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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.16 19:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
There is no real need to have these Margin Trading Scams.
It irks me that I cant just arrive at the station with the relevant goods in the right quantities and make a profit. (I dont have a problem with Scams per se, but a poor implementation of Margin Trading makes a mockery of the market.) The buyer cancelling the order before I have a chance to fulfil it I have no issue with that, but its the auto-cancel I have issue with.
Suggestion 1: (prefered) Ensure that the seller covers the minimum quantity as part of the original amount in Eskrow.
Example 1: Minimum Quantity = 5 Total Quantity = 5 Item value = 1m Minimum Escrow amount 5 m (assuming maxed Margin Trading Skills)
Example 2: Minimum Quantity = 5 Total Quantity = 25 item value = 1m Minimum Escrow amount 10m (5m for the minimum quantity then 25% of the remainder) (Once the first batch are sold the escrow amount would reduce to 5m + 25% of remaining order) If the escrow cant be covered then the buy order can be terminated, but the order should be fulfilled as much as possible.
Suggestion 2: (punitive) Continue with the current implementation, but in the event the buy order fails, all of the escrow amount is given to the player attempting to fill the buy order, rather than returned to the buyer.
A penalty free system allows too much market manipulation as well as giving the scammers ammunition. I dont feel that these changes would be a burden on players using the skill as intended.
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Admiral PizzaRoll
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.10.16 19:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
You don't seem to understand how Margin Trading works or why it exists.
Margin Trading scams are obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Instead of whining to CCP to make the game easier for you, just stop being so bad at Eve. |
NFain
Fain Industries
24
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Posted - 2013.10.16 19:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote:There is no real need to have these Margin Trading Scams.
It irks me that I cant just arrive at the station with the relevant goods in the right quantities and make a profit. (I dont have a problem with Scams per se, but a poor implementation of Margin Trading makes a mockery of the market.) The buyer cancelling the order before I have a chance to fulfil it I have no issue with that, but its the auto-cancel I have issue with.
Suggestion 1: (prefered) Ensure that the seller covers the minimum quantity as part of the original amount in Escrow.
Example 1: Minimum Quantity = 5 Total Quantity = 5 Item value = 1m Minimum Escrow amount 5 m (assuming maxed Margin Trading Skills)
Example 2: Minimum Quantity = 5 Total Quantity = 25 item value = 1m Minimum Escrow amount 10m (5m for the minimum quantity then 25% of the remainder) (Once the first batch are sold the escrow amount would reduce to 5m + 25% of remaining order) If the escrow cant be covered then the buy order can be terminated, but the order should be fulfilled as much as possible.
Suggestion 2: (punitive) Continue with the current implementation, but in the event the buy order fails, all of the escrow amount is given to the player attempting to fill the buy order, rather than returned to the buyer.
A penalty free system allows too much market manipulation as well as giving the scammers ammunition. I dont feel that these changes would be a burden on players using the skill as intended.
It wouldn't work anyways, people make a lot more from the item trade then they would lose in the escrow costs. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1493
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Posted - 2013.10.16 19:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
why would you want to reduce scams?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.16 19:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Admiral PizzaRoll wrote:You don't seem to understand how Margin Trading works or why it exists.
Margin Trading scams are obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Instead of whining to CCP to make the game easier for you, just stop being so bad at Eve.
I know exactly why Margin Trading exists, but please point to me an example of why it would be beneficial to ask for a minimum quantity of 5 a total of 5 and yet not force me to cover the entire order? EXCEPT for market manipulation or a scam.
Sure shoot me down for being "bad" at eve, but I feel that this is unnecessary market abuse, there is a buy order on the market, why shouldnt it execute? OH because it shouldnt be there because it will never execute. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Compulsory Euthanasia
984
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Posted - 2013.10.16 21:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
I remember you! You were the person I got 1.35 billion out of on 'Cactus' modules! Thank you.
If margin trading were changed, how would I fund my miner ganking activities? Not signed. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
501
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Posted - 2013.10.16 21:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
So, do you want it so when you go to buy the items, the order is locked, so only you can sell to it?
How would you implement this C.O.D method?
How would you stop an individual pulling their order the second you buy from them? |
Angeal MacNova
XDraconis CombineX
84
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Posted - 2013.10.16 22:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
The "solution" is simple. Allow people's balances to go into the red under certain circumstances. This being one of those circumstances. You have the items in the right quantity to fill a buy order for which the player who owns the buy order doesn't have the isk? You get the isk, they go into the red and can no longer make any purchases until they are back in the black.
How would this effect scams?
Well, the other day I saw a market scam. The person was repeating an ad in local for a "botched buy order" for which they claim to have "found" but "don't have the isk to take advantage of". Here's a hint, let people discover it on their own. It was some item where they bought up the few on the market, put up a couple for about 350M isk per and had a buy order for 700M. So some unsuspecting person will see this and think they can just buy one for 350M and sell it for 700M. Since there were some other buy orders for 700k, I assume that they put up the 700M for a minimum of 10 per transaction.
