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Buzz Madullier
The Essence of Nike
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 00:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/9UC3Sgw.png
It was instant. 1 shot and I was dead. I didn't think people suicide ganked for so little and a mixture of just a whole bunch of modules that they would probably have trouble selling if they didn't know the market I was heading to. Well luckily they only got about 200mil worth of my cargo, but being new to the game, this put me back at square one.
Any tips on how to prevent this? I don't think any defense modules would of helped me since he did all my health in one shot. |
Ernest Erkannen
AirHogs Zulu People
13
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
700mill worth of cargo + ship iteron V
there is your problem
use an orca ,freighter or freight services or split the cargo |
Zycorax II
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
4
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
First of all, never haul that much ISK value in a t1 hauler. Second, fit some sort of buffer tank. A Damage Control, a shield extender or two and some shield resist mods could save your ship if you're being attacked. |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
214
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
First thing first, don't undock with what you cannot afford to lose.
Second, don't overfill an industrial ship. It becomes a loot pi+Ķata. I'd strongly recommend not putting more than say 50M in an industrial ship. Some may go higher, but basically the other person makes a calculation based on what they think they can gain and how much it costs to get there. 750M buys a lot of ships. 70B lost in an iteron buys you eternal mocking.
Third, fit some tank. That means shields, resist modules. From the loss-mail, you had nothing in midslots.
You will eventually encounter someone with a fast locking ship that is frequently called an "instacane" (a hurricane with artillery and sensor boosters - targets very fast and hits very hard with a first volley, but long time before second shot). Many folks sit outside of the warp gates from trade hubs with cargo & ship scanners along passive targeting systems so you don't know they've been picking through your pockets and checked your fittings.
From your loss-mail, it looks like you have most of the skills for this, with my skills is 31,000 EHP (about 15x your loss' EHP):
Quote:[Sigil, Brick Hauler] Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Warp Core Stabilizer I Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I You can use meta-4 modules until you get there. If anyone starts targetting you, hit the adaptive invulnerabilities and damage control. With my skills (evasive maneuvering 5, mostly), it warps in 5 seconds.
Cargo capacity is a lot lower, but then that will help with avoiding the big neon "shoot me" on the side. |
Buzz Madullier
The Essence of Nike
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for the tips guys. Definitely a hard lesson learned for me. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Compulsory Euthanasia
995
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Posted - 2013.10.18 03:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buzz Madullier wrote:Definitely a hard lesson learned for me.
Those are the lessons we remember.
The public courier contract feature is extremely useful as it lets you outsource the entirety of the risk of hauling to a useful idiot (sorry, freighter pilot) who will then do the actual carting of the goods for you.
I recently needed to move a shipment of 5 Ishtars, 2 Oneiroses, 2 Hyperions and some tech 2 modules (total value ~1470m) through highsec (just two jumps from where I build to where I sell). Due to my lack of hauling skills, I could only move those ships one at a time (by piloting the Hyps and Ishtars, and with the Oneiroses in the cargo bay of an Iteron). Using the contract feature, I posted a contract whereby someone takes my shipment and puts down a deposit of 1.62 billion ISK, then upon completing the contract, receives their 1.62b back plus an extra 8 million.
The contract was accepted within 5 minutes and completed within two hours. Had they been ganked, I would have MADE 150m out of the deal.
Of course, I have also been known to use the contract feature for slightly more deceptive purposes too. Two PLEX (to make pirates that cargo scan the useful idiot go gaga), several low value deadspace modules to make it even more appealing, and enough tritanium and/or unpackaged ship hulls to require a freighter, and you've got a parcel everyone wants to gank. Put a 9 billion collateral on it, and just send it from trade hub to trade hub until a useful idiot loses the lottery (and you win it). https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front. |
Vanchelon
Aurum Aquila
21
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Posted - 2013.10.18 05:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you yourself don't have a freighter (which you can load appropriately, same principle applies here, never afk autopilot and never assume you are 100% safe), I would suggest using RFF: http://red-frog.org/jumps.php You can of course use public courier contracts as well, but RFF are extremely reliable and pretty cheap.
