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Yes, but the point is if sig radius is already >= to explosion radius, a painter does nothing (unless I forgot something, correct me if I'm forgetting something)
It will be far harder to create that sitation for a cruise compared to a heavy.
What I'm getting at is I'm not sure there's a sufficient gap between these and precision cruises considering what you give up using the smaller missiles. I may be wrong, but the analysis so far feels incomplete without considering a full fit.
Unless there are more changes in the pipe for heavies.
Check out this graph
As you can see, there are many instances where a signature radius larger that explosion radius doesn't apply full damage, and this is exacerbated the faster your target is travelling. For example, a ship moving at 1km/s would have to have a signature radius of >1000m to have full damage applied.
So a target painter will almost always increase your applied damage in situations where you can't web a target down.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
574
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Posted - 2013.10.10 00:09:00 -
[179] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:What happens to the numbers when a TP enters the equation? Is a single painter enough to get target sig>HML exp radius thus changing the picture further? Bearing in mind cruise and painters are pretty much always used in tandem
Pretrty much always? aaa no. It is stil the most rare form of ewar.
A target painter is enough to balance on BC level betwee cruises and rapid heavies. But most moving cruisers still wil take fare mroe damage from rapids than cruises "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
16
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Posted - 2013.10.10 00:59:00 -
[180] - Quote
I dont understand a few things here .Why would u make raven / typhoon track better for frigates / cruisers Second you are introducing new launchers rather then fixing older ones .Heavy missiles got nerfed on dmg and range ,ok i get it range was omfgwtf ..but the dmg didnt have to get nerfed . In the forum post u said that u wanted to make hams more usable and hm were "getting in the way" ..why didnt u boost the ham's insteed of nerfing heavy missiles . Anyway to the problem in hand ..this creates a gap and puts missiles bs 1 step up and let me tell u why . With a turret bs to apply dps u got to web ..since web is -60% u can`t hit a frigate / destroyer / barelly hit hac / cruiser (if he gets close under guns) but now with a missile bs u will hit and take down everything that is small ..i mean there isnt that diference between ships . U fly a frigate because is small / agyle takes less dmg from bigger ships ..and to see a raven pwning that with ease kinda makes it bad . What u guys should do here is unerf the heavy missiles ..boost hams ..make torpedo's usable again in pvp / pve boost the ROF of rapid launchers because having frigates that shoot at 6-7 seconds isnt cool and make more ships (frigates/destroyers) to use more rapid launchers and actually have the PG / CPU to fit them a little buff and propulsion mode ..oh also ..did i mention about the FOF missiles + destroyer missiles ? They should of been removed from game long time ago ..NO ONE and i mean NO ONE uses defender missiles ..or F.O.F . My sugestion is just leave the raven as it is ..don`t look to add new stuff to the game that is usless ..just fix the broken stuff and it should be ok |
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