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Saul Perry
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:14:00 -
[61] - Quote
Everyone hates this idea and everytime I see it suggested, everyone always does.
That said, I think many of you are wrong about all the 'lore' related reasons for not doing this.
Yes, you might be the captain and not the 'helmsman' but you are also a capsuleer, and your thoughts are supposed to translate into near immediate ship response. In other words you should be able to control the ship a lot more immediately than any captain relaying orders to a helmsman.
On that note, I have given conning orders on a warship (in RL) and I remember once, for fun, taking the helm when a buddy of mine had the watch. The whole time I was thinking -- geez, sometimes I wish I could just push the helmsman out of the way and do this myself. Impossible of course, as the bridge of most modern day warships doesn't afford the helmsman as good a perspective as the officer of the watch but still, sometimes it would be nice to have immediate control. And that's on a 4000 ton warship that reacts a lot slower than most ships in eve.
Speaking of this, many of the biggest ships in the world actually have helm controls on the bridge wings that the captain will use when coming alongside, going through tight passages, etc. In those situations, they want immediate control.
Again, there may be technical challenges in game for straightforward joystick control and I wouldn't want that anyways, as eve is not really a dogfighting game.
What I WOULD like, however, is a wider range of keyboard navigation commands, perhaps even complicated maneuvers.
Heck, there are plenty of times when I know I need transversal that I just end up fumbling around to change my heading at 90 degrees. even if the WASD keys just emulated mouse clicks at 30 degree variations.
So, if you needed to change heading 90 degrees to startboard, a quick triple press of d. I think stuff like that would allow reflexive heading changes while I am doing more important things with the mouse. |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
36
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tippia wrote:He said hundreds of transactions a second per player. So let's say 20,000,000 total. If so, that would an 800,000% increase
Oh lol. If that's what he meant, that's just absurd. It can't possibly exceed one transaction per second. That's how frequently CCP cycles. But presumably most players at any given time aren't in a ship moving around at all at any given time and most of those who are aren't adjusting their steering in any given second. So it would actually only be a fraction of a fraction of the number of players online at any given time. I think 500 players adjusting their steering per second is probably on the high side. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1148
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:Oh lol. If that's what he meant, that's just absurd. It can't possibly exceed one transaction per second. That's how frequently CCP cycles. I think that was the point: to get any kind of value out of a direct control scheme, you have to update your movement far more often, and transmit and process a massively increased amount of data, and that would just breakGǪ wellGǪ everything. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
36
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Fast-paced multiplayer games have player caps for a reason.
Yeah, no doubt. But I don't think anybody was suggesting that they make EvE into a fast paced multiplayer game. Ships in eve take seconds just to execute a turn and sometimes minutes to approach an object and whatnot. If CCP were to like totally scuttle the game and make a first person shooter style space combat element instead, yeah, that'd be a very different question, but that isn't the same thing. IMO implementing WASD would basically just make W a hotkey for double clicking straight in front of your ship, A for double clicking off to the left, etc. At least that's the idea I'm responding to, not like trying to make it into Descent or something. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
195
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:29:00 -
[65] - Quote
Also mind you i rather see other things first such as line of sight put into play for shooting instead of very cumbersome joystick control.
I am very sure I can spin click a spot in space extremly faster than any joy stick jockey ever could. |
baltec1
176
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Basically you want control using WASD. I fully support this. Double clicking in space is lame and while doable not better than WASD. Anybody saying that this would cause server lag/issues, whatever...is full of ****. Last time I checked Star Trek online does it and it worked fine. In fact every other space MMO I have ever played has done it. Not to mention it really isn't any different than MMO's that are on the ground doing the same thing. They seem to have no problem. Calling out CCP for being lazy on this one. Make both methods an option at all times...problem solved.
+1
If Star Trek Online ever had to handle a fight involving 200 ships it would melt. EVE has managed fights with 3000+.
