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Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is there some reason why EVE does not use stick and rudder space flying? Yes I realize that there is no Air/Oxygen in space but that does not mean the afterburners/Microwarpdrives could not be directional.
To me it would cause a great many more technical battles to occur
Just my thoughts. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
35
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Try doing more frigate fights. Most larger ship battles do not depend on maneuvering well. Do you more frig fights and begin to learn the glory of manual piloting in eve |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:Try doing more frigate fights. Most larger ship battles do not depend on maneuvering well. Do you more frig fights and begin to learn the glory of manual piloting in eve
Ok but your talking about pointing in space and doing double clicks. I am talking about holding down keys for your movement. the longer you hold down the key the more you move in the direction. Same if you had a key for momentum or speed. The turning radius of your ship would show a slower change due to the size ofthe ship.
The space battles would depend more on the individual than the warp in of the ship. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
65
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
The server tick is too slow to handle live input from a stick and it would pretty much make the hamsters commit suicide. |
Abrazzar
271
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Real time movement would require a large amount of server updates from and to the client. The resulting traffic would be infeasible to maintain.
Though I would like to see a somewhat better method of manoeuvring in space than double clicking somewhere and the orbit, approach and keep at range commands.
Edit: Maybe make a compromise and allow tick time based keyboard/mouse/joystick movement. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
XIRUSPHERE wrote:The server tick is too slow to handle live input from a stick and it would pretty much make the hamsters commit suicide.
But isnt each players position already being calculated so that damage and movement and distance is calculated?
The dialation process that is being discussed should be able to handle the additional input of keystrokes / second or faster. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
mkint
240
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
This idea is, and always has been pants-on-head-ruhtarded. No, your idea is not unique. It's still just as stupid an idea as when everyone else has posted it. Learn the basic game mechanics. Do the tutorials. THEN make stupid suggestions here. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
35
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hung TuLo wrote:Karl Planck wrote:Try doing more frigate fights. Most larger ship battles do not depend on maneuvering well. Do you more frig fights and begin to learn the glory of manual piloting in eve Ok but your talking about pointing in space and doing double clicks. I am talking about holding down keys for your movement. the longer you hold down the key the more you move in the direction. Same if you had a key for momentum or speed. The turning radius of your ship would show a slower change due to the size ofthe ship. The space battles would depend more on the individual than the warp in of the ship.
lol, just because you aren't used to it doesn't make it different. If you don't understand what I mean when i say there is a large degree of manual control in frig fights then you obviously haven't done many of them. Point and click is one thing, but range management and adaptability especially when it comes to control while OH'ing is huge. Again, not a huge thing in larger ship fights and even less of a big thing in fleet battles.
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Ferrenc
TRIGGER FINGER - E.O.D Gryphon League
2
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
please forgive my ignorance on this one, but why cant ccp just buy a bunch of new hardware? is that not the problem? why cant lag be solved that way? if someone could give me like a really brief explaination of this it would be much appreciated |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
mkint wrote:This idea is, and always has been pants-on-head-ruhtarded. No, your idea is not unique. It's still just as stupid an idea as when everyone else has posted it. Learn the basic game mechanics. Do the tutorials. THEN make stupid suggestions here.
Mate, Not usre what is up your arse but I ve been playing this game for over a year. I PVP on a constant basis. I'm not going to lower myself to your level. YOu need to learn some manners. There are never stupid questions unless someone is trying to troll.
So be a good boy and leave the adults to answering the questions. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
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gfldex
28
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hung TuLo wrote: But isnt each players position already being calculated so that damage and movement and distance is calculated?
Yes it is, once per second. The client is smoothing things out to give you the impression of proper movement.
Hung TuLo wrote: The dialation process that is being discussed should be able to handle the additional input of keystrokes / second or faster.
It's just a different way to handle all the timers in game in the same manner. |
Stan Smith
Remenent British Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
this was a bad idea back in 2005 when i joined. nothing has changed. and no there is no way to get a bridge view from your ship |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
35
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ferrenc wrote:please forgive my ignorance on this one, but why cant ccp just buy a bunch of new hardware? is that not the problem? why cant lag be solved that way? if someone could give me like a really brief explaination of this it would be much appreciated
CCP has a supercomputer class set of processing power. Quite literally, millions of calculations/sec have to be processed when there are hundreds of ships in a system engaged. Every ship's velocity, position, EHP, DPS, cap, etc etc has to be calculated with regard to every other ship on grid.
And that does not even touch on the network bandwidth issues they are facing handling traffic from all over the world to simulate instantaneous fighting.
So no, they can't buy new hardware. |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Hung TuLo wrote: But isnt each players position already being calculated so that damage and movement and distance is calculated?
Yes it is, once per second. The client is smoothing things out to give you the impression of proper movement. Hung TuLo wrote: The dialation process that is being discussed should be able to handle the additional input of keystrokes / second or faster.
It's just a different way to handle all the timers in game in the same manner.
Thanks mate, I realize there are an additional number of things to think of, was just wondering.
