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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.01.31 10:05:00 -
[1]
Some of the older players in Eve will remember a time when there was no restriction on the size of missile you could shoot from any launcher. Back in these days you'd see cruisers firing torpedoes and it wouldn't really surprise anyone.
But back then, missiles hit for 100% damage all the time, so CCP eventually decided this was too unfair and limited each launcher type to just one size of missile.
But today, missiles don't hit for 100% damage all the time. Fire a cruise missile at an interceptor and you'll be lucky to do 25 HP damage, even with top skills and several damage mods.
This has created an umbalance : in PVE it now takes more missiles to kill a frigate than to kill a cruiser. And we can no longer vary our charges to fit the target.
I agree that cruise-missile-kestrels are a bad thing, but I think launchers should be able to fire any type of missile SMALLER than their intended missile type.
i.e. heavy launcher should also be able to fire standard missiles and rockets. Siege should be able to fire everything except for Citadel torps.
I do not think this is unreasonable anymore. It would be nothing more than what is already allowed on guns :
Guns have 8 types of ammo, not counting tech II ammo. Missiles only exist in 4 flavors and the only thing that changes is the damage type, not the range.
Some will say : use tech II missiles to deal with frigates, and good old cruise missiles to deal with BS's... but have you seen the cost of tech II missiles ?
I don't see why small missiles shouldn't be allowed in large launchers. After all, this feature even comes with its own penalty : you may fire smaller missiles, but the RoF is that of the large launcher.
Anyone agree ?
Helen
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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:38:00 -
[2]
Well... I was so sure people would agree with me on this one...
Helen
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Rodge
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:55:00 -
[3]
It has not created an imbalance at all.
You say that if you fire a cruise missile at an interceptor, you will hit for 25HP if you're lucky?
Try firing any large gun at an interceptor that's orbitting you, with any ammo you choose, and see how much damage you do.
That's not even mentioning the extreme imbalance that is the precision cruise/heavy missiles. Full damage on frigates again, at any range with no chance of missing, for practically no penalty...
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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CaptainSeafort
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Posted - 2006.02.01 00:15:00 -
[4]
i tink allowing use of the one class below (ie cruises can use heavys, heavys can use lites etc) makes sense, but beyond that, i haveta agree with the above
"Planets and moons no longer hitch rides on player ships. Their towel privileges have been revoked." HHGG Lives on in EVE! |
Jon Anser
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Posted - 2006.02.01 05:07:00 -
[5]
How bout a cruse missle or torp sized thing that launches a pod that launches a whole bunch of fof rockets or fof standard missles. that's be sweet. maby the missles launch when they get to the spot whare the target was Teh Goose is teh PWn |
3MTA3
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Posted - 2006.02.01 08:22:00 -
[6]
If they did this then I want Guns to work the same.
Be nice to fit Small Antimater in my 425mm - II to pop frigates that get close.
Only fair.
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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.02.01 09:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rodge It has not created an imbalance at all.
You say that if you fire a cruise missile at an interceptor, you will hit for 25HP if you're lucky?
Try firing any large gun at an interceptor that's orbitting you, with any ammo you choose, and see how much damage you do.
That's not even mentioning the extreme imbalance that is the precision cruise/heavy missiles. Full damage on frigates again, at any range with no chance of missing, for practically no penalty...
Good point, I did forget that missiles still hit at any range and large guns do not. Sorry about that.
Also, I haven't yet tried precision cruise missiles, I just found them too expensive. I think I'll give them a try sometime but if indeed they hit frigates for full damage then your point is solid.
Originally by: Jon Anser How bout a cruse missle or torp sized thing that launches a pod that launches a whole bunch of fof rockets or fof standard missles. that's be sweet. maby the missles launch when they get to the spot whare the target was
There's already a thread about cluster torpedoes, to which I have been contributing :
Bloodclaw Torpedo
I consider them overkill. Read on to see why (I put in some calculations)
Helen
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.02.01 10:36:00 -
[8]
I still say there IS an imbalance...there exists a set of circumstances where a battleship with large turrets can pop a frigate in a single volley. There is no such set of circumstances for a battleship equipped with cruise missiles or torpedoes. Yes, the missiles always hit, but when the damage is so low that the target can tank it forever, who cares?
And to say that the precision cruise are a viable option when they cost more than the ship you are firing them at is just laughable... --- Ha! Vote me for top forum ***** |
Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.02.01 11:00:00 -
[9]
Only way to kill a frigate with one volley of large guns is if that frigate is 100km away so your tracking speed penalty is zero. I know a lot about that, considering I've once been a sniper Apoc pilot for over a year.
I don't know much about PvP though, but I doubt a frigate could tank a cruise Raven. NPC's sure can't. Granted, it still takes quite a few missiles to kill one, but I got news for ya : Ravens also have two slots for large turrets.
