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Maximillan Lancaster
Global Trust Cooperative
14
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Posted - 2013.10.10 13:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Do travel times really matter from going to and from a station if the station is just in the same system as the asteroids? Also, how much ISK per hour can you make in a Retriever and a Procurer mining scordite and pyroxeres?
Cheers. |
J'Poll
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
2382
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Posted - 2013.10.10 13:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
It does matter. The time spent in warp and station means you are not mining and thus miss out on cycles in the long run.
How much, well do the math as that is different for each region, how and where you sell and your skills etc. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1667
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Posted - 2013.10.10 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not doing all the math for you ..
but using totally made up numbers ...
Proc = fills in 10 mins, 12000 m3 (base stats) Ret = fills in 20 mins, 27500 m3 (base stats)
RTT time Station to Belt = 2 mins We'll assume that the clock starts when you first fire up your lasers.
In a Procurer, you'll get 5 loads (50 minutes) + 10 mins of travel per hour In a retriever, you'll get a 2.8 loads (56 minutes) + 4 mins of travel time per hour.
At the end of one hour (counting full trips only): 5 trips @ 12000 m3/trip = 60,000 m3 2 trips @ 27,500 m3/trip = 55,000 m3
However, since we get nearly 3 trips per hour in our retreiver ...
second hour (full trips only) 10 trips @ 12000 = 120000 (total, 60k/hour) 5 trips @ 27,500 = 137,500 (2 trips first hour, 3 trips in the second) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Maximillan Lancaster
Global Trust Cooperative
14
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Posted - 2013.10.10 14:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Not doing all the math for you ..
but using totally made up numbers ...
Proc = fills in 10 mins, 12000 m3 (base stats) Ret = fills in 20 mins, 27500 m3 (base stats)
RTT time Station to Belt = 2 mins We'll assume that the clock starts when you first fire up your lasers.
In a Procurer, you'll get 5 loads (50 minutes) + 10 mins of travel per hour In a retriever, you'll get a 2.8 loads (56 minutes) + 4 mins of travel time per hour.
At the end of one hour (counting full trips only): 5 trips @ 12000 m3/trip = 60,000 m3 2 trips @ 27,500 m3/trip = 55,000 m3
However, since we get nearly 3 trips per hour in our retreiver ...
second hour (full trips only) 10 trips @ 12000 = 120000 (total, 60k/hour) 5 trips @ 27,500 = 137,500 (2 trips first hour, 3 trips in the second)
Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P |
J'Poll
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
2382
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Posted - 2013.10.10 14:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tip: NEVER ever tell anybody what you are making/selling. You are more or less giving your competitors an insight on how you maoe money. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
651
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Posted - 2013.10.10 15:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maximillan Lancaster wrote:Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P
Manufacturing profit has nothing to do with what you're mining in. Manufacturing profit is the difference between what you sold the items for and what the raw materials cost (or would have cost if bought)
I hope you have a well-researched BPC and perfect manufacturing skills, because Warrior I are barely even making a profit with that. Without, you'll be selling the drones for less than the minerals cost. |
Tadeshi Ichikaze
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.10.10 17:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Things have changed a lot in mining since I left but what it looks like now to me is ...
You've got several different ships that are designed for different functions.
The Procurer's are tougher. The Retrievers have a larger ore hold. The Covetor's will mine more in a given time but have a smaller ore hold.
Thus, it would seem that you'd use the Procurers in more risky situations, the Retrievers if you're mining solo and the Covetors if you've got a hauler you're teamed up with.
The old path was Mining Frigate > Mining Cruiser > Retriever > Hulk. Once you got into a Hulk - you'd probably not use anything less as for one thing - the Hulk's had the largest carrying capacity as well as the most mining ability.
Now ... it may not be that way, with each ship serving a different function, so that you'd use a different one based on your situation at the moment and might own several of them.
*shrug*
. . .
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J'Poll
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
2384
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 19:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:Maximillan Lancaster wrote:Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P Manufacturing profit has nothing to do with what you're mining in. Manufacturing profit is the difference between what you sold the items for and what the raw materials cost (or would have cost if bought) I hope you have a well-researched BPC and perfect manufacturing skills, because Warrior I are barely even making a profit with that. Without, you'll be selling the drones for less than the minerals cost.
This basically
Profit = Selling price - Production cost.