"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:Hung TuLo wrote:Karl Planck wrote:Try doing more frigate fights. Most larger ship battles do not depend on maneuvering well. Do you more frig fights and begin to learn the glory of manual piloting in eve Ok but your talking about pointing in space and doing double clicks. I am talking about holding down keys for your movement. the longer you hold down the key the more you move in the direction. Same if you had a key for momentum or speed. The turning radius of your ship would show a slower change due to the size ofthe ship. The space battles would depend more on the individual than the warp in of the ship. lol, just because you aren't used to it doesn't make it different. If you don't understand what I mean when i say there is a large degree of manual control in frig fights then you obviously haven't done many of them. Point and click is one thing, but range management and adaptability especially when it comes to control while OH'ing is huge. Again, not a huge thing in larger ship fights and even less of a big thing in fleet battles.
Hi Karl, I understand exactly what you are saying. With the rifter you are doing alot. I get that, really I do. IT would just seem alot smoother experience with a stick and rudder control system. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
139
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Basically you want control using WASD. I fully support this. Double clicking in space is lame and while doable not better than WASD. Anybody saying that this would cause server lag/issues, whatever...is full of ****. Last time I checked Star Trek online does it and it worked fine. In fact every other space MMO I have ever played has done it. Not to mention it really isn't any different than MMO's that are on the ground doing the same thing. They seem to have no problem. Calling out CCP for being lazy on this one. Make both methods an option at all times...problem solved.
+1 Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Syrinx Verrall
Xeno Labs
0
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
You're the captain of the ship, not it's helmsman. The physics engine was built with that in mind, and thus is unsuitable for stick and rudder stuff due to years and years worth of design decisions going in a different direction.
I'm sure they could cram it in there if they really wanted to, but it would end up a half-assed feature that doesn't fit the game.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
191
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Also ships in eve use gravity pull drives, those vents do not contrinbute to ship speed but to ship cooling instead. |
mkint
240
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Because you suck at properly filing stuff (bad ideas should be in F&I, not GD) let's give you a less trolling answer. Server cycles are 1 Hz. That's 1 tick per second. In other words, EVERYONE always has a minimum of 1 second lag. Stick and rudder controls require there be pretty close to zero lag. Also consider, in a system that often lags out with only a 1hz cycle, what would happen if you added a CONSTANT stream of motion calculations to it? Not only is it a stupid idea from a game mechanics perspective (i.e., do the tutorials before you post stupid ideas in the wrong forums), it is absolutely impossible from a technical perspective. And no, buying new server hardware will not help... CCP has stated that millions of dollars of new hardware will grant almost no improvements (thus they have a whole team who's sole full time job is to optimize software to improve performance.) |
seany1212
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
21
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Basically you want control using WASD. I fully support this. Double clicking in space is lame and while doable not better than WASD. Anybody saying that this would cause server lag/issues, whatever...is full of ****. Last time I checked Star Trek online does it and it worked fine. In fact every other space MMO I have ever played has done it. Not to mention it really isn't any different than MMO's that are on the ground doing the same thing. They seem to have no problem. Calling out CCP for being lazy on this one. Make both methods an option at all times...problem solved.
+1
EVE is not star trek, and from what i was aware the last star trek MMO i heard of was getting shut down... If you want WASD keys go look for another game.
The server would lag as it would have to measure from the point at which you start turning from one key to the point at which you stopped pressing it, its not the same as a mouse click where all thats sent to the server is the new heading. So for you saying everyone else complaining is full of ****, get a clue first. |
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Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
11
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
mkint wrote:Because you suck at properly filing stuff (bad ideas should be in F&I, not GD) let's give you a less trolling answer. Server cycles are 1 Hz. That's 1 tick per second. In other words, EVERYONE always has a minimum of 1 second lag. Stick and rudder controls require there be pretty close to zero lag. Also consider, in a system that often lags out with only a 1hz cycle, what would happen if you added a CONSTANT stream of motion calculations to it? Not only is it a stupid idea from a game mechanics perspective (i.e., do the tutorials before you post stupid ideas in the wrong forums), it is absolutely impossible from a technical perspective. And no, buying new server hardware will not help... CCP has stated that millions of dollars of new hardware will grant almost no improvements (thus they have a whole team who's sole full time job is to optimize software to improve performance.)
Ah now that is a better answer. You still have a problem with attitude. but better answer. Also how do you know if I "SUCK at properly flying stuff" have you ever seen my fly? I don't beleive I even know you.
So your still being a child. And thats ok. MOMMY still has alot of work to do with you doesn't she?
IF its technically impossible thats a great answer. I asked a simple question. I expected answers like I receivedfrom others. If its not posible its not possible. Just trying to understand why.
I wasnt asking for the great pumpkin to answer and immeadiatly remedy my question.
To all that did answer kindly I do appreciate it. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
31
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow, a lot of flametards on this thread...
All the technical reasons people are posting about why it isn't possible are bs. Of course CCP could solve the problem if they wanted to go in that way. They use WASD in WiS for example. It might require changing or supplementing the architecture a bit or maybe not, but it's certainly not impossible.
But, yeah, it probably wouldn't be a great idea because:
Syrinx Verrall wrote:You're the captain of the ship, not it's helmsman. The physics engine was built with that in mind, and thus is unsuitable for stick and rudder stuff due to years and years worth of design decisions going in a different direction.