Where would the proposed change come in for such a scam? Simple, if someone had 10 already, they could fill that buy order for 700M. If they aquired those 10 for less than 700M, then they can make a profit.
Changing how the skill works or allowing balances to go into the red won't stop the scams, it will only get rid of the safety net for the scammer. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1931
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Posted - 2013.10.16 22:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Objectively speaking, this is actually one of the more rational "fixes" to the problem that I've ever seen. That doesn't say much, though, since most often the proposed fixes essentially destroy the legitimate usefulness of the skill.
Subjectively speaking, "hahaha you fell for that." Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
92
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Posted - 2013.10.17 00:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
This won't have any effect on scammers utilizing Margin Trading because ones that aren't terrible clear their escrow, unless as part of your idea buy order/escrow validity is constantly checked rather than just when someone attempts to fill buy order. Suggestion 2 would be completely unfair for any legitimate user of Margin Trading while still failing to 'punish' scammers.
Scammers ammunition is their marks' greed. .
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1327
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Posted - 2013.10.17 03:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
If you want the scam to go away, while retaining the intended properties of MT (and that "if" is up to CCP to decide), temporarily remove the order from the market screen if the buyer's escrow+wallet are not enough to cover the minimum quantity. Once the buyer gets more ISK in their wallet, the order reappears. This will have no effect on "legitimate" users of MT, as their order will be invisible only if they wouldn't be able to buy through it anyway; but it will stop the scams as every visible order on the market would be usable.
This of course wouldn't (and shouldn't) stop anyone from manually cancelling the buy order as soon as the sell order is bought out. Doing that would negatively impact people legitimately wanting to cancel their orders for whatever reason. |
Angeal MacNova
XDraconis CombineX
84
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Posted - 2013.10.17 03:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Actually I was doing some trading today and I setup a buy order that was about 3% below regional average. I think it was Pyerite. I put up a buy order for 10.30 isk and ended up buying someones sell order. Their sell order was for 10.15. I took a look at the buy records and saw that despite their sell order for 10.15, I bought it at my buy order price of 10.30.
This was after last posting in this thread which led to me a thought for this skill.
What if it reduced the difference to such buy order situations?
Eg.
Someone has a sell order for 100 and I create a buy order for 150. That's a difference of 50.
Here is what would happen at the different skill levels.
lvl 0 - I buy that item for 150 (my buy order price) lvl 1 - I buy it for 140 lvl 2 - I buy it for 130 lvl 3 - I buy it for 120 lvl 4 - I buy it for 110 lvl 5 - I buy it for 100 (their sell order price)
The trend is a 20% reduction to the difference per level. |
Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.17 06:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:This won't have any effect on scammers utilizing Margin Trading because ones that aren't terrible clear their escrow, unless as part of your idea buy order/escrow validity is constantly checked rather than just when someone attempts to fill the buy order. Suggestion 2 would be completely unfair for any legitimate user of Margin Trading while still failing to 'punish' scammers who clear their escrow.
Scammers ammunition is their marks' greed.
Either you misunderstand escrow, or the game has a broken sense of it. It should not be possible to clear down the escrow amount as this is the locked funds used to cover the trade.
What they are clearing down (imo) is the additional funds to cover, such that if the order is attempted to be executed they must have the additional funds in the wallet to cover the full order.
Suggestion 2 only affects legitimate users of Margin Trading if they overextend their finances
Example: Wallet isk 25m item value: 1m margin trading level 5 minimum quantity 1 order quantity 100 escrow ~25m ( 1m +24%)
when someone comes along to execute this trade there are only enough funds available for 50 items, yet the order is for 100. I would say this is legitimate but misguided attempt at Margin Trading, the order should execute for as many items as the seller can afford and then cancel the remaining contract, any left over escrow would go to the seller, but it would be very small.
@ Angeal MacNova, you are confusing "Margin Trading" with "Execute at Best" you received the item at the price you were willing to pay, the seller however made more profit. While not as good as it could be, it isnt broken. |
Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.17 06:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Objectively speaking, this is actually one of the more rational "fixes" to the problem that I've ever seen. That doesn't say much, though, since most often the proposed fixes essentially destroy the legitimate usefulness of the skill.
Subjectively speaking, "hahaha you fell for that."
My full disclosure would be that I work as a developer for an evil investment bank, so I appreciate the coding nature of the solution as well as its financial impact. yes I was scammed this way, but luckily my market exposure was lessened by getting most of the items at more normal prices.
EvE has great scope for many different play methods, and I'm currently getting into trading properly despite being scammed moons ago, it would be nice to see a more sophisticated trade landscape, but getting more shiny ships is probably higher on CCPs agenda |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
188
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Posted - 2013.10.17 07:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote:Example 1: Minimum Quantity = 5 Total Quantity = 5 Item value = 1m Minimum Escrow amount 5 m (assuming maxed Margin Trading Skills)
Workaround: Increase total quantity to 10, provide 5 of item to alt and sell them back to your own order.
Result: All funds in Escrow removed by alt, current function of scam maintained. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
501
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Posted - 2013.10.17 07:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote: Either you misunderstand escrow, or the game has a broken sense of it. It should not be possible to clear down the escrow amount as this is the locked funds used to cover the trade.
