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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:01:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
I just wonder how CCP regards this disclaimer which is posted in many of the auctions:
Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK, items and skills and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. THE PHYSICAL ACCOUNT REMAINS PROPERTY OF CCP GAMES.
Those disclaimers have no legal binding. It's just a vain attempt to protect themselves when they know that they are doing something wrong.
WTB: Gall/Amarr faction BS (Hint: no such thing) Visit the MC |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:10:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 26/01/2006 12:35:28 Wyrm, and to be entirely honest I view that phrase as extremely dangerous to the rest of the IP claims made in the EULA, since similar claims (that you have no interest in time invested) have been struck down before in other industries. That Eve is a game has no bearing on this.
And once you can prove that some of the claims are unduly broad, that often leads to others being set aside.
Most other MMO's do not have that clause for precisely that reason.
That's exactly the issue yes.
Most EULA's, including Eve's, have holes the size of manhattan in them. Some of those are based on the EULA's being unneccesarily restrictive, which in some cases is reason for a court to strike their validity.
The reason CCP doesn't take legal action against isk farmers is exactly because of those holes. If their EULA or essential parts of it that deal with things like copyrights, right of access and termination of access, right of transfering your access to another person etc, get overturned, CCP is in for a great deal of trouble.
That's partly why Ebay isn't asked to stop the Eve sales. It's partly why IGE isn't presecuted by game companies. And it's also why CCP can't go and ban someone unless they are absolutely sure of being in the right.
The whole situation with regard to RMT in MMO's in a big grey area, in which game designers have little to go on, but are afraid to force a decision so they have clear guidelines as long as the issue is manageable.
But that's most definately off topic here right ?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:12:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/01/2006 13:14:53
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
I just wonder how CCP regards this disclaimer which is posted in many of the auctions:
Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK, items and skills and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. THE PHYSICAL ACCOUNT REMAINS PROPERTY OF CCP GAMES.
Those disclaimers have no legal binding. It's just a vain attempt to protect themselves when they know that they are doing something wrong.
That's actually wrong.
They are largely untested when it comes to their usage in this context. I think chances are testing their validity would end in tears for both game designers and farmers, so the status quo of unclarity and limited attempts to remove RMT from MMO's is largely maintained at the moment.
At the very least the part where you declare that you are in no way related to CCP has a certain validity. Ebay's TOS does not allow misrepresentation, if CCP would big on these auctions, they'd get sued.
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Jowen Datloran
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:29:00 -
[124]
I forgot to add that I disgust any kind of cheating, no matter if the culprit is a stranger or my brother.
I support the actions the GM team is taking.
---------------- Main as main can be |
Buz Lightyear
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:49:00 -
[125]
The same thing should actually apply for people paying isk for game time cards. It all amounts to the same. Some people pay real money (for game time cards) to get isk in game. Double morale not to do anything about this issue.
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Kay Han
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:57:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Kay Han on 26/01/2006 14:02:08
Originally by: Buz Lightyear The same thing should actually apply for people paying isk for game time cards. It all amounts to the same. Some people pay real money (for game time cards) to get isk in game. Double morale not to do anything about this issue.
Then you have to "ban"
- Char for isk sales - TS server for isk Sales - Signature for isk Sales - Homepage for isk Sales (dunno if they exist, but i remember that someone offered this service a while back) - etc
Since it all costs somekind of RL currency.
The baddest thing i¦ve heard, back in 2004/2005, was someone who did get over 7k Ç with isk sales on Ebay.
Thats where i get angry with those peeps.
When i browse through Ebay, and i¦m seraching for "eve online" i¦m getting sick and can¦t believe, that it¦s that hard to get this people banned from ebay... ___________________________________________ A wise man said once: 'Violence is the escape of the mentaly poor guys.'
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.26 13:59:00 -
[127]
...They don't get banned from Ebay in any case.