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Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
36
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:37:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I think that was the point: to get any kind of value out of a direct control scheme, you have to update your movement far more often, and transmit and process a massively increased amount of data, and that would just breakGǪ wellGǪ everything.
Fair enough. I guess we're both describing two sides of the same coin maybe. I'm saying "sure it would be possible, but it would be lame" and you're saying "to make it not lame would be impossible". :) |
Syrinx Verrall
Xeno Labs
3
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Posted - 2011.11.02 23:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Saul Perry wrote:Everyone hates this idea and everytime I see it suggested, everyone always does.
That said, I think many of you are wrong about all the 'lore' related reasons for not doing this.
Yes, you might be the captain and not the 'helmsman' but you are also a capsuleer, and your thoughts are supposed to translate into near immediate ship response. In other words you should be able to control the ship a lot more immediately than any captain relaying orders to a helmsman.
True enough, but you're still issuing a command to 'go thattaway' rather than pushing a stick or turning a wheel until the ship is facing the way you want. A capsuleer is like a captain with an instantly responsive helmsman, but she's still a captain.
Still, lore-wise, a capsuleer should be able to tell the ship something along the lines of 'pitch up and yaw left at max rate until I say stop'.
Though given that all the damage system cares about is transverse velocity, evasive maneuvers kind of lose their charm.
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mkint
247
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:Tippia wrote:I think that was the point: to get any kind of value out of a direct control scheme, you have to update your movement far more often, and transmit and process a massively increased amount of data, and that would just breakGǪ wellGǪ everything. Fair enough. I guess we're both describing two sides of the same coin maybe. I'm saying "sure it would be possible, but it would be lame" and you're saying "to make it not lame would be impossible". :) I'm glad tippia is making my points for me, because I'm really not feeling eloquent today. :P
Adding shortcuts for double-clicking, based on camera position, might not be a bad idea, except I'm sure it'd just end up confusing rookies, send logi's veering off in random directions (already seems to happen lots anyway), and maybe get a lot of extra keyboard spam to the server. Not saying it's necessarily a bad idea. Better than direct stick/rudder anyway. Better than the existing awful "new shortcuts" by far. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
246
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:08:00 -
[70] - Quote
So could Eve become a "flight sim". Not likely for a whole ton of reason related to scaling and the underlying architcture of Eve.
Could Eve have an options joystick navigation UI? Definitely! I'd love it if it did! It could allow you to orient your ship like you can now by double clicking and I think would be a lot more intutive. You could even interface the extended buttons on most joysticks to do things like target cycling and other tasks already supported on the keyboard. Would it make Eve a twitch based space comabt game? Nope, same game, same ship movement speeds as before, just mapping what double click does now to the joystick.
Before someone shouts "that can't work!! Lag!! Sever blah blah blah blah! Bandwidth blah blah blah!" I am not saying anything between the client and server would change, just that the navigation input that you do now with the mouse and keyboard could be mapped to the joystick to make pointing your ship and moving it more intuitive. It would still happen a tick a second and be effectively the same as mouse and keyboard are now.
I know I'd love that as an option.
Issler |
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mkint
247
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So could Eve become a "flight sim". Not likely for a whole ton of reason related to scaling and the underlying architcture of Eve.
Could Eve have an options joystick navigation UI? Definitely! I'd love it if it did! It could allow you to orient your ship like you can now by double clicking and I think would be a lot more intutive. You could even interface the extended buttons on most joysticks to do things like target cycling and other tasks already supported on the keyboard. Would it make Eve a twitch based space comabt game? Nope, same game, same ship movement speeds as before, just mapping what double click does now to the joystick.
Before someone shouts "that can't work!! Lag!! Sever blah blah blah blah! Bandwidth blah blah blah!" I am not saying anything between the client and server would change, just that the navigation input that you do now with the mouse and keyboard could be mapped to the joystick to make pointing your ship and moving it more intuitive. It would still happen a tick a second and be effectively the same as mouse and keyboard are now.
I know I'd love that as an option.
