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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
635
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Posted - 2013.10.19 23:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
A Griffin makes for a really cheap escort. You can pop an ECM burst on it and have it warp alongside your hauler. If the hauler is attacked, just ECM burst at the gate. Doesn't matter much if the Griffin dies, and the Griffin pilot won't lose much sec status for that either. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Sarah Stallman
International Unification
21
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Posted - 2013.10.20 00:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Meyr wrote:...you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks.
Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
635
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
Sarah Stallman wrote:Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting. Mostly true, but a single person can pull off a multibox gank of a freighter if using tornadoes and the freighter takes too long to warp (one friend bumping, never has to lose a ship) Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Sarah Stallman
International Unification
22
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Posted - 2013.10.20 01:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Time to warp can't be an issue, a single warp disruptor would prevent that. A dozen gank fit catalysts doing 700 DPS will take something on the order of 20 seconds to kill a freighter, if they hit for full damage every shot, and I bet it doesn't take CONCORD long after arriving on grid to take out a gank catalyst. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sarah Stallman wrote:Time to warp can't be an issue, a single warp disruptor would prevent that. A dozen gank fit catalysts doing 700 DPS will take something on the order of 20 seconds to kill a freighter, if they hit for full damage every shot
Miniluv has some people doing multibox ganks, with the assistance of ISBoxer. It's not easy, especially with catalysts, as you need to bump the freighter 150 off the gate-guns (they one-shot a gank catalyst). With brutix/talos gangs you don't HAVE to bump, but usually ganking on a gate is a bad idea due to random ****-lords bumping your hauler or stealing the loot.
Quote:and I bet it doesn't take CONCORD long after arriving on grid to take out a gank catalyst
Doesn't matter what ship you are in, few seconds after CONCORD is on grid you are jammed, neuted and have 0 drone bandwidth - it's the same for a frigate as for a battleship. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:15:00 -
[66] - Quote
Meyr wrote:There is no 'safe hauling value', that concept is meaningless. Sometimes, it's simply the killmail that someone's after. The issue here is whether or not a freighter pilot should have the ability to gimp the primary purpose of his ship (cargo capacity) in order to make it more survivable, just as miners do (except that there's no 'Hulk', 'Mackinaw', and 'Skiff' versions of freighters, they're ALL 'Hulks', with minimal tank, maximum capacity).
If people want a killmail, they will bring whatever they have ready to do the job and no amount of tank can safe you. Just a couple hours ago a member of GSF suicide ganked miners in a Navy Brutix and "faction" catalysts - just because he can.
There are already differences between the freighters, they could adjust those to make the choice which freighter you take more meaningful (Fenrir is fastest, but least ehp for example). I don't agree with the "minimal tank" assessment, they have enough tank to discourage random ganks.
Quote:Your suggestion that I bring escorts with high alpha, two webbing ships, and a couple of ECM hulls to escort my single freighter is what prompted the 'bring friends' comment, as in, if I have to bring more help, so should you. As for single pilots ganking freighters, you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks.
1. I already have to bring friends as solo ganking a freighter is impossible. Nothing stops you from multiboxing your ECM fleet. 2. That's a single PLAYER multiboxing several PILOTS - that's far from solo ganking. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Shonion
FREE GATES
40
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Posted - 2013.10.20 07:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795
And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15591
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:41:00 -
[68] - Quote
Shonion wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can. You do realise why that ship was ganked? I'll give you a hint, it was the first item on the list and they judged the other items involved to be enough to take that gamble. Plus I have a feeling those ships would fetch more on the market.
But the request was for the supposed dozens that die daily with 1 Billion or less, not a one off with what could have been a big money package. So if there are dozens of such kills within the daily requirement, why didn't you list them?
It's has been asked so many times before, if it's so easy and such a good money maker, then why are there not more freighter kills?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:46:00 -
[69] - Quote
Shonion wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.
1.) I'm not a native english speaker, so forgive me if I missed that a "dozens" are, in fact, only "one". My request was for tens (maybe that word is better?) of those freighters dying each day - surely if it were easy or profitable there would be a lot of those kills.
2.) That particular freighter was ganked because of the plastic wrap. It's basically a gamble on the ganker's side: Is he carrying 10 PLEX or just a handful of garbage in that wrap? I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Sarah Stallman
International Unification
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:23:00 -
[70] - Quote
Shonion wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.
Plastic wrap is, to my knowledge, nearly always assumed to be PLEX. The presence of plastic wrap means the freighter will be ganked any time it is physically possible to do so.