And don't forget other services sold for ISK like killboards, information websites and so on.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
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Cinnander
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Posted - 2006.01.26 14:33:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Cinnander on 26/01/2006 14:35:40 Just to get another idea out there encouraging the players to take a stance against such activity; perhaps the possibility of rewards of some kind to players who lead the investigative team to a successful ban? Like the police do.
I don't mean ingame-item rewards, so no ISK, no items, and nothing too big, but perhaps a free day or two of game time if you contribute to busting an eBay operation, for example? Maybe a big "Miss Eve 2005.01.26" sash to wear? Or a bunch of those really good adult holoreels? :D
Or at least an acknowledgement email, "Thank you Cinnander for your help, we investigated and found a ring of 7 accounts who had been used as ..." etc, nice to know you helped :)
You get the idea ;) |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.26 14:37:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Cinnander Edited by: Cinnander on 26/01/2006 14:35:40 Just to get another idea out there encouraging the players to take a stance against such activity; perhaps the possibility of rewards of some kind to players who lead the investigative team to a successful ban? Like the police do.
I don't mean ingame-item rewards, so no ISK, no items, and nothing too big, but perhaps a free day or two of game time if you contribute to busting an eBay operation, for example? Maybe a big "Miss Eve 2005.01.26" sash to wear? Or a bunch of those really good adult holoreels? :D
Or at least an acknowledgement email, "Thank you Cinnander for your help, we investigated and found a ring of 7 accounts who had been used as ..." etc, nice to know you helped :)
You get the idea ;)
They cant. Macro hunters may do alot of good, they also cause quite alot of hurt. If CCP were to officially endorse these activities and actually rewards them, there'd be a ****storm over reykjavik soon.
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2006.01.26 14:54:00 -
[130]
Having looked at a few autions on eBay, I decided to send the sellers a link to this thread, and to the dev blog. Two of the responses claimed ignorance, claiming they did not know it was in breach of the EULA. The third? Well, here is their response:
Quote:
Hi,
As the listing indicates, it is the time that I spend playing the game that people are paying for... There is no agreement as far as I'm aware that says I cannot sell my time to those who are willing to pay for it. My listings are for a service.
Regards
The same owner of one of your beloved "do not bid for this if you are an employee of CCP, you are only paying for the time I spent getting these items." yada.
23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC |
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Biggess Boobess
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Posted - 2006.01.26 15:24:00 -
[131]
Hasn't anyone actually noticed the vast decrease in ebay sales from a certain country. Actually there are half the pages of isk sales on ebay as there where a month ago.
It's allways been for sale on ebay since the game began. If people are silly enough to spend real life cash on isk then more fool them. It seems the anti macro miners have done a good service bringing down the amount of people who play the game for profit.
It is the people who mine all the nooby area's and macro mine all the ice on market that ruin game for lots of professions.
CCP gave them a helping hand with ice not running out etc.
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LDMcFear
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Posted - 2006.01.26 15:24:00 -
[132]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 Having looked at a few autions on eBay, I decided to send the sellers a link to this thread, and to the dev blog. Two of the responses claimed ignorance, claiming they did not know it was in breach of the EULA. The third? Well, here is their response:
Quote:
Hi,
As the listing indicates, it is the time that I spend playing the game that people are paying for... There is no agreement as far as I'm aware that says I cannot sell my time to those who are willing to pay for it. My listings are for a service.
Regards
The same owner of one of your beloved "do not bid for this if you are an employee of CCP, you are only paying for the time I spent getting these items." yada.
The idea that you did this is truly awesome The response you got from the chucklehead above makes me laugh. We should all e-mail these guys with links to this thread.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.01.26 15:42:00 -
[133]
ZOMG!
Cheating banned?
What next?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Judas Jones
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Posted - 2006.01.26 17:09:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Avon
ZOMG!
Cheating banned?
What next?
IMO, all pie-rats should be perma-banned for aggresive behaviour as well as miners for there insistant degredation of Eve's natural beauty.
-----------------------------------------------
Expect Typo's |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.01.26 17:10:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Judas Jones
IMO, all pie-rats should be perma-banned for aggresive behaviour as well as miners for there insistant degredation of Eve's natural beauty.
