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Kyle Sev
Brains of Britain
8
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Posted - 2013.10.27 04:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Saw this post on the mittani`s forum and it got me thinking. Would remaking SOV completly be better and how would you think it would be done?
Marlona Sky
It is pointless to build a new house on a foundation that is cracked and shattered. Practically all ideas in regards to fixing sovereignty only look as far as rebuilding a house on a broken foundation. I think the best course of action for us, if we really want to truly fix sovereignty, is to ask ourselves what results we would see across the null landscape (even FW because it does deal with territory control too) from a good system?
Keep in mind there will be many opinions about what they view would be good to see and another person would see that as bad. Just try and keep an open mind and don't be a **** about it.
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Frying Doom
2808
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Posted - 2013.10.27 05:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Would it not be more relevant to ask
How many GTCs do I have to buy to get Delve as a bonus?
Any spelling and grammatical errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4960
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 05:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
A large variety of different structures to shoot
A mix of timer types, some more random than others
and most importantly
Very in-depth mechanics that players will have to fully explore in order to engage with
Which is to say, structures, timers, convoluted There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.10.27 05:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
anti afk cloaks machines with a level of sov |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1520
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Posted - 2013.10.27 05:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yes, it needs to be completely rebuilt from scratch, with an eye to the fundamentals of MMO theory in general. Eve isn't the only game grappling with ideas like persistent universes, player controlled areas, mass warfare, etc. The first company to get it right will likely be at the forefront of the next generation of MMOs, despite what the "everybody wants tablet games with microtransactions for cookies" so-called game industry "experts" suggest. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4960
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 06:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
It needs more NPCs There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Laserak
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.10.27 06:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can dig it. Drop everyones sov and rework the whole thing.
Just make sure you do it in winter |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
829
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Posted - 2013.10.27 08:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
- almost every system in SOV 0.0 is claimed - people destroy lots of ships time by time in SOV 0.0 - map is still changing time by time
as long as these evidences present i see no point in changing SOV 0.0 system. What for? People don't like it but people use it.
Only when we will see lots of systems losing SOV because players leaving SOV 0.0 space and this space becoming empty - then it will be clear that time has come to change SOV system |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
2249
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:- almost every system in SOV 0.0 is claimed - people destroy lots of ships time by time in SOV 0.0 - map is still changing time by time
as long as these evidences present i see no point in changing SOV 0.0 system. What for? People don't like it but people use it.
Only when we will see lots of systems losing SOV because players leaving SOV 0.0 space and this space becoming empty - then it will be clear that time has come to change SOV system
"- everyone starts off alive -people are still alive during a TB outbreak -some people survive said TB outbreak
as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it.
Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB." Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1773
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
The idea of SOV in nullsec is somewhat of a paradox. You could argue that wormhole space is the final frontier. But I'd like to see nullsec more accessible to smaller groups of players. If Harry wants to put up a POS in VFK, he should be able to, even if it gets blown up immediately. SOV should be controlled by the players not the structures. If you don't want someone to put up a POS in "your" space, I think you should have to blow them up instead of relying on SOV structures. Sure, ultimately it's the players who put up the structures and defend them, but the current mechanics favor large groups. And no, I don't think NPC null solves any of this.
I'm not saying change the existing mechanics for the current space. Instead, open up a new area of null with different rules. Add to that NPC factions that actively gain and lose control of space. I'm sure some sort of creative storyline/lore could explain the difference.
I'd also like to see high sec and low sec opened up more to player involvement in the policing of space. Additionally, Faction Warfare should actually mean something to the rest of the players aside from market prices.
These are all related ideas- tied together by the belief that there should be more player involvement for all aspects of the game. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
832
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Posted - 2013.10.27 12:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:March rabbit wrote:- almost every system in SOV 0.0 is claimed - people destroy lots of ships time by time in SOV 0.0 - map is still changing time by time
as long as these evidences present i see no point in changing SOV 0.0 system. What for? People don't like it but people use it.