If you do haul in a freighter, I would suggest a) keep an eye on killboards for the high risk systems (0.5 and 0.6 mainly, such as Niarja or Uedama). b) Move your stuff at an appropriate time of day, say... noon on a thursday over prime time sunday :) c) Use a webbing alt if possible (for near-instant warps) |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
502
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Posted - 2013.10.18 07:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
in addition to the freighter stuff...for the love of bacon, do not overfill it. 1bn is usually the max for a freighter...flying a freighter with 5bn or whatever in it is like saying "shoot here please!".
On the other hand, while paranoia is good in eve, do not be overparanoid. |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine The Unforgiven Alliance
47
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Posted - 2013.10.18 10:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd also like to add some advice for you.
If you fit any active modules that you need to press to activate - e.g adaptive field doo-hickys - run them ALL the time when you are hauling. Going through a system gate turns them off so you will need to re-activate them after each jump - which means being at keyboard. When you activate these modules they produce a graphical effect on your ship which a potential pirate/ganker can see. It instantly makes you a less attractive target. The opposite is also true - if the pirate can see you have no graphical effects active then they are attracted to that and will investigate you more as a possible target. Imagine two freighters flying through space, both passing a pirate looking for a kill, the pirate instantly sees one freighter is running active tanky modules from the graphical effects, the other is not. Which freighter do you think is going to get further attention from the pirate? Which one would you rather be? Also in the event you are attacked the attacker will have the element of surprise on you and as a newer player you will probably panic. All this means it will longer for your brain to turn your active modules on. If they are permanently running you can panic in safety with your active modules protecting you from before the attack even happened. I wouldn't be surprised if some people die in a gank without even switching their modules on in the panic of the moment. Running your modules permanently as a matter of practice will probably save your life.
Don't haul on autopilot Away From Keyboard. In fact don't do anything in Eve AFK. If you are obviously AFK some people will blow you up just for being AFK. If you haul AFK you can't activate your modules as above. Autopilot also has one massive drawback over manual piloting - each time you autopilot warp to the next stargate you drop out of warp 15Km from the stargate and slowboat to the gate - if you do it manually you warp onto the stargate. This 15Km slowboat to the gate is prime ganktime - it gives the pirate plenty of time to scan you and decide if you are worth the gank. Lets put it this way. The 15km slowboat to the stargates in Eve compared to the manual warp to 0 on a stargate is specifically in the game for the benefit of pirates. That's the ONLY reason it exists. I personally wouldn't even move an EMPTY hauler through highsec on autopilot, as it's such a lulz kill target. Imagine the autopilot button as being connected to a massive neon "kill me now" sign on the outside of your ship that flashes continually as your ship plods through space. Even using autopilot in a shuttle is risking all your implants for a lulz kill. Never use autopilot.
Avoid - or at the very least be aware of the where the favoured gank systems are. On the Jita to Amarr run for instance there is one system on the route that is 0.5 security, and has no stations to dock up at in the event of trouble. The system is Niarja. Every trader hauling between Jita and Amarr ends up going through there. If your hauler is going to get ganked on that trade run, that's where its going to happen. Knowing that system is where it's going to happen is half the battle. You could for instance scout it out first, or look up the kill density, see if miniluv is active there right now, etc... my point being when you know where the problem is you can take action and prepare.
Understand pirate ganker maths. They use a very simple equation to decide who to hit. They compare the value of what you are hauling to the cost of the ships needed to break your tank. The higher your tank the more it costs them to break it. They will also look for holes in the different resistances - assume they will always know the right ammo to use to kill you the quickest. If your cargo is worth more than the cost to them of suicide ganking you then you are dead before you even undock, it's that simple. Do the maths yourself, make sure you aren't worth killing before undocking.