Production cost = price of the minerals needed for construction + value of the blueprint + cost of renting factory slot
***Home mined minerals are NOT free, as you could have sold them for ISK***
So the faster you mine doesn't mean production cost will go down, it just means you are more efficient. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
J'Poll
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
2384
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 19:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tadeshi Ichikaze wrote:Things have changed a lot in mining since I left but what it looks like now to me is ...
You've got several different ships that are designed for different functions.
The Procurer's/Skiffs are tougher. The Retrievers/Macks have a larger ore hold. The Covetor's/Hulks will mine more in a given time but have a smaller ore hold.
Thus, it would seem that you'd use the Procurers in more risky situations, the Retrievers if you're mining solo and the Covetors if you've got a hauler you're teamed up with.
The old path was Mining Frigate > Mining Cruiser > Retriever > Hulk. Once you got into a Hulk - you'd probably not use anything less as for one thing - the Hulk's had the largest carrying capacity as well as the most mining ability.
Now ... it may not be that way, with each ship serving a different function, so that you'd use a different one based on your situation at the moment and might own several of them.
*shrug*
. . .
TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.
Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly. Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
118
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Posted - 2013.10.10 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.
Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly. Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days. Debatable.
The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple. |
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Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
118
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Posted - 2013.10.10 20:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Maximillan Lancaster wrote:Also, how much ISK per hour can you make in a Retriever and a Procurer mining scordite and pyroxeres? Solo, with max skills, in a Retriever, you can get to ~12 million ISK/hour mining scordite under optimal conditions. Usually a bit less, as conditions are rarely optimal.
In a fleet with full Orca boosts you can add about 50% to your yield, but then you'd have to pay the Orca pilot. |
Tadeshi Ichikaze
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.10.11 01:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Tadeshi Ichikaze wrote:Things have changed a lot in mining since I left but what it looks like now to me is ...
You've got several different ships that are designed for different functions.
The Procurer's/Skiffs are tougher. The Retrievers/Macks have a larger ore hold. The Covetor's/Hulks will mine more in a given time but have a smaller ore hold.
Thus, it would seem that you'd use the Procurers in more risky situations, the Retrievers if you're mining solo and the Covetors if you've got a hauler you're teamed up with.
The old path was Mining Frigate > Mining Cruiser > Retriever > Hulk. Once you got into a Hulk - you'd probably not use anything less as for one thing - the Hulk's had the largest carrying capacity as well as the most mining ability.
Now ... it may not be that way, with each ship serving a different function, so that you'd use a different one based on your situation at the moment and might own several of them.
*shrug*
. . . TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo. Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly. Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days.
I'd pretty much have to side with those who say that the added money you make is going to make up for the production difference between a Retriever and a Procurer.
I've made a pretty good bit of money since I've been back, just mining Veldspar in a quiet .9 system and doing a lot of it semi-AFK, watching TV, reading a book or even playing another game while mining, listening for "The Asteroid has been depleted" and then coming back to target new rocks. I may well eventually hear the hoot of damage horns as my ship is being destroyed but ... I've already made enough to buy several Retrievers. The fit I use is:
High: 2 strip miners Med: 1 Ore scanner II Low: 1 DC II, 2 MLU II's
Hull Modifications: None
Drones: 5 Miner II's
I've got several bookmarks in each belt.
I warp to a book mark, target the nearest Veldspar of whatever type, launch the drones and then turn on the Ore scanner.
The drones are more efficient if they don't have to travel a lot - so I always sick them on a really close rock.
When the Ore Scan comes up - I then sort by distance and may re-target the drones.
Then I sort by the amount of Ore in the rocks and target the ones with the most for the strip miners.
Now - a big factor in this - is that you want the biggest rocks you can find - so that the strip miners don't waste any more cycles than they have to on a rock that's already used up. You can monitor them really closely with the Ore Scanner if you want - and then turn them off part way through their cycle based on your knowledge of how much ore is left in the rock they are mining and how much ore they mine per cycle - but that gets to be a pain in the ass - so I usually don't do that.
My biggest problem - is getting distracted by whatever else I'm doing - and having the ship just sitting there idle.
I've got better strip miners - but not the skills yet to use the crystals - so I'm just selling the raw ore when I get a good price. The reason I chose the system I'm in - is that there were people there paying a good price for Veldspar - and - it was a quiet system. I have hauled some but mostly I just hold my ore if I can't get a good price for it until I do get a good price.
The other problem with a .9 system though - is that you don't get a lot of really big rocks. So sometimes I have to warp around a bit to find some that are worth mining. If I leave a belt alone for a few days then the rocks get bigger and I'll harvest them.