Issler I don't think it would play how you think think it would play.
Firstly, it would still spam the server with commands. Not as many as direct control, but an additional 1 per second movement command that an orbit or keep at range command would not be issuing. That would add up in big fights.
Secondly, ignoring that, it would still take a fairly complicated implementation to make it feel right. Get in space in a big slow ship and start playing around with the movement physics. Do some warps, some aligning in various directions relative to your current vector, some stop commands, etc. It's a learning experience in itself. Mapping it so it *feels* like you're controlling the ship with your joystick would take some real tweaking. And the reward would ultimately be a less playable game (the whole point of joystick control is supposedly to control what's happening on the battlefield, except would require your perspective to be that reduces situational awareness.) Sounds like a bad investment to me. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
246
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
mkint wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:So could Eve become a "flight sim". Not likely for a whole ton of reason related to scaling and the underlying architcture of Eve.
Could Eve have an options joystick navigation UI? Definitely! I'd love it if it did! It could allow you to orient your ship like you can now by double clicking and I think would be a lot more intutive. You could even interface the extended buttons on most joysticks to do things like target cycling and other tasks already supported on the keyboard. Would it make Eve a twitch based space comabt game? Nope, same game, same ship movement speeds as before, just mapping what double click does now to the joystick.
Before someone shouts "that can't work!! Lag!! Sever blah blah blah blah! Bandwidth blah blah blah!" I am not saying anything between the client and server would change, just that the navigation input that you do now with the mouse and keyboard could be mapped to the joystick to make pointing your ship and moving it more intuitive. It would still happen a tick a second and be effectively the same as mouse and keyboard are now.
I know I'd love that as an option.
Issler I don't think it would play how you think think it would play. Firstly, it would still spam the server with commands. Not as many as direct control, but an additional 1 per second movement command that an orbit or keep at range command would not be issuing. That would add up in big fights. Secondly, ignoring that, it would still take a fairly complicated implementation to make it feel right. Get in space in a big slow ship and start playing around with the movement physics. Do some warps, some aligning in various directions relative to your current vector, some stop commands, etc. It's a learning experience in itself. Mapping it so it *feels* like you're controlling the ship with your joystick would take some real tweaking. And the reward would ultimately be a less playable game (the whole point of joystick control is supposedly to control what's happening on the battlefield, except would require your perspective to be that reduces situational awareness.) Sounds like a bad investment to me.
Cool, someone that has never done game development for a living making a lot or wrong assumptions. What I propose would not change server traffic in any way. The client would integrate the joystick input calculate the equivalent keyboard input to the server amd send it just like it was done on the keyboard. Slow to move ships will move slowly just like they do now.
This isn't a "magical Eve becomes flight sim experience". This is a joystick interface to a navigation console experience. All done client side with the same client to server command streams and feedback traffic that exists today. And commands only go out when there is a change needed so "not one every second". It might even be as simple as the joystick moves the camera with some "ghost reticle" of the ship outline and then the trigger selects the vector and commands the ship forward just like the double click on the mouse.
It isn't intended to feel like direct control, it is an alternative to camera control and flight vector/velocity selection that already exists today. I think it might be more intuitive. This would be a suppliment to the current ship navigation keyboard and mouse UI we have today.
Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean other folks wouldnt. So don't go overdesigning my suggested UI!
Issler
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
195
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:50:00 -
[73] - Quote
Why would I need a fighter pilot stick to fly a boat? |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
246
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Posted - 2011.11.03 00:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Why would I need a fighter pilot stick to fly a boat?
A joystick is generally considered a better input device for navigating a 3D space than a 2D device like a mouse.
Issler |
mkint
247
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Posted - 2011.11.03 01:11:00 -
[75] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Why would I need a fighter pilot stick to fly a boat? A joystick is generally considered a better input device for navigating a 3D space than a 2D device like a mouse. Issler A joystick is a 3D device? Pretty sure if you take one apart, you'll find only 2 potentiometers controlling the X and Y axis, i.e. 2 dimensions. Maybe you'll find a 3rd one or a switch controlling a twist in the z-axis on select models. Granted, it's been quite a few years since I took one apart to make a custom flight yoke, but I'm still fairly certain the technology hasn't been completely rewriten.