It's impossible to be in total safety in Eve, if someone really wants to get you they will, but your job as a hauler is to make yourself a less attractive target than the moron next to you. The low hanging fruit gets picked first, don't be the lowest hanging. Each step you take |
Nanatoa
336
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Posted - 2013.10.18 10:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you're moving very valuable or irreplacable cargo, in addition to using a properly tanked, relatively agile, preferably cloakable industrial ship, try moving the first (or last) 2 jumps near a trade hub in the last couple of minutes before daily downtime, or the first minutes after downtime. "Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1349
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Posted - 2013.10.18 11:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
As long as you stay in connected highsec, use courier contracts with collateral. No effort or risk is required on your part, and if the hauler gets blown up, you get money. If you collateralize properly, you make more money than you would selling the items. |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
32
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Posted - 2013.10.18 13:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Take into consideration taht value of one tornado is about 70mil. Its alpha goes around 10k. About half of the cargo is dropped. So for every 140mil isk worth of cargo you intend to haul you should have on your ship at least 10k EHP not to become profitable gank target.
You might consider also that freighter guys never haul more than 1Bil of cargo. Try to scale it to your iterons EHP. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
193
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oska Rus wrote:Take into consideration taht value of one tornado is about 70mil. Its alpha goes around 10k. About half of the cargo is dropped. So for every 140mil isk worth of cargo you intend to haul you should have on your ship at least 10k EHP not to become profitable gank target.
You might consider also that freighter guys never haul more than 1Bil of cargo. Try to scale it to your iterons EHP.
Freighter guys often haul more than 1 bill. my 2 contracts today were to move 1.8 bill and 1.3 bill. both were moved within an hour. OP suicide ganking is not one of my hobbies but if i heard that someone had 700 mill in a t1 indie i would rush to my tornado and head after it asap. people are passive scanning ships around trade hubs all the time. The only challenge you presented with that loot pinata was the scooping of your loot after up popped.......way way way too much for a ship with that EHP. |
Vis Aldent
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.10.18 14:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Buzz Madullier wrote:http://i.imgur.com/9UC3Sgw.png
It was instant. 1 shot and I was dead. I didn't think people suicide ganked for so little and a mixture of just a whole bunch of modules that they would probably have trouble selling if they didn't know the market I was heading to. Well luckily they only got about 200mil worth of my cargo, but being new to the game, this put me back at square one.
Any tips on how to prevent this? I don't think any defense modules would of helped me since he did all my health in one shot.
I can't see your fitting right now, but the Transport ship Occator is more solid than the Iteron Mark V to carry previous cargo. That is not half the battle however. The Occator does cost more to run, and if losses are to be expected, an additional liability.
The first thing you did wrong was to try to move worthwhile items in a industrial ship with little to no defense. All industrial ships have weak defenses and are not meant to fight. Those ships are ideally meant to be escorted by reasonable defense.
The best solution to avoid suicide gankers is the choice of your trips in the mentioned industrial or transport ship.
Most of the T2 modules effiiciency can be achieve with lower end T1 modules for a fraction of the benefit which outweight the potential loss value. The only time those become useful is if you beat the competition by having them fitted which is less than the benefit percentage.
If you only contracts safe courier contracts and not the free public courier you can avoid most of the loss risk. The free public courier contract is a way for the competition to make money from Collateral. 1.2b + collaterals can be spotted from Locator Agents, and if you don't repack your Plastic Wraps, be targeted. Repackaging Plastic Wrap is time consuming and can not be worthwhile. Repackaging Plastic Wrap can allow you to use another pilot to hide the carrier. Repackaged Plastic Wrap cannot be scanned for content, which also sometimes triggers or leads to yet more enmities.
Again, the best solution to these problems is to choose safe cargo haul trips. The definition of Safe cargo haul being, safer than the free courier ganks ones. The cost of the loss mostly goes into the loss of collaterals. Expensive collaterals are most often required to acquire access to higher rewards, even in High Sec.
Freighter hauling losses can be even more devastating since it requires 3b ISK to even more initial costs + the training, freighter pilot costs.
1. You can more safely carry your own cargo than someone else's cargo. No one knows what you carry then since there is no contracts. They'd have to scan you or hunt for you via Locator Agents for that. Hauling with a high bounty of over 1b ISK can be dangerous.
Due to the cost of hauling, ships, fitting, learning, etc., it can be easier to subcontract hauling to someone else. I have never ever done it and never ever planned to do it but I am starting to consider it.
2. You can use a cloak in the high slot but I can't see if you did or not. 3. I don't see a Plastic Wrap in your Cargo so I can assume that it wasn't a Courier haul.