Small rocks make it questionable whether it is really going to be worth getting much better equipment than I've got - at least for semi-AFK mining. I'd just go through the rocks so fast I'd be sitting there idle. They've still got that 3 minute cycle time and a chunk of that last cycle is going to be wasted if you're not sitting there paying attention. What I'm trying to say here .... is that I'm not so sure it would do me a lot of good to invest in more efficient equipment - if the real inefficiency is on the part of the operator ...
*shrug*
Now - what I used to do - was to always have a hauler sitting right next to one or more of my miners - where I was using Covetors and Hulks to mine. But with only one account now ... those days are gone and - given the changes to the nature of the miners with the advent of Ore Holds - I'm no longer sure exactly how it would be best to use ships like the Covetors. I do believe that they are still probably best used with a hauler but can't do that with one account. I also don't know what the best ratio of miners to haulers would be - if you get 4 strip miners with both guys in Retrivers - then you've got built in large capacity ore carry capability and might be better off than with a Covetor or Hulk and a Hauler. Of course, you could also pair up a Hulk or Covetor with a Retriever and use it for hauling ... but I'm not sure how well that would work. Getting back into position could be a problem for the returning Retriever as slow as they are ...
Of course ... in the old days ... I used my mission runners as hauler pilots so having them fly a miner wasn't an option any way ...
*shrug*
. . .
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Ygnigem
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.10.11 05:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thomas Builder wrote:Debatable.
The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.
Since most miners ignore the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule quite blatantly, I would say if it's your first mining barge, make it a Procurer because it's the safe option. You can always switch to a Retriever later. |
Tadeshi Ichikaze
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ygnigem wrote:Thomas Builder wrote:Debatable.
The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple. Since most miners ignore the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule quite blatantly, I would say if it's your first mining barge, make it a Procurer because it's the safe option. You can always switch to a Retriever later.
They're cheaper too.
Here though you're talking about Risk vs. Reward, which is a judgement call each player must make on how they do things.
Selling everything you have to buy a ship and having only a rookie ship to fall back on if you lose it - that is probably more risk than is advisable - though a lot of People (not just miners) do just that and ... you see them in local ... begging for money because their ship got blown up.
I'd not say that starting off with a Procurer was a bad idea though. Just that you don't have to do that. I had my mining frigate fully fitted - and still have not only it but another as well - so that I'd not have been that bad off if I lost the Retriever. I made the money for the Retriever with that mining frigate once ... I could do it again. I didn't have to and now have enough money to buy ... much more expensive ships than Retrievers ...
But having the Procurer in house - also gives you options ... the kind of options you could be exercising with the mining frigate ... about taking your ship into more dangerous areas. I think ... given what I've been hearing ... that this is what was behind the current design of the Procurer and Skiff.
In the old days - you simply bought better ships until you got a Hulk and then that was it. Now - I do believe that the ships are more designed for a purpose - so that you might well own several of them and use a different one based on what it is you are trying to do and where it is you're trying to do it.
(This is what I was trying to say in the post I deleted above but ... I didn't do a good job and didn't have time to fix it so I just cleared it out).
. . . |
Trevor Dalech
CandyMan Cartel
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 02:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thomas Builder wrote:J'Poll wrote:TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.
Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly. Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days. Debatable. The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.
Have you taken into account the time spent buying and fitting a retriever into that 21h calculation? If the nearest trade hub is over 10 jumps away, flying a retriever back from there after a gank can eat a lot of time. |
Tadeshi Ichikaze
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 06:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:Thomas Builder wrote:J'Poll wrote:TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.
Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly. Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days. Debatable. The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple. Have you taken into account the time spent buying and fitting a retriever into that 21h calculation? If the nearest trade hub is over 10 jumps away, flying a retriever back from there after a gank can eat a lot of time.
That only really matters if you're buying one every day ... in which case you'd have bigger problems than the trip to and from the Retriever store.
. . .
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Eli Kzanti
Remanaquie Federation
37
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Posted - 2013.10.12 07:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tadeshi Ichikaze wrote:That only really matters if you're buying one every day ... in which case you'd have bigger problems than the trip to and from the Retriever store.
. . .
I think you're overestimating the cognitive processes of your target audience. Dem minerz be foolz. They'd seriously just keep mining with the same ship in the same system where they keep being ganked.
Like, seriously, I once saw this guy ganked 4 times in a retriever one day, 3 times in a retriever fitted the same way the next day... until he literally ran out of isk and was in a venture again. Then when he could afford it... he got ganked in a retriever fitted the same damn way -.- |
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