What they are clearing down (imo) is the additional funds to cover, such that if the order is attempted to be executed they must have the additional funds in the wallet to cover the full order.
Totally not a margin scam....or something
Now, in case anyone thinks the above image shows an awesome deal which amounts to free isk, and the guy with the buy order is an idiot for wanting to buy them for so much..... Take careful note of the 2 orders at the top which, handily amount to just over 30.
Exporty stuff This is what it looks like when you export. Notice that there were originally 60 requested, min amount 30, but now, there are only 30 needed. This means they have sold themselves 30.
This isk comes from Escrow. Escrow empties before the "Isk to cover" in the wallet does, and, to the best of my knowledge, is for the entirety of your buy orders, not assigned to individual ones. |
Wafflehead
Hurricane Research
29
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Posted - 2013.10.17 07:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Another redundant thread..
There is already a lengthy thread in the Features & Ideas Discussion forums. Margin Trading Scams and Proposed Fixes |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
189
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Objectively speaking, this is actually one of the more rational "fixes" to the problem that I've ever seen. That doesn't say much, though, since most often the proposed fixes essentially destroy the legitimate usefulness of the skill.
Subjectively speaking, "hahaha you fell for that."
At least their isk went to a good cause. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
92
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote: Either you misunderstand escrow, or the game has a broken sense of it. It should not be possible to clear down the escrow amount as this is the locked funds used to cover the trade.
What they are clearing down (imo) is the additional funds to cover, such that if the order is attempted to be executed they must have the additional funds in the wallet to cover the full order.
Suggestion 2 only affects legitimate users of Margin Trading if they overextend their finances
Eve is a game and thus has different rules to real life, you do not understand these rules which is one of the reasons you were scammed. Read up on Margin Trading and its associated scams. "ISK to cover" is exactly that, the ISK (minus what is already in escrow) needed to complete all buy orders.
Isn't the entire point of Margin Trading to extend your reach on the market? Start adding arbitrary penalties for "legitimately" using it and people are going to be rightly demanding SP refunds. .
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Baggo Hammers
155
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Posted - 2013.10.18 04:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
One more time. Scams only work because the mark is careless and/or greedy. Period. You can't expect the game to be changed each time you are butthurt.
Consider it practice for RL. If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. |
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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.18 07:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.
Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
92
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Posted - 2013.10.18 13:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote:The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.
Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system.
If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way. .
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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.18 20:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Mnemonym wrote:The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.
Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system. If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way.
Not if we have Suggestion 1 in place, as the scammer would need to have enough escrow to cover the minimum quantity, making the trade executable. |
Shingyoku
Griffin Support Services Ad-Astra
14
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Posted - 2013.10.20 08:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
You should have the ability to turn your own margin trading skills on and off, that's really the only change it needs. |
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
17
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Posted - 2013.10.21 12:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Baggo Hammers wrote:One more time. Scams only work because the mark is careless and/or greedy. Period. You can't expect the game to be changed each time you are butthurt.
Consider it practice for RL.
Hehe well said... life doesn't get nerfed every time somebody gets scammed :p |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4276
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Posted - 2013.10.21 21:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Mnemonym wrote:The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.
Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system. If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way. Not if we have Suggestion 1 in place, as the scammer would need to have enough escrow to cover the minimum quantity, making the trade executable.
As Elizabeth said, that just limits the scam to ~4 times the actual value of the items. The minimum order volume has nothing to do with it.
Of course, you can do the exact same scam without any market interface. It's one of the oldest ones in the world. It even has it's own entry on the "list of scams" Wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks#Fiddle_game The way to avoid it is to refuse to buy things if you don't know what they're worth. (Hey, this sounds like every piece of investing advice anyone's ever given... funny, that.) "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
96
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Posted - 2013.10.21 23:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:As Elizabeth said, that just limits the scam to ~4 times the actual value of the items. The minimum order volume has nothing to do with it. Of course, you can do the exact same scam without any market interface. It's one of the oldest ones in the world. It even has it's own entry on the "list of scams" Wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks#Fiddle_gameThe way to avoid it is to refuse to buy things if you don't know what they're worth. (Hey, this sounds like every piece of investing advice anyone's ever given... funny, that.)
I believe that if both changes were made, escrow clearing and minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create orders that would never complete. .
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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
0
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Posted - 2013.10.23 20:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
I believe that if both changes were made, removal escrow clearing and addition of minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create buy orders that would never complete.
This is what I would like to see, Order that WILL complete.
That is all.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
96
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Posted - 2013.10.24 00:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mnemonym wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:
I believe that if both changes were made, removal escrow clearing and addition of minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create buy orders that would never complete.
This is what I would like to see, Order that WILL complete. That is all.
Orders with min quantity 1, quantity >1 would still be able fail if you try sell more than one when the creator has an empty wallet. .
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OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
234
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Posted - 2013.10.25 01:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
{wanders into thread, stretches, dusts self off}
Oh my. I've been gone for like a year, and what a surprise, these threads still exist. Working as intended and all.
Good to see everyone again. |
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