And you were accusing me of ignorance.
edit: a lot of joysticks also have a potentiometer for throttle, usually separate from the stick part of a joystick, sometimes on a completely separate device. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
195
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Posted - 2011.11.03 01:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
Last I checked most stellar naval vessels manually typed in heading verses current telemetry or used twin joysticks to on smaller ships. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
246
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Posted - 2011.11.03 01:30:00 -
[77] - Quote
mkint wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Why would I need a fighter pilot stick to fly a boat? A joystick is generally considered a better input device for navigating a 3D space than a 2D device like a mouse. Issler A joystick is a 3D device? Pretty sure if you take one apart, you'll find only 2 potentiometers controlling the X and Y axis, i.e. 2 dimensions. Maybe you'll find a 3rd one or a switch controlling a twist in the z-axis on select models. Granted, it's been quite a few years since I took one apart to make a custom flight yoke, but I'm still fairly certain the technology hasn't been completely rewriten. And you were accusing me of ignorance. edit: a lot of joysticks also have a potentiometer for throttle, usually separate from the stick part of a joystick, sometimes on a completely separate device.
Majority of joysticks today integrate yaw via twisting the stick so that is what I am referencing here. Throttle is also often included in some form which would map to ship velocity very well. They also almost always have some stick mounted buttons including a top "hat" switch whic could be usefull for camera control or other functions like weapons/target cycling.
So, yes, very much better for 3D nav than a mouse.
Issler |
Amro One
One.
24
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Posted - 2011.11.03 01:52:00 -
[78] - Quote
Your ship is controlled with your mind, hint the pod a matrix plug in on the neck.
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Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
36
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Posted - 2011.11.03 01:56:00 -
[79] - Quote
mkint wrote:[quote=Issler Dainze]A joystick is a 3D device? Pretty sure if you take one apart, you'll find only 2 potentiometers controlling the X and Y axis, i.e. 2 dimensions. Maybe you'll find a 3rd one or a switch controlling a twist in the z-axis on select models.
edit: a lot of joysticks also have a potentiometer for throttle, usually separate from the stick part of a joystick, sometimes on a completely separate device.
This little dohickey is kind of a 3d joystick. You can use it on it's own or use it with one hand while you use the mouse with your other hand. I got to play around with one that a co-worker had once and it was pretty cool. He used it with a mouse and basically just used the spacenavigator to provide the third dimension, but apparently you can use it alone for all three dimensions.
http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html |
SilentSkills
Estrale Frontiers
15
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Posted - 2011.11.03 02:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Also ships in eve use gravity pull drives, those vents do not contrinbute to ship speed but to ship cooling instead. cooling with what? |
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baltec1
176
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Posted - 2011.11.03 09:21:00 -
[81] - Quote
SilentSkills wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Also ships in eve use gravity pull drives, those vents do not contrinbute to ship speed but to ship cooling instead. cooling with what?
Space is a liquid. |
T-Jay Charante
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.11.03 11:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Only bads play EvE, introduce twitch based play and 90% of the population would quit. |
CausticS0da
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.03 12:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:Only bads play EvE, introduce twitch based play and 90% of the population would quit.
As if this thread wasn't already ridiculous enough, then someone says that...
FAtard OP is trying to destroy eve with his Wow/fps refugee disciples. The current control method is perfect IMO... Do some fleet pvp and this becomes abundantly clear.
Even if it could be done by CCP I wouldn't want it. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
195
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Posted - 2011.11.03 12:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
SilentSkills wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Also ships in eve use gravity pull drives, those vents do not contrinbute to ship speed but to ship cooling instead. cooling with what?
Forcible transmission of heat.
