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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
4126
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Posted - 2013.10.21 13:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
And another completely redundant thread with lots of redundant posts... |
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CCP Falcon
4235
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Posted - 2013.10.21 14:05:00 -
[32] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:#DEATH2ALLFALCONS
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Atlantis Fuanan
Uncharted Skies Cerberus Unleashed
43
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Posted - 2013.10.21 14:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
It's always wonderfull to see the suggestion "Counter it with ECCM". But what does this mean? 1st you have to expect atleast one faclon in the other team. 2nd (depending on ship) will loose a utility. But hey let's look at other ewars: Tarpet Painter .... Make smaller Signature by Fitting accordingly / Shoot the painting ship Target Disruption .... Target Computer / Shoot the disrupting ship Warp Scrambler/Disruptor .... Adjust fitting / Shoot the scrambling/disrupting ship / Build up range Stasis Webifier .... Fit props / Shoot the webbing ship / Build up range (...) ECM .... Fit ECCM / Shoot if you CAN (Jam failed + Locking Successfull + in range) I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see. Do you see it? Things that would make EVE better: NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ |
Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
510
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Posted - 2013.10.21 15:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers Version 1.0.3 10/21/13 By: Aliventi A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.
If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.
In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.
Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.
One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.
"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?
Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6. Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.
See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*
You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.
All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship: Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming
That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.
Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?
EC-300 drone strength is 1. Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming
EC-600 drone strength is 1.5. Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming
Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True: (How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)
5 EC-300 jam strength 1: vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.
5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5: vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.
You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that? "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
277
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Posted - 2013.10.21 15:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
It recruits an Ishtar pilot for its gang, or it gets the jam again.
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Seraph Essael
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
134
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Posted - 2013.10.21 15:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Sensor Damp Ship Vs. Jamming Ship... Counter ECM with an ECM boat of your own... If he can't lock you, he can't target you with specific ECM...
Or use ECM drones on him (Don't know if that one works)...
Or many of the other in game mechanics designed to stop a Falcon. They are not indestructible you know Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
SoldierSister
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.10.21 15:35:00 -
[37] - Quote
The trolling skills are high in this one!!!!!
If you wondering why Maliandra also started a post around the same time here :-
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288549&find=unread
asking for hi sec to be nerfed. in that post they stated they only really stay in high sec...
So WTF is this post about not seen any carebears doing mining or lvl 4's in a falcon
lets nerf falcon because some people know how to use them.
I wonder who your main really is |
Antihrist Pripravnik
Paravan Korporacija
96
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Posted - 2013.10.21 15:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
The problem with "Nerf Falcon" threads is that they are mostly written by those who don't fly Falcons. Those who fly Falcons know just how many downsides that ship already has. CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic |
Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
572
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:It's always wonderfull to see the suggestion "Counter it with ECCM". But what does this mean? 1st you have to expect atleast one faclon in the other team. 2nd (depending on ship) will loose a utility. But hey let's look at other ewars: Tarpet Painter .... Make smaller Signature by Fitting accordingly / Shoot the painting ship Target Disruption .... Target Computer / Shoot the disrupting ship Warp Scrambler/Disruptor .... Adjust fitting / Shoot the scrambling/disrupting ship / Build up range Stasis Webifier .... Fit props / Shoot the webbing ship / Build up range (...) ECM .... Fit ECCM / Shoot if you CAN (Jam failed + Locking Successfull + in range) I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see. Do you see it?
I do! I do!
"fit accordingly" isn't it? This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
what it tells me is Tengu's tank is ridiculously OP and neut legions should have drones Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
572
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
I like target breakers. Nano fitted cruisers seem to do really well with these also.
AAAAAnnndddd, target breakers work on EVERYONE (friend and foe) but thankfully falcon pilots and other jammers prefer to make things easier by being conveniently out of range. This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
437
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
So a group of PvE fit RR Tengu's got jammed out by a falcon pilot with skills/fit unknown.
Definitely a good fight to use as an example for ECM balance. Not today spaghetti. |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Time and all Eternity HumAnnoyeD
90
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Posted - 2013.10.21 16:20:00 -
[43] - Quote
ECCM
Its not CCPs fault you don't use the Anti-ECM module that they provided for you. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! |
Atomic Virulent
Dark Matter Industrial
112
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Posted - 2013.10.21 18:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin is that you??
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Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
276
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Posted - 2013.10.21 19:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
I invested alot of my time to be a perfectly skilled Falcon pilot, and ever since the ship was first released CCP has nerfed it repeatedly into the ground. So from the bottom of my heart, **** you all.
