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AiMerc
Attero Inc
0
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Posted - 2013.10.13 22:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Look im not here to get flamed, but i feel like a lot fo changes are being made that are having a negative impact on my game experiance and it only feels right for me to complain about it in a setting where people will hopefully lisn and discuss it. I
quit even for a short bit (family issues) and i just recently came back. I fly strictly minmatar, always have. All of my skills are in gunnery, and my collection of ships are fitted to reflect my skills. I have spent lots of time and money training my skills and purchasing ships and fitting them out. Why has ccp decided to nerf minmatar so much. For example, my sleipnir, not a chap ship, and to properly fit is is not cheap either. Why was it deemed neccessary to drop 1 high slot, 2 turret hardpoints, and add a second launcher hardpoint?!? First off, minmatar is not a large missle faction, WE USE GUNS! This ship now does half the dps for me because i have very little missle skills. Same with the Cane, and they've completely ruined the claymore. CCP, you guys cant create a faction designed and geared twords one thing then completely flip a 180 after so many years. i dont know the right words to use, but it's just not cool. if i wanted to use missles i would gop fly caldari, thats how it's always been, why should that change? And if you are going to add missles to minmatar, dont do it to every ship. you can have the claymore, but leave my sleipnir alone. i can understand having a missle variant and a gun variant. but you made a missle boat and a hybrid. there is no pure gun boat in the command class now. i feel like im being punished for busting my rear to get where i am....I'm sure im not the only one that feels like this..... |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1639
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Posted - 2013.10.13 22:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Meh. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Sleipnir was hardly changed. AC damage is down 3.6% and arty damage is up 8%.
Old Sleipnir: 7 turrets * 4/3 from a 25% RoF bonus * 5/4 from a 25% damage bonus = 11.67 effective turrets.
New Sleipnir: 5 turrets * 3/2 from a 50% damage bonus * 3/2 from another 50% damage bonus = 11.25 effective turrets.
Note: that's without adding any launchers at all. If you throw in two launchers on the Sleip, of course, damage goes up.
Edit: the extra damage from arties comes from the flat 10% RoF bonus they got at the same time in 1.1. |
Arrins Uta
Valkyrie Professional Resources I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1
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Posted - 2013.10.13 23:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Every faction has had ship re dues. The fact is the game needs to change to keep people rolling. I think it's great that they changed hard points on a few ships makes people re think fittings so there is no the one universal fit makes people have to adapt. You don't have middle skills train them. I fly Amarr only at the moment but I have middle and rocket skills for other ships that they have. One of my faction interceptors is rockets but if it's smart why rockets they use lasers. That doesn't bother me because it's variation. Think of the added launcher slot as a bonus. Now people have to think harder to find a good counter cit to your ship. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
220
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Posted - 2013.10.13 23:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Meh. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Sleipnir was hardly changed. AC damage is down 3.6% and arty damage is up 8%.
Old Sleipnir: 7 turrets * 4/3 from a 25% RoF bonus * 5/4 from a 25% damage bonus = 11.67 effective turrets.
New Sleipnir: 5 turrets * 3/2 from a 50% damage bonus * 3/2 from another 50% damage bonus = 11.25 effective turrets.
Note: that's without adding any launchers at all. If you throw in two launchers on the Sleip, of course, damage goes up.
Edit: the extra damage from arties comes from the flat 10% RoF bonus they got at the same time in 1.1.
I don't fly a Sleipnir but couldn't you fit neuts instead of launchers in those extra slots? If the PG or CPU isn't there then I guess bad idea....