Sounds reasonable.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2006.01.26 18:09:00 -
[136]
To be honest, I think you guys are waxing way over the top on IP philosophy. The idea that a court would uphold a player's money dispute with a game publisher of a non-gambling game site is outrageous. This is a GAME. If monopoly was played online, and you bought your hotels on Park Place via RMT, then got banned, then you have no recourse.
The purpose of the Product is not to make you RL money. It is to indulge into a fantasy world where everything is fake...including your rights to any IP property created by the game developer.
But please, continue on with meaningless dribble.
*puts on flame suit*
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LDMcFear
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Posted - 2006.01.26 18:42:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Karash Amerius To be honest, I think you guys are waxing way over the top on IP philosophy. The idea that a court would uphold a player's money dispute with a game publisher of a non-gambling game site is outrageous. This is a GAME. If monopoly was played online, and you bought your hotels on Park Place via RMT, then got banned, then you have no recourse.
The purpose of the Product is not to make you RL money. It is to indulge into a fantasy world where everything is fake...including your rights to any IP property created by the game developer.
But please, continue on with meaningless dribble.
*puts on flame suit*
/agreed
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Jacob Holland
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Posted - 2006.01.26 18:59:00 -
[138]
Regarding the taxability of virtual items: As has been stated, this could not apply solely to online games, it must apply to all virtual items or none at all - and it is not difficult to see the potential within such a law. If I were to be taxed on my in-game assets then perhaps I should create a character (perhaps within its own game) who has enormous debts, massive negative assets; these counter the assets I have in other games and result in a rebate from the tax man .
However - leaving the off-topic moment behind - I'm pleased to see this, and very glad of what it represents. I would support the "bans since ..." counter idea but regardless, my hat is off to you.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.26 19:09:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Karash Amerius To be honest, I think you guys are waxing way over the top on IP philosophy. The idea that a court would uphold a player's money dispute with a game publisher of a non-gambling game site is outrageous.
People with a lot more experience of developing MMO's than you - and their lawyers - disagree with you.
I'll take their word above yours.
Welcome to the information era.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
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Wee Dave
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Posted - 2006.01.26 19:21:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Karash Amerius To be honest, I think you guys are waxing way over the top on IP philosophy. The idea that a court would uphold a player's money dispute with a game publisher of a non-gambling game site is outrageous. This is a GAME. If monopoly was played online, and you bought your hotels on Park Place via RMT, then got banned, then you have no recourse.
The purpose of the Product is not to make you RL money. It is to indulge into a fantasy world where everything is fake...including your rights to any IP property created by the game developer.
But please, continue on with meaningless dribble.
*puts on flame suit*
This isn't just a theoretical arguments. It has already been suggested by those with authority. In particular, taxing online items has been suggested my people within the IRS itself. And if you get taxed, you must be represented. Hence you must own the items.
Try and remember we aren't arguing this should be the case, merely that it may well become the case. It is possible CCP may one day have to argue their case in court as to why they won't refund customer property.
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Bejni
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Posted - 2006.01.26 19:45:00 -
[141]
Originally by: GM Arkanon
<snip> Another reason may be that we can not spare the manpower to actively hunt down macroers as much as we'd like to. Our first responsibility is answering petitions and email incidents and making sure all is well on Tranquility, not to mention bringing important issues to the attention of CCP, working in tandem with our ISD volunteer force. As you say, time is money and we do not have an endless amount of either, unfortunately. <snip>
One question, why do you need manpower to be able to tell whether someone is macroing or not? As far as I know macro users are those who have hacked the code of the game and rewrote that code to do their bidding. If so, why do you need to do so manually?
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Kaliesin
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Posted - 2006.01.26 20:02:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
I just wonder how CCP regards this disclaimer which is posted in many of the auctions:
Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK, items and skills and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. THE PHYSICAL ACCOUNT REMAINS PROPERTY OF CCP GAMES.
Those disclaimers have no legal binding. It's just a vain attempt to protect themselves when they know that they are doing something wrong.