If you have a problem with this, come talk to me. I'll be waiting, with a falcon and a smile. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3531
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:It's always wonderfull to see the suggestion "Counter it with ECCM". But what does this mean? 1st you have to expect atleast one faclon in the other team. 2nd (depending on ship) will loose a utility. But hey let's look at other ewars: Tarpet Painter .... Make smaller Signature by Fitting accordingly / Shoot the painting ship Target Disruption .... Target Computer / Shoot the disrupting ship Warp Scrambler/Disruptor .... Adjust fitting / Shoot the scrambling/disrupting ship / Build up range Stasis Webifier .... Fit props / Shoot the webbing ship / Build up range (...) ECM .... Fit ECCM / Shoot if you CAN (Jam failed + Locking Successfull + in range) I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see. Do you see it?
What about drones and FOF.
(runs away quickly) |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
337
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
You ALLOWED a falcon do own you.
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1252
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
I've always said that if you think ECM is overpowered, then you haven't mixed it up with anyone who is good at sensor damps. Much, much worse, just not as binary, so it doesn't feel as bad. And that's what all the Falcon hate is, after all, feelings.
Feelings are by definition not rational thoughts. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Garandras
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
15
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
You see a falcon on Feild.. you lock it up send drones at it, force it off grid get back to killing.. |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
23
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Posted - 2013.10.21 20:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
lol this guy must be new. ECM (jammers) use to be much stronger, and that was BEFORE the sensor skills that give you a massive boost and BEFORE a lot of ships got a serious increase to their sensor strength. You have no idea how much balancing they have done to ECM, and quite honestly it's pretty fair as it is right now. What DOES need a bit of a fix is ECM jamming drones since you can exploit them by the engage/callback/engage trick. Beyond that ECM from jams to TP and tracking disruption is all fine. |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
754
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Posted - 2013.10.21 21:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Atlantis Fuanan wrote:I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see. Do you see it? I do! I do! "fit accordingly" isn't it? Yep.
HTFU to the effing ECM whiners.
Garandras wrote:You see a falcon on Feild.. you lock it up send drones at it, force it off grid get back to killing.. NO NO NONO!
You're missing the point, it shouldn't be up to players to "adapt" or "adjust" their strategy! DEVS should do it *FOR THEM*! Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation Boarderline Cartel
1378
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Maliandra wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzR0tEXjhA
As you can see a single falcon was able to keep the majority of the gang target jammed
Blah blah blah. Falcon has already been nerfed. I bet you haven't trained up your Sensor Compensation skills. Too bad. Wait you just want to keep nerfing ECM until it is completely useless, right? Stop crying, get a more pro gang, fit ECCM and/or move on. When you do kill a falcon it really hurts the owner. God knows I've lost enough on my falcon alt. They're not that cheap. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Lo-Ball Incorporated Backwater Aristocrats
26
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:#DEATH2ALLFALCONS
We Love ya CCP Falcon :) |
Shirakus
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
Solution: uncloak your own falcon, jam theirs. Or, uncloak damp fit arazu, lockrange damp falcon. Or, reload to FoF missiles, kill falcon.
See? In less than 2 minutes I came up with 3 viable solutions to the perceived issue with "overpowered" falcon. Adapt and overcome instead of crying for nerfs. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
480
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:... #DEATH2ALLFALCONS I hope for your sake you forgot to add 'in-game'. Because don't you dare touch our Falcon!...
ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Baali Tekitsu
State Protectorate Caldari State
71
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:47:00 -
[56] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:... #DEATH2ALLFALCONS I hope for your sake you forgot to add 'in-game'. Because don't you dare touch our Falcon!...
I actually meant best wishes to all falcons GÖÑ XOXO goddamn autocorrect *cough cough* |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
228
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
last time I saw a falcon on field it tried for quite some time to jam my non ECCM fit malediction, it completely failed and ran off leaving his friend to die.
So since only one example is enough (as evident by the op) then we must conclude that the falcon needs a buff when it cant even jam one single inty with no ECCM mods. |
Baali Tekitsu
State Protectorate Caldari State
71
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Posted - 2013.10.21 22:54:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lady Naween wrote:last time I saw a falcon on field it tried for quite some time to jam my non ECCM fit malediction, it completely failed and ran off leaving his friend to die.
So since only one example is enough (as evident by the op) then we must conclude that the falcon needs a buff when it cant even jam one single inty with no ECCM mods.
I would say that Falcon had not a single Amarr jammer, otherwise you would have been permajammed for the rest of the fight. |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society
1822
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Posted - 2013.10.21 23:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
So, just watched this. These guys took on 5 RR Tengus with very little dps. Who does that WITHOUT taking a Falcon? It only has 5 jammers, if the Scorpion pilot hadn't logged they would have had a lot more trouble. Additionally, the Tengus clearly weren't permajammed, nor were they ever jamming all of them at once all of the time. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
936
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Posted - 2013.10.22 00:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
yeah, but those are logical, reasonable conclusions.
the OP isn't interested in logic or reason. |
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