I was under the impression that CCP was moving in the one damage type direction. Either have it do gun, drone or missile DPS. The fact that they added a second damage platform is interesting. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2371
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Posted - 2013.10.14 00:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
While I don't agree with the Op that ship changes are bad, I highly agree that minmatar are getting shafted big time. It started with the rifter being relegated to junk frig status, then the abomination that is now the cane... and hasnt gotten any better from there. Minmatar now have the worst T2 combat lineup by a pretty wide margin, along with zero viable armour ships outside of the phoon and loki.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1641
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Posted - 2013.10.14 02:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
IIshira wrote:I don't fly a Sleipnir but couldn't you fit neuts instead of launchers in those extra slots? If the PG or CPU isn't there then I guess bad idea....
If you fit ACs you easily have room for neuts. And you could, you know, fit gang links....
Jack Miton wrote:While I don't agree with the Op that ship changes are bad, I highly agree that minmatar are getting shafted big time. It started with the rifter being relegated to junk frig status, then the abomination that is now the cane... and hasnt gotten any better from there. Minmatar now have the worst T2 combat lineup by a pretty wide margin, along with zero viable armour ships outside of the phoon and loki.
To be perfectly fair: I kind of agree with this. The Sleipnir was actually one of the least touched and that's the only reason it's still pretty good. On balance, Minmatar aren't making out well on the balance pass. It's just that the Sleip is actually a poor example to use.
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Dato Koppla
Perkone Caldari State
317
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Posted - 2013.10.14 03:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
That's the sad things about balance, whoever was previously king of the hill often gets shafted massively because while everything gets buffed around it, they usually stay the same or take a light nerf which often ends in said race being the worst for the next couple years. During the balance changes if someone suggested to buff a Minmatar ship (like the rifter during frig balancing), they would likely get laughed out of the thread, however now that the dust has settled it's clear that the Rifter needs a buff (something more than the +50 armor and 1pg that was given during the second round). |
Goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
540
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Posted - 2013.10.14 03:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jack Miton
I wholeheartedly agree; I can almost envision the morning meeting at CCP, Hilmar looking to increase player retention, Fozzie looking to get his hands on the code for a long overdue nerfbat fest, and Rise wanting to do something extravagant in his new job role. The braintrust comes up with the idea to completely ruin (Nerf) the predominant ships in eve and thereby make all the completed training obsolete, only conclusion would be to subscribe for 6 more months to retrain into something capable of protecting what you already earned or lose it all.
Player retention achieved.
Of course this didnGÇÖt happen but for moment is sounded almost believable, especially if you add a hangover and some spiked morning coffee in to the meeting.
Just missing my Tracking Enhancer II :(
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
115
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Posted - 2013.10.14 03:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Stop whining, Minmatar ships are more balanced now than ever. Sure, there are a couple of hulls (in each race, not only in Minmatar) that need another pass, and it will happen.
Quote: For example, my sleipnir, not a chap ship, and to properly fit is is not cheap either. Why was it deemed neccessary to drop 1 high slot, 2 turret hardpoints, and add a second launcher hardpoint?!?
Because all CSs got the same treatment. All now (with the only exception being the Eos drone boat) have 5 primary weapon hardpoints, and a couple free slots for links/cap warfare or secondary weapons. Sleip is actually better now than it was before, you got more place for neuts and waste less ammo...C: |
Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
630
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Posted - 2013.10.14 03:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adapt or die.
Nuff said. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
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Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3588
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Posted - 2013.10.14 05:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
1) all races now have two weapon systems 2) sleip is one of the strongest ships in game Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
Goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 06:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Sleip is probably a bad example to use, still getting an hair under 1000dps out of medium autocannons on a ship that if set up properly can run at 1600m/s cap stable while tanking over 2500dps. Not really a nerf.