Well if your not buying the item but paying him for his time, surely that counts as wages for labour, which I believe is taxable, maybe the IRS should be pointed to ebay.com.......
Mooooooooo |
dazedandconfused
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Posted - 2006.01.26 20:18:00 -
[143]
This all sounds good, Arkanon. Not bad for a ugly, smelly minmatar .
/me runs from big red button.
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Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.26 20:58:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Bejni
One question, why do you need manpower to be able to tell whether someone is macroing or not? As far as I know macro users are those who have hacked the code of the game and rewrote that code to do their bidding. If so, why do you need to do so manually?
How would you automatically detect it? Remember, the client is hacked, so you can't ask it to do anything.
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Exquisite
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Posted - 2006.01.26 21:13:00 -
[145]
Someone may want to indicate to eBay that they are assisting in an illegal activity. I'm sure they wouldn't want to be sued by CCP for any profits that they make off of selling what is CCP's property.
We could introduce a court system into EVE mmmm lawyers. Where the alleged offenders are judged and sentenced by their peers. Mind you the Devs are acting as that ... could we have public trials please ... oy the fun. Then the Devs could just post the names of the sellers and purchasers on a forum board offering bounties on their heads yes that may be funner.
Just my 2 legally obtained isk. ExQ
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Virida
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Posted - 2006.01.26 21:28:00 -
[146]
An EBAY representative on 60 minutes explained no game company can stop them, since the law protect ebays rights so long the game company dont sell their own product, who would protect their right to sell.
Gives no sense, but farming and ebaying is quite legal, and its nothing who can stop them, exept withdrawing an contracted online service after its contract, who is the EULA.
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NickWest
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Posted - 2006.01.26 21:53:00 -
[147]
I'm sure this has been said/asked before but I'll say it again. How is buying ISK off of Ebay that different from buying time cards and selling them for ISK?
So I want to buy a CNR, I'm a noob and can't afford 1.4 billion so I want to cheat, I have two options: 1. Go on ebay and buy ISK with RL money: net result 1.4B isk for RL money 2. Buy a time card and sell it for ISK: net result 1.4B isk for RL money
Step 1 will get you perma banned, step 2 is facilitated by CCP. Both have the same net cost to the player, same end result.
Do you guys see the insanity in this?
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.01.27 00:08:00 -
[148]
Originally by: NickWest Edited by: NickWest on 26/01/2006 22:21:21 Edit, was complaining about the hypocrisy of selling GTC and banning for buying ISK. Comments removed.
meh, ^^ agreed
Grats on the bansticks though. Nice to know its being tackled.
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BloodSpoon
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Posted - 2006.01.27 00:11:00 -
[149]
as nice as it is to see a follow up on whats going on behind the scene to handle this......it opens everyone's mouths and complaints about other things ( IE GTC sales, legality of crap).............
m0o?
Offensive content - Laqum even more offensive content removed - Sherkaner This is even MORE offensive content!
The bovine species shal overcome their oppresion |
Tycalos
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Posted - 2006.01.27 00:26:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Tycalos on 27/01/2006 00:26:50 looks like first and hardest punishments goes to those who sell ISK (because they get permanent ban) and not to those who buy's (who get temp ban or less)
Who's cheating those who sell or those who buy? Because those who's selling they just making real money in real life because they saw an opurtunity to make $ and the people who buy'ing r the cheaters because they getting much more advantages than a regular player ...instant cash instant assets in eve and that means CHEAT ... what u want to stop first???
BAN without remorse buyers and the sellers will drop if they will not find any demand for isk. CCP can fill the ebay market with at least 50 fake isk sellers , sell isk and when a fake isk account will have in his database 30-40 buyer accounts ban permanently all of them even they buyed 1mill ISK or 1 bil ISK. (A good thing is the buyers can be catch much easy than the sellers because the buyers will come straight to the ISK police.) Soon rumors will goes between all buyers and they will stop buying beeing afraid to be banned.... NO DEMAND NO OFFER this is the economy rulles
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