Do not go to low sec, which is more dangerous and has more gate camp. The same applies to Null sec. The only way to go there is to know by intelligence or other means what is to be expected to be dealt with.
I am busy calculating my internet costs compared to the relative ingame income to manage my hauler(s) / trader.
4. One of the way to make the most income from hauling / trading is to carry your own items for sale. I use a specialist trader to sell (or buy) my items when I can. It helps to increase the profit margin. All the losses and other costs have to be included in the ingame income to know the profit.
I have to buy most of my ship equipment and implants except for some reused loot. I sell my loot, salvage and mining (ore and/or Minerals) and extra ships if any.
(Almost forgot, you can get snippered by a Battleship with a Carrier hidden behind and on top the station to boost in low sec from up to 120km away in one shot. Possibly even in an Occator as well.) |
Mossyblog Barnes
RIAGENIC
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
As someone who is new and this week (on my alt) made approx 1.2bn ISK my advice is simple
Learn the Cloak Trick technique and learn it to the point it becomes second nature (even in High Sec - get used to the habit) At first try to haul low volume m3 until your skill books can get you closer to larger *tank* ships. Invest early in EVEMON skill plans and optimise your characters attributes to suite your plan (saves you days in learning etc). Now its all well and good for people to poke fun at you or mock your ship selection(s) when you start out, as its not as if you can rush the skill books. So you play with what hand your dealt and what skills you have. My advice is to keep the volume m3 low and avoid the 5000m3+ cargo(s) until you have more skills / experience as enticing as the profit margins are.
Should you manage to snipe a good deal that requires a large amount of cargo space, as others have said outsource it and factor the outsourcing into your profit margins. I made around 50m ISK and paid out about 20% of that and sitll walked away with a hefty profit margin (approx 43% from what EVE Mentat transactions tell me).
Low Sec = death. I've even had folks take pot shots at me in level 0.5 but 4 to 1 ... its just begging for the kill especially if people look at your character bio and see the time stamps as being "~1yr old" as that screams "I am taking a high risk, come see". I Lost 15m isk for trying to run the gauntlet ...i knew the risk but i did it anyway and I have had some wins on the board for playing with LowSec fire... just be prepared for your heartbeat to race and a lot "**** shit **** jump **** shit ****" moments.. Again don't attempt this until you have the Cloak trick working and definitely don't auto pilot..
Do not jump on a forum like this and let everyone know your character is hauling cargo. I specifically choose my fighter character to type this response on and not my hauler/courier... as you also may as well advertise to everyone in EVE your intent right now .. "Look i'm having issues, so if you see me in game, help me develop further issues'. The thing I have learnt so far about my EVE experience is that this is what the human population would be like 10yrs after the earths self destruction and how people have become detached from all forms of morality. This entire behavior has been specifically engineered by the games ability to basically abandon people once they level High Sec (but even then inside High sec players are still prone to scams etc).
Basically - Survival is for the fittest and right now, you don't look healthy (I myself don't either). So we need to build some muscle before we really see the ISK profits :)
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Kaivar Lancer
Metropolis Acquisition Services
332
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Posted - 2013.10.19 11:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sorry to hear that, OP.
I lost 1.4B isk while hauling in an Itty 4 a few years ago. Just like you, I learned the hard way. Always use courier contracts when hauling 100m+ worth of goods. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2168
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Posted - 2013.10.19 16:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vis Aldent wrote:Most of the T2 modules effiiciency can be achieve with lower end T1 modules for a fraction of the benefit which outweight the potential loss value. The only T2 module I use on a T1 industrial are cargo expanders. It doesn't make sense fitting millions of ISK of modules on a cheap and fragile Industrial hull. |
Vis Aldent
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Vis Aldent wrote:Most of the T2 modules effiiciency can be achieve with lower end T1 modules for a fraction of the benefit which outweight the potential loss value. The only T2 module I use on a T1 industrial are cargo expanders. It doesn't make sense fitting millions of ISK of modules on a cheap and fragile Industrial hull.