Mine are fitted with tech II megabeams and they can half-kill an inty long before it gets close enough to scramble me. The missiles take care of the rest. And then we have these little helpers called DRONES.
Granted, tech II missiles are expensive. TBH I don't think they'll ever be successful until they drop down in price considerably. This is AMMO, guys... I know I shoot missiles by the thousands on an average mission day... tech II ammo would ruin me.
But when tech II missiles DO come down in price then everything will be back the way it was : frigates will get pwn'd by cruise Ravens. Booya.
And if it never happens, then let us fire smaller missiles.
Or I could just do every mission in two passes :
- Fit my raven with assault launchers and go kill all the frigs. - Refit with cruise launchers and finish the mission.
Stupid and boring, but doable today.
Helen
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MrJordanIOI
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Posted - 2006.02.01 13:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: 3MTA3 If they did this then I want Guns to work the same.
Be nice to fit Small Antimater in my 425mm - II to pop frigates that get close.
Only fair.
They would shoot the smaller ammo but they d still track like ****. So if thats kept then I d even go with your fit smaller projectile ammo ;)
IOI
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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.02.01 14:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: MrJordanIOI
Originally by: 3MTA3 If they did this then I want Guns to work the same.
Be nice to fit Small Antimater in my 425mm - II to pop frigates that get close.
Only fair.
They would shoot the smaller ammo but they d still track like ****. So if thats kept then I d even go with your fit smaller projectile ammo ;)
IOI
I may have a solution : buckshot rounds.
We all know what makes shotguns specific : the ammo spreads out so it's not too much of a problem to hit something even if you lack accuracy.
buckshot rounds would reduce the penalty to large turret tracking speed and at the same time the target would take only limited damage since only part of the shrapnel hits it... so you get the same damage-nerfing effect that with missile explosion velocity.
Helen
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BrerLapin
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Posted - 2006.02.01 16:11:00 -
[12]
Or you could just fit a smaller gun
Rockets are simply an ammunition. I agree with the OP, Rockets are never used beyond friagte class or the Flycatcher & thats a shame.
Originally by: Market Scanner Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Yurameki Daishun
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Posted - 2006.02.01 17:39:00 -
[13]
I agree, but the problem is size is an issue, there'd have to be some cost for it, to modify a gun to shoot a smaller item through it's bore without damaging the gun or fouling all the shots isn't easy. and yea it applies equally to missiles.
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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Yurameki Daishun I agree, but the problem is size is an issue, there'd have to be some cost for it, to modify a gun to shoot a smaller item through it's bore without damaging the gun or fouling all the shots isn't easy. and yea it applies equally to missiles.
I suppose you've never heard of a real-life gizmo called a discardable sabot ?
Linkage
This technology allows real-life tanks to fire a 40mm shell from a 120mm gun.
Translated to EVE technology it could certainly apply to any turret type, missile launchers included.
Helen
Originally by: Kittamaru Bravo Helen! Good show old chap! Never seen someone do their research before disproving another's point!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID= |
Yurameki Daishun
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Helen Tiger
Originally by: Yurameki Daishun I agree, but the problem is size is an issue, there'd have to be some cost for it, to modify a gun to shoot a smaller item through it's bore without damaging the gun or fouling all the shots isn't easy. and yea it applies equally to missiles.
I suppose you've never heard of a real-life gizmo called a discardable sabot ? Linkage
This technology allows real-life tanks to fire a 40mm shell from a 120mm gun.
Translated to EVE technology it could certainly apply to any turret type, missile launchers included.
Helen
actually I have but with most guns it wouldn't work, it's designed for a specific type of barrel, and it's a lot more complex than that.
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Helen Tiger
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Yurameki Daishun
actually I have but with most guns it wouldn't work, it's designed for a specific type of barrel, and it's a lot more complex than that.
No it's not. This type of shell has been developped and used by ALL capable armies the instant they were invented. That even includes Varsaw Pact tanks, even though they use non-STANAG (NATO standard) gun calibers and ammo styles (two-piece shells instead of cartridge type)
Read the article I linked to, it explains exactly what the sabot does and how. Then if you have any idea how a gun does its job, you'll see you can fire subcaliber shells from any gun.
By the way : on real-life experimental railguns almost ALL shells have a sabot (a.k.a armature), as in their case the sabot acts as a way for the shell to make electrical contact with the rails that provide power.
A real-life railgun - lo and behold
In that case, what's to prevent you from making a sabot as large as you need to fit the caliber of your railgun ?
Helen
Originally by: Kittamaru Bravo Helen! (...) Never seen someone do their research before disproving another's point!
ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=287902&page=1#12 |
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