The lesson isn't that freighters aren't tough enough, but rather that one should never, ever put plastic wrap into one. |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
637
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
Is that really true? If I were rich, maybe I would start flying empty freighters with empty plastic wrap just to screw with gankers. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Shonion
FREE GATES
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Is that really true? If I were rich, maybe I would start flying empty freighters with empty plastic wrap just to screw with gankers.
Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :) |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:27:00 -
[73] - Quote
Shonion wrote:Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :)
Specifically they are double-wrapped courier contracts. Chances are good that someone who goes through the trouble of double-wrapping, has something valuable inside. Since you can't scan double-wraps, it's like a birthday present: It could be the sweet new console/gaming rig/television - or a voucher for a dinner with aunt Mary. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
363
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 17:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sarah Stallman wrote:Meyr wrote:...you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks. Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting.
ISBoxer, which CCP deems legal. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
363
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 17:21:00 -
[75] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Shonion wrote:Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :) Specifically they are double-wrapped courier contracts. Chances are good that someone who goes through the trouble of double-wrapping, has something valuable inside. Since you can't scan double-wraps, it's like a birthday present: It could be the sweet new console/gaming rig/television - or a voucher for a dinner with aunt Mary.
Unless Red Frog changed their policy, they double wrap everything.
And freighters getting ganked daily with less than 1b cargo? Simple:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20085357 Your own alliance does so. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20084830 And one of your little "birthday presents"
Any freighter carrying more than 5b of cargo deserves to be ganked, though. There is a certain point when Darwinism NEEDS to take effect or carebears will just take over EVE, and then what bloated nullsec bloc am I supposed to shoot at? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 17:50:00 -
[76] - Quote
You may notice that in both cases there was plastic wrap involved, which (when there's more than 1 wrap) can mean big payout or nothing. In the first kill there were 4 couriers, that could have been huge, but you can't tell from the killmail, since :ccp: only shows plastic wrap as a content of a double-wrapped package. You can see that the cargo displayed was in none of the wraps, else it would have shown as dropped.
I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:57:00 -
[77] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Unless Red Frog changed their policy, they double wrap everything.
Red Frog does not double wrap and hasn't for a while for the exact reasons pointed out here. |
Psychoactive Stimulant
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Siting inflation at the same time as crying for freighter buffs is counter-intuitive.
Things getting blown up, making isk unrecoverable in-game HELPS KEEP INFLATION DOWN.
Sinks and faucets, dude. Sinks and faucets. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:23:00 -
[79] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:Siting inflation at the same time as crying for freighter buffs is counter-intuitive.
Things getting blown up, making isk unrecoverable in-game HELPS KEEP INFLATION DOWN.
Sinks and faucets, dude. Sinks and faucets.
How is blowing stuff up removing ISK from the game? Hint: A freighter gank INJECTS several hundred million ISK due to insurance payouts. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Psychoactive Stimulant
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:41:00 -
[80] - Quote
If you ganked an amarr station, instead of a freighter, you would not make money from insurance payouts.
If you gank a freighter, which itself costs more than 1b, with like 1b more cargo in it, with a 50% destruction rate. There is no way mathematically possible that more was "fauceted" than "sinked".
Ganking is goooooood for the economy. |
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:52:00 -
[81] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:If you ganked an amarr station, instead of a freighter, you would not make money from insurance payouts.
If you gank a freighter, which itself costs more than 1b, with like 1b more cargo in it, with a 50% destruction rate. There is no way mathematically possible that more was "fauceted" than "sinked".
Ganking is goooooood for the economy.
Person A has 2 Billion ISK Person B has a Freighter and a PLEX
Total: 2Billion, a Freighter and a PLEX
Person B sells Person A the Freighter and the PLEX for 1.5B Now:
Person A has 0.5Billion ISK, a Freighter and a PLEX Person B has 1.5Billion ISK
Total: 2Billion, a Freighter and a PLEX
Person A insures the freighter for 200M, with 800M Premium payout (not actual numbers, but good for demonstration) Person A gets blown up, the PLEX is destroyed, receiving 800M payout from insurance Now:
Person A has 1.1Billion ISK Person B has 1.5Billion ISK
Total: 2.6 Billion ISK
Ship ganking nearly always results in more ISK in the economy. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2300
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:45:00 -
[82] - Quote
I think it worth noting that changes to the game have made it too dangerous to actually fill a freighter full of anything but the lowest value and highest volume things (like scrap metal back when it was 50m3). Even filling a Charon with veldspar will push it over the break even limit for a gank.