All of our reactors does create excess thermics that have to be handeled. Capacitors as well. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
195
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Posted - 2011.11.03 12:21:00 -
[85] - Quote
You want the ultimate lore reason why we dont have flight sticks.
Drum roll.....
We use thoughts to control the ship not flight sticks! |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
354
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Posted - 2011.11.03 13:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:Wow, a lot of flametards on this thread...
All the technical reasons people are posting about why it isn't possible are bs. Of course CCP could solve the problem if they wanted to go in that way. They use WASD in WiS for example. It might require changing or supplementing the architecture a bit or maybe not, but it's certainly not impossible.
Yes, and they can't get walking in stations to work properly with more than person.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
354
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Posted - 2011.11.03 13:18:00 -
[87] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:Only bads play EvE, introduce twitch based play and 90% of the population would quit.
Yes, and if you introduced point and click style gameplay into Call of Duty, 90% of its players would quit.
It's a case of horses for courses old chap, and the current control system is the perfect horse for the the Eve course. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
147
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Posted - 2011.11.03 13:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:SilentSkills wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Also ships in eve use gravity pull drives, those vents do not contrinbute to ship speed but to ship cooling instead. cooling with what? Space is a liquid.
lol...no... Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Di Mulle
23
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Posted - 2011.11.03 14:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:
Your argument would only be relevant if they were only serving one client. They have thousands of clients, so you have multiple clients per CPU. Add more CPUs, fewer clients per CPU.
Now your argument would be valid if CPU worked per set number of clients. Alas, it works per set number of solar systems. Are there one pilot, or 2000, it is still the same one CPU. Rewriting that will be way more work than optimizing database you talk so much.
Teamosil wrote:I don't think you followed what I'm saying. I'm saying the database could be perfectly optimized right now for double click based navigation, but it could be that a different optimization would be better for WASD. Again, that's something there is no way you or I could possibly know without being very deep in the code and database design.
And what exactly changes in a nature of stored data and the way you work with it, be it current system or WASD ? It is all the same essentially, just need to be performed n times more frequent.
Teamosil wrote:mkint wrote:The server can handle a maximum of 1 movement command per second. Adding WASD or especially stick/rudder would be throwing hundreds of movement command per second. From thousands of pilots. All on the same CPU. And trying to do the extra collisions and stuff that's generated on top of it. Hundreds of commands a second would be like a 10% increase in their load. If that. That's my point. They're already doing one set of transactions per second for every pilot in space, and I bet every pilot online. No, not all on the same CPU... Not sure where you get that idea from. They run a cluster of servers, each with two CPUs. The load is spread across all those. 120 CPUs last update I saw.
Again, all the pilots in one node are on the same one CPU. While I don't think transaction may increase dramatically - there is probably little point to go below 0.1 sec cycle because of an average ping, we still have about 10 times increase in updates sent, and certain calculations probably increase in a square way, making it up to 100 times. That is surely big enough number for a quite little gain.
I am in no way a database expert, but basic logic tells that there will be no specific optimization, because the very nature of processes remain the same - just their numbers increase. Or, in other words, optimization valid for current state is as well good for WASD.
Teamosil wrote: But presumably most players at any given time aren't in a ship moving around at all at any given time and most of those who are aren't adjusting their steering in any given second. About half of pilots seem to be docked at any given time and most those in space are mining or scanning or in warp or just sitting there chatting or waiting at a gate or whatever. And given that many ships take several seconds just to execute a single turn, you presumably wouldn't need to be making adjustments more than every few seconds even if you are really active about it. So it would actually only be a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the number of players online at any given time. I think 500 players adjusting their steering per second is probably on the high side.
Heh, for an expert you lacking some basic logic there again. It does not matter whether ship is changing steering or no. In order to "know" it, you still need to check for an input at every cycle.
And, btw, docked pilots do not count at that game. They are on completely different nodes. CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
95
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Posted - 2011.11.03 14:41:00 -
[90] - Quote
I don't see the Descent patch hitting live any time soon. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
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