I'm sure they could cram it in there if they really wanted to, but it would end up a half-assed feature that doesn't fit the game.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1132
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:All the technical reasons people are posting about why it isn't possible are bs. No, they're not. They're pretty harsh limitations on what the server hardware and bandwidth (and your hardware and bandwidth) can handle.
Quote:Of course CCP could solve the problem if they wanted to go in that way. No. Not unless they wanted to drop the whole GÇ£MMOGÇ¥ thing or massively shard and instance the whole thing, would would ruin one of the unique features of the game.
Quote:They use WASD in WiS for example. Fun fact: WiS is not multiplayer, and the server doesn't really have to do anything to handle it. The WASD part of WiS could be complete client-side for all the difference it makes to the game GÇö the flying in space cannot. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
31
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
mkint wrote:Stick and rudder controls require there be pretty close to zero lag.
No, that's not true. Most MMOs have lag of a second or more pretty regularly and use some form of WASD. They just have the local client adjust your apparent position smoothly and the server is up to a second behind. So, maybe the other ship will actually be calculating it's tracking based on your position and speed from 1 second ago and whatnot, but you wouldn't notice the difference. Like in WoW for example, sometimes if there is a race situation, like where you're running to cap a flag, it might look to you like you got there half a second before the other guy, but the other guy is the one who actually gets the flag. That's because your client is showing your position ahead of where the server thinks you are by whatever amount of lag you have, whereas you are seeing the other guy where the server thinks he is plus whatever amount of lag you have. Minor issues like that are unavoiadable, but that sort of thing is no big deal. This isn't a new problem. These issues have been solved many times in many different ways by hundreds of games. |
Gealbhan
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
55
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
OP: stick and rudder game for ya: http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-US/Games/Pages/FlightSimXAcceleration.aspx |
Jita Alt666
449
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:mkint wrote:Stick and rudder controls require there be pretty close to zero lag. No, that's not true. Most MMOs have lag of a second or more pretty regularly and use some form of WASD. They just have the local client adjust your apparent position smoothly and the server is up to a second behind. So, maybe the other ship will actually be calculating it's tracking based on your position and speed from 1 second ago and whatnot, but you wouldn't notice the difference. Like in WoW for example, sometimes if there is a race situation, like where you're running to cap a flag, it might look to you like you got there half a second before the other guy, but the other guy is the one who actually gets the flag. That's because your client is showing your position ahead of where the server thinks you are by whatever amount of lag you have, whereas you are seeing the other guy where the server thinks he is plus whatever amount of lag you have. Minor issues like that are unavoiadable, but that sort of thing is no big deal. This isn't a new problem. These issues have been solved many times in many different ways by hundreds of games.
How many other MMO's are single shard and have mechanics designed to support having over 1000 individual connections on one grid at a time?
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
192
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
or 9000 players
also how do you nose up or down up in a wasd? game? that be like wasd ijkl game instead. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1132
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:This isn't a new problem. These issues have been solved many times in many different ways by hundreds of games. GǪnone of which have had to deal with the issue on the scale required in EVE. That makes it a new problem. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
31
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Posted - 2011.11.02 19:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, they're not. They're pretty harsh limitations on what the server hardware and bandwidth (and your hardware and bandwidth) can handle.
No. Not unless they wanted to drop the whole GÇ£MMOGÇ¥ thing or massively shard and instance the whole thing, would would ruin one of the unique features of the game.
I think you're just identifying challenges they would face. Definitely operating in a single universe model presents challenges their developers would need to overcome, but that is a far cry from saying its impossible. I was a developer and then managed a team of developers for about 12 years and I don't recall ever encountering a technical issue we couldn't figure out a way to overcome. As long as there is a source of whatever data you need, you can pretty much always figure out how to architect a solution. Maybe they split off the position-related processing on to another cluster and have the two clusters only talk back and forth when needed, maybe they push more of the processing to client side, maybe they set up a bunch of different clusters all talking to the same central database, maybe they can just expand the size of the current cluster with more blades, maybe they segment off systems on to different clusters with inter-system stuff like updating market prices and whatnot on one main cluster, maybe they change the way they track position entirely to make it less intensive at the software level, maybe they make some database optimization they didn't need to previously. There are tons of possible areas the techies could explore possible solutions. I have no idea which ones would end up viable and which wouldn't. Nobody outside of CCP really would. But load just isn't the kind of problem that ever results in an "that's not possible" answer.
Tippia wrote:Fun fact: WiS is not multiplayer, and the server doesn't really have to do anything to handle it. The WASD part of WiS could be complete client-side for all the difference it makes to the game GÇö the flying in space cannot.
Yeah, they haven't rolled it out yet really, but obviously they think it is possible to do, right? |
SpaceSquirrels
9
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Posted - 2011.11.02 20:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Also that damage is really a dice roll. Yeah there are controllable variables, but at the end of the day you click shoot game decides if you hit and how much. So it's not like you can really dodge fire in he greater sense of things. Until you can really "aim" your own fire not a whole lot of point. |
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