Freighters cannot effectively use their entire cargohold for much anymore. The only legitimate and specific use of freighters with that much cargo is for carrying station eggs.
EDIT: That being said, I don't support an EHP nerf. I don't think Freighters need a nerf in that department at all.
I would however support the removal of some cargo space and a reduction in agility in order to add a single low slot and rig slot, as suggested early in the thread. The ability to tank, increase mobility, or bring cargoholds back to egg-carrying ability would be the best option.
Freighters do not need to be easier to gank. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
638
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Ship ganking nearly always results in more ISK in the economy. That would only be true if everyone being ganked was insuriing their ships beforehand, and everyone not getting ganked was not insuring them. If half of the people insuring their ships don't lose the ship while the insurance lasts, there is no ISK inserted into the economy through insuring. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2300
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Person A insures the freighter for 200M, with 800M Premium payout (not actual numbers, but good for demonstration)
Current platinum insurance quotes for a Charon located in The Forge, as of 04:00 2013/10/21
Deposit: 326,044,800 ISK Payout: 1,086,816,000 ISK Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
112
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
That freighters are only allowed to 'safely' fill their cargo with incredibly bulky ultra-low-value items... is idiotic.
You just robbed a semi truck hauling DIRT and came away with a profit? Yeah, they should've gotten some panzer tanks and surveillance drones to escort and scout for them... to help them haul... dirt..... /facepalm |
Sarah Stallman
International Unification
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 05:10:00 -
[86] - Quote
Rented wrote:You just robbed a semi truck hauling DIRT and came away with a profit? Yeah, they should've gotten some panzer tanks and surveillance drones to escort and scout for them... to help them haul... dirt..... /facepalm
That entirely depends on context. To take your analogy farther, moving goods in high sec is like taking a semi full of valuables through a freeway where you have to stop every few minutes and each stop may or may not have a swarm of thieves peeking at your cargo to see if you're worth brutally murderating so they can loot the wreckage. If your dirt is valuable enough to be worth the effort, someone will take you up on it.
Seriously, we can throw examples at each other all day, but there's less than a dozen freighter ganks on an average day in all of high sec. Since everyone seems to be successfully getting their **** from Point A to Point B, we have to assume that means they're very good at their jobs. |
Crayne
Birds of Steel Kraftwerk.
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 06:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
Why not keep it as it is ( the freighters) and instead make cargo scanning an act of piracy with the result of being concordokened? Gankers wouldn't have to bring more ppl but instead the scanner would have to reship and lose sec status. I mean...the scanner is part of the gank, why shouldn't he be punished, too? (And a scanner frig isnt that expensive, you could have 50 fully fit on station, rdy to reship) This might result in making ganks a little harder to work without the gankers having to bring more ppl. |
Sarah Stallman
International Unification
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:15:00 -
[88] - Quote
Again, as a carebear mining pilot I am firmly of the opinion that freighters are fine as-is. If anything, I'd like to see them with a very minor nerf to EHP to make ganking more common rather than less. There's less than twelve lost a day in high sec, and nearly a third of those are all in Niarja.
RF's rates make an excellent case study. Red Frog charges 500,000 * (n + 2) for a courier contract, where n is the number of jumps. I'm going to guess the average length their courier contracts is six jumps, so if they kept all of the proceeds to replace lose freighters, then they would break even if they lost a freighter once every 227 runs. If the pilot keeps half then they're making roughly 20 million ISK/hour and suddenly RF breaks even if they lose a freighter once every 454 contracts.
Assuming RF is making a profit (and you know they are) then the average freighter pilot working for them has at *least* a 99.8% chance of making it alive. I can't imagine many other ships in New Eden can claim that kind of success rate. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Ship ganking nearly always results in more ISK in the economy. That would only be true if everyone being ganked was insuriing their ships beforehand, and everyone not getting ganked was not insuring them. If half of the people insuring their ships don't lose the ship while the insurance lasts, there is no ISK inserted into the economy through insuring.
Even if you don't insure you will get a couple hundred million isk - isk injected into the economy. over all, insurance is an isk faucet, but I don't have numbers that only count freighters. I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
638
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
Crayne wrote:Why not keep it as it is ( the freighters) and instead make cargo scanning an act of piracy with the result of being concordokened? It wouldn't help your scenario much because medium slot scanners are certainly the lowest value junk that actually gets used in all of EVE. Bu it's also not very fair. Why should I get CONCORDOKKENED when I scanned a ship for a reason other than ganking it? And I'd also like some time to sift through my results if I'm new at scanning.
Scanning a ship causes no direct damage, therefore it should not be a criminal offense. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
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