But I do still miss my old Trackinig Enhancers II, ;(
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
275
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Posted - 2013.10.14 06:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
AiMerc wrote:Look im not here to get flamed, but i feel like a lot fo changes are being made that are having a negative impact on my game experiance and it only feels right for me to complain about it in a setting where people will hopefully lisn and discuss it. I
quit even for a short bit (family issues) and i just recently came back. I fly strictly minmatar, always have. All of my skills are in gunnery, and my collection of ships are fitted to reflect my skills. I have spent lots of time and money training my skills and purchasing ships and fitting them out. Why has ccp decided to nerf minmatar so much. For example, my sleipnir, not a chap ship, and to properly fit is is not cheap either. Why was it deemed neccessary to drop 1 high slot, 2 turret hardpoints, and add a second launcher hardpoint?!? First off, minmatar is not a large missle faction, WE USE GUNS! This ship now does half the dps for me because i have very little missle skills. Same with the Cane, and they've completely ruined the claymore. CCP, you guys cant create a faction designed and geared twords one thing then completely flip a 180 after so many years. i dont know the right words to use, but it's just not cool. if i wanted to use missles i would gop fly caldari, thats how it's always been, why should that change? And if you are going to add missles to minmatar, dont do it to every ship. you can have the claymore, but leave my sleipnir alone. i can understand having a missle variant and a gun variant. but you made a missle boat and a hybrid. there is no pure gun boat in the command class now. i feel like im being punished for busting my rear to get where i am....I'm sure im not the only one that feels like this.....
waaaah sleipner waaah. Review the "illustrious" history of the loleos.
waaaah missiles waaah. Consider the pirate droneboats (and why I never and still don't fly them as a drone boat pilot).
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
187
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Posted - 2013.10.14 07:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
AiMerc wrote:First off, minmatar is not a large missle faction, WE USE GUNS! Really? Weren't the Minmatar the second most missile reliant race even before the current rounds of rebalancing? Granted, there was no Matari Caracal, no Matari Raven or Drake... But for a long while the 'phoon was 50/50 split on missiles and many Minmatar ships could be filled out with launchers. Perhaps the idea that Minmatar pilots don't need missile skills (it was always said that they did when I started) is indicative of the imbalance which was present in the minmatar line-up... |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1280
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Posted - 2013.10.14 19:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sleipnir a bad ship?? really?
Arty fit you get a nice bang for your buck, ACs fit as said above have now a tiny less effective turrets but (the but that hurts) +launchers on top AND can fit drones also, so yes does a bit more dps in the end. Sleipnir has a very good tank, I simply regret it's so dam slow (imho) but you better watch your back to see you have friends behind if you see one Sleip around well flown.
Fit it with 11.25effective turrets 2 med neuts lows full of dmg mods, mwd point tank and tell us more Sleipnir is a bad ship!! It's at least 5 times tougher than previous Canopownmobile and also has more dps...
Why do you guys keep moaning just because those aren't the "I win" button anymore? -it's good other races got buff to be able to compete with them, now you either know how to fly minmatar and you're still looking like that old pilot all teeth out laughing like a fool, or you just get powned because you never won with your skills but with an "I win" button. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
rusty532
Red Dawn Mercenaries Forsaken Asylum
1
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Posted - 2013.10.15 05:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
You might want to read the do autocannons have a point thread. Just because you can't press F1 and haphazardly mwd around at 30km anymore doesn't mean it's broken. The sleipnir is still a very strong ship with some added utility, and the claymore finally does better dps than a cyclone. In the end it isn't how much sp or isk you have, it's how you fly your ship and capitalize on its strengths. The strengths of autocannons are great tracking and damage projection. Damage won't be as flat as lasers but you're more than likely faster than those fat cats so keep your transversal high while you peck away. Kiting blaster boats still isn't a problem, and you can kiss missile boats right on the nose to get your highest damage output. Know thyself and thy enemy and you shall prevail! |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
133
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Posted - 2013.10.15 07:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
TBH the only thing about rebalance passes I haven't been a fan of is drone proliferation and I'll give you some examples of what I'm talking about as clearly that statement can't really be obvious about what I mean.
First off, I'm completely fine with ships that are designed as drone boats being drone boats (Arbitrator, Vexor, Dominix, Tristan, Dragoon, etc.) these ships are needed to fill the drone emphasis of these races and add flavor to the line ups, so having high bandwidth and a bay that supports multiple waves of drones is fine for these ships.