This is what you do and what you are suggesting.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=31117 Small Cargohold Optimization I - Market Browser - 546,000.06 https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Expanded_Cargohold_I
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=31123 Small Cargohold Optimization II - Market Browser - 9,880,000.00 https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Expanded_Cargohold_II
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ship_Equipment:Hull_&_Armor_:Hull_Upgrades:Expanded_Cargoholds
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=5489 Variations Group Name - Cargo Capacity - Velocity - Structure HP Tech I Expanded Cargohold I +18 % -15 % -25 % Beta Hull Mod Expanded Cargo +25 % -12 % -22 % Local Hull Conversion Expanded Cargo I +28 % -11 % -21 % Mark I Modified SS Expanded Cargo +20 % -14 % -24 % Type-D Altered SS Expanded Cargo +23 % -13 % -23 % Tech II Expanded Cargohold II +28 % -10 % -20 % Your solution gives 1% Velocity and 1% Structure HP for 9m risk of loss multiplied by the number of units. 5 units in the case of the 'Itty V'.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=5489 Local Hull Conversion Expanded Cargo I - Market Browser - 189,999.00 Meta IV (the best in fact). https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Local_Hull_Conversion_Expanded_Cargo_I Meta Level 4 Level
Almost forgot to mention: for the same cargo hold capacity in fact which is what those so called expander are intended to do.
+ ok, granted , the 45m difference may only be 5% or 10% of the potential loss risk but I wouldn't give my competition a 1% or -1% jump if I can. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
96
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Posted - 2013.10.20 00:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
What are you talking about? Industrials use medium rigs and it was clear he was talking about the low slot Expanded Carghold II modules which cost ~450k. .
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Vis Aldent
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.10.20 01:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:What are you talking about? Industrials use medium rigs and it was clear he was talking about the low slot Expanded Carghold II modules which cost ~450k.
You are right, I made an error on the price by putting the wrong equipment item. I meant to include the Expanded Cargohold II and not the Small Cargohold Optimization II. It would have been too easy for me not to make a mistake...
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=1317 Expanded Cargohold I - Market Browser - 2,949.98 https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Expanded_Cargohold_I
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=1319 Expanded Cargohold II - Market Browser - 425,000.00 https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Expanded_Cargohold_II
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ship_Equipment:Hull_&_Armor_:Hull_Upgrades:Expanded_Cargoholds
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=5489 Variations Group Name - Cargo Capacity - Velocity - Structure HP Tech I Expanded Cargohold I +18 % -15 % -25 % Beta Hull Mod Expanded Cargo +25 % -12 % -22 % Local Hull Conversion Expanded Cargo I +28 % -11 % -21 % Mark I Modified SS Expanded Cargo +20 % -14 % -24 % Type-D Altered SS Expanded Cargo +23 % -13 % -23 % Tech II Expanded Cargohold II +28 % -10 % -20 % Your solution gives 1% Velocity and 1% Structure HP for 9m risk of loss multiplied by the number of units. 5 units in the case of the 'Itty V'.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=5489 Local Hull Conversion Expanded Cargo I - Market Browser - 189,999.00 Meta IV (the best in fact). https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Local_Hull_Conversion_Expanded_Cargo_I Meta Level 4 Level
So it is a 1.18m difference instead of 45m. Worth the two 1%s and change with multiples. The trade off being less than the percent gained.
751m x 1% = 7.51m. |
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Freakdevil
Aliastra Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.10.20 03:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
It happens. Learn to be aware of the gank points (0.5-0.7). In some locations nothing will stop a determined ganker no matter how much tank you use.
Play it smart. User Courier contracts when you can. Don't be a victim. |
Buzz Madullier
The Essence of Nike
5
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks again everyone for the replies. Apparently there are many choices I could of made on how to move my stuff without taking the risk of doing it myself. Should of done more research. Hopefully with all that you guys have said it won't happen again. |
Nom de Guerre
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.10.22 16:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:I'd also like to add some advice for you...
...Imagine two freighters flying through space, both passing a pirate looking for a kill, the pirate instantly sees one freighter is running active tanky modules from the graphical effects, the other is not. Which freighter do you think is going to get further attention from the pirate? Which one would you rather be? ... Where can I get these active tanky modules for my freighter?
(Yes, I know I'm being an a$$ to call you on this little slip-up. That's why I didn't post on my main.) |
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