Where the addition of relatively large drone bays is an issue for me is on other ship types with things like a Cruicifier for example. Okay only two high slots doesn't make this ship a damage monster or anything and I even support giving it limited drones to allow it some measure of relevancy should a missile frigate or something warp in. Why does it need a 45m bay though? Even the Maulus doesn't get that much and it has too many replacements as well. Bandwidth and bay of 15/15 should have been fine for the Cruicifier as this is an e-war frigate, not a drone boat. How about a Heron, T1 probing frigate with 15/35, enough drone ability that you actually see them as unbonused e-war platforms on occasion due to their large number of mids and the fact that it carries enough drones that solo against some ships is not impossible. For me it really is less a bandwidth issue and more a bay issue that irks me, I'm fine with a lot of ships having some drones but if you're not a drone carrier I don't think you should be carrying multiple waves or potentially some big utility drone bay.
For the most part this applies to frigates like the ones I mentioned, cruisers and above I largely have no issues with only a handful of exceptions (Harb for example, Prophecy and Myrmidon are fine with the big bay as they are drone ships). I don't consider this to be a huge issue or anything but I would prefer that non-drone boats need to bring smaller ships or combat frigates if they are worried about being held down by a frigate that might pop their drones and leave them helpless. Aside from that I have been very happy to see a much wider array of things being flown and used effectively as it keeps the game a lot more interesting. I was getting very tired of seeing that Reddish-Orange background behind the ship on 90% of killmails for so long, I was starting to see it as the backdrop in my dreams. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12087
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Posted - 2013.10.15 12:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Does virtually the same gun DPS
Effectively gains a utility high slot OR 2 launchers
Can now also fit 3 warfare links
Complains about being "nerfed"
1 Kings 12:11
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Batelle
RisingSuns
190
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Posted - 2013.10.15 13:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
AiMerc wrote:there is no pure gun boat in the command class now.
TWO 10% damage per level bonuses, 10% falloff bonus, no missile bonuses. Yep its a gun boat. I bet you think the marauders aren't true gun boats because they only get 4 turrets? Fighting is Magic |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2728
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Posted - 2013.10.15 17:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Some people just don't understand ship balance....
lol... Sleipnir nerf... lol!
And every race has multiple weapon systems.... always has.
Caldari were Missiles and Hybrids. Gallente were Hybrids and drones, occasionally with missiles. Amarr were Lasers and drones, occasionally with missiles. Minmatar were Autocannons and Missiles.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12093
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Posted - 2013.10.15 17:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think it goes something like:
Caldari: Missiles > Hybrids > Drones Gallente: Hybrids = Drones > Missiles Amarr: Lasers > Drones = Missiles Minmatar: Projectiles > Missiles > Drones
All races can use a turret type, missiles and drones. They all vary in their emphasis. There is no "pure" gun/missile/drone race.
1 Kings 12:11
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
121
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Posted - 2013.10.15 19:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
I may be wrong but I think that Gallente do not possess ships that have missile bonuses like the other three Races (barring the Nemesis of course). Also, is there a minnie subcap that has drone bonuses ? |
StahlWaffe
Vindictious
5
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Posted - 2013.10.15 19:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:I may be wrong but I think that Gallente do not possess ships that have missile bonuses like the other three Races (barring the Nemesis of course). Also, is there a minnie subcap that has drone bonuses ?
The Breacher, which is the Minmatar pendant to the Incursus, sports 1 more drone. Does that count?
Also, the Lachesis and Eris are Missile and Hybrid bonused. Most likely this trend will continue for Roden Yard ships to grant them the choice between missiles and hybrids, much like the Scythe Fleet does. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
121
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Posted - 2013.10.15 21:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
totally forgot about those two, thanks. |
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