Only when we will see lots of systems losing SOV because players leaving SOV 0.0 space and this space becoming empty - then it will be clear that time has come to change SOV system "- everyone starts off alive -people are still alive during a TB outbreak -some people survive said TB outbreak as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it. Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB." bad example: - TB (whatever it is) comes to people - SOV 0.0 don't force anyone to come there and suffer => people DECIDED they will live there and "suffer" |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1513
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mechanics which incentivize both the attacker and the defender to show up for as many fights as possible. Provide targets for all sizes and types of fleets. Make every fight meaningful. Allow people to damage an enemy's infrastructure without necessarily escalating into a sov war. (No siphons don't count.) Decent income sources from 0.0 on personal, corporation, and alliance level. Less space should be able to sustain more people, thus reducing the need for massive unused territory. Renting agreements/treaties supported by game mechanics (e.g. alliance wide tax rate, shared blue lists, shared cyno beacons, etc.) Reintroduce PvP-based income sources. Reduce the effect of timezone warfare and the need to alarmclock ops. Provide incentives to introduce new players to 0.0 early on. Corollary to that, improve corporation/alliance security features so that doing so isn't suicide by the way of awox. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
623
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Here's an idea - it's based on real life - if you want to take someone's territory you go there and kill them and then you occupy it with your forces. Then you defend it.
The EvE version - you drop a stupid module and go back to your territory and magically you are given that territory. Don't even need to be there for that. No need to have troops there to defend it its got magic invulnerability timers. |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1773
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Here's an idea - it's based on real life - if you want to take someone's territory you go there and kill them and then you occupy it with your forces. Then you defend it.
The EvE version - you drop a stupid module and go back to your territory and magically you are given that territory. Don't even need to be there for that. No need to have troops there to defend it its got magic invulnerability timers.
That's what I meant to say. You said it better. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc RECURSIVE ASCENSION
37
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Posted - 2013.10.27 12:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Here's an idea - it's based on real life - if you want to take someone's territory you go there and kill them and then you occupy it with your forces. Then you defend it.
The EvE version - you drop a stupid module and go back to your territory and magically you are given that territory. Don't even need to be there for that. No need to have troops there to defend it its got magic invulnerability timers.
You are dead on. The worst game mechanic ever invented is the magical invincible mode and New Eden wide warning system. You want that system? You should have to defend it.
What I would like to see is a system where structures are more easily taken and defended on the fly. Do away with reinforcement timers, since that just causes alliances to ignore attacks until they've assembled a blob, and implement a more realistic alert system. Create a skill tree, Station Management, System Management and Region Management, that gives +1, +2 and +5 to the number of stations a pilot can manage. When a pilot is considered the station manager, they will receive an alert warning them the structure is under attack. No one else is warned, just the station manager. You could anchor structures without a manager, but then there would never be a warning if it gets attacked.
As for the reinforcement timer, it just makes no sense. It leads to group A blobbing the structure, putting it into reinforcement mode with no resistance, while group B tells their blob to be ready at noon tomorrow. Structures and systems in general should be both easier to take down, and easier to defend. An attack on a structure should consist of a single fight, making it possible for smaller groups to destroy them. On the other hand, solar systems should be defensible. Structures that buff allies, or debuff enemies, that actually fight back or buff structures. Perhaps NPC fighters and drones, or even fast attack craft. We, the capsuleers, aren't the only inhabitants of New Eden after all, and while we're busy elsewhere someone is running that station.
The possibilities are endless if we move away from the current blob and grind mechanics. A proud member of Wolfbane Hauler Inc. We are currently recruiting pilots of all skill levels. We need both industrial combat specialists. For more information see our ad:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3764273&#post3764273 |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1514
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and capture the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
852
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Posted - 2013.10.27 12:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
SOV is completely messed up, there is no dynamic in there, it takes way too much effort to take it, and thats why everybody is just friend with their neighbours, SOV is safe, safer as highsec could ever be, its carebears paradise please keep it like that, its fun shooting those newbs out there ... |
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
It needs a revamp, push it towards encouraging warfare and building a lasting empire no one dares to challenge.
That said, timers will likely stay as they prevent sov war from being a timezone ping-pong. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
645
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Posted - 2013.10.27 13:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have an idea... give all the SOV to me, then make it so it cannot be taken over by anyone else, and then I can declare myself ruler of the Eve Universe. I'd let people fly and play in my space, for a fee of course. *removed inappropriate signature* - CCP Eterne |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1774
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures
I totally get the reasoning. But the problem is it's like redcoats facing off against each other. That's not fun, no matter how many people are involved. Fleet Doctrines and strategies are also a problem, but that's a player-driven bittervet problem. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
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ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
2253
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:ElQuirko wrote:"- everyone starts off alive -people are still alive during a TB outbreak -some people survive said TB outbreak
as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it.
Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB." bad example: - TB (whatever it is) comes to people - SOV 0.0 don't force anyone to come there and suffer => people DECIDED they will live there and "suffer"
-TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements. -Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer". Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc RECURSIVE ASCENSION
37
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Posted - 2013.10.27 13:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures
This is the problem. If you can't defend your space, why should you get to keep it? The fact that your only strategy is to continuously flip Sov is due to reinforcement timers. You believe that you have some right to own what you can't afford to keep. The solution is simple, make friends in other timezones so that you can defend your systems, instead of arguing for the game to do it. Or better yet, think! Thinking occurs when you're forced to come up with a strategy to counter someone else's strategy. If you want something, figure out how to take it and keep it with what you have. A proud member of Wolfbane Hauler Inc. We are currently recruiting pilots of all skill levels. We need both industrial combat specialists. For more information see our ad:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3764273&#post3764273 |
Grunanca
Sickology
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote: The idea of SOV in nullsec is somewhat of a paradox. You could argue that wormhole space is the final frontier. But I'd like to see nullsec more accessible to smaller groups of players. If Harry wants to put up a POS in VFK, he should be able to, even if it gets blown up immediately. SOV should be controlled by the players not the structures. If you don't want someone to put up a POS in "your" space, I think you should have to blow them up instead of relying on SOV structures. Sure, ultimately it's the players who put up the structures and defend them, but the current mechanics favor large groups. And no, I don't think NPC null solves any of this.
I'm not saying change the existing mechanics for the current space. Instead, open up a new area of null with different rules. Add to that NPC factions that actively gain and lose control of space. I'm sure some sort of creative storyline/lore could explain the difference.
I'd also like to see high sec and low sec opened up more to player involvement in the policing of space. Additionally, Faction Warfare should actually mean something to the rest of the players aside from market prices.
These are all related ideas- tied together by the belief that there should be more player involvement for all aspects of the game.
To make fewer people attack the pos, have the tower obtain the energy its hit with and once every 1 min, it shoots a beam with that amount of damage. If damage is too high, it instapops a ship. Very raw idea, but could be worked on |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1524
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
If your answer is "just eliminate timers" you should stop posting now because you're obviously utterly clueless.
Now, if you said eliminate the need for timers by eliminating the reliance on structures to claim binary ownership of sov, then you are on the right track. However, turning warfare into TZ ping pong structure shoots is literally even worse than dominion mechanics, which are already an achievement in ill-consideration and ineptitude. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
The problem with sov, and the major reason why it's such a tricky thing for CCP to have to consider, is that it's pretty binary.
Either you have timers, or not. Either people have to grind structures and end up with pre arranged fights on the timer, or it turns into a colossal display of timezone flipping ****ery. (played games like this, WHO being a major one. it is NOT fun at all)
This is exacerbated by the fact that, aside from having your name on it, there isn't a whole lot of reason to actually own space. There is not any point whatsoever in attempting manufacturing, and moon mining doesn't strictly require sov either.
Here is the list of benefits of holding sov, straight from the wiki.
Quote:Benefits of Sovereignty There are various benefits for holding sovereignty over a system. These are listed below:
Protection is provided for the system. Without sovereignty, stations are vulnerable to attack at all times, even when SBUs have not been anchored at gates within the systems. Stations will also not have protection in the form of reinforcement timers if the station holder is not the sovereign entity over the system. The ability to set up an Infrastructure Hub in the system is obtained. This in turn allows an alliance to greatly improve the infrastructure within the system as well as opens up the possibility for anchoring advanced Starbase structures such as Capital Ship Construction Arrays and Jump Bridges in the system. 25% less fuel is consumed by Starbases anchored in the system by corporations belonging to the sovereignty holding alliance. Bragging rights! The system is displayed as belonging to the sovereign entity on the in-game starmap.
So... owning a station, and bragging rights. Because we already established that industry is nigh worthless, the only reason to even have iHubs is to build caps and bridges.
Those things need to be set up over a fairly significant time period. Timezone flippery will completely invalidate what few benefits there are of owning sov. So that flat out is not happening.
And that's the problem. CCP is between a rock and a hard place. The existing option isn't much fun, but the alternatives are much worse. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1524
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hey, somebody who actually understands that which he pontificates on.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
244
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:March rabbit wrote:ElQuirko wrote:"- everyone starts off alive -people are still alive during a TB outbreak -some people survive said TB outbreak
as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it.
Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB." bad example: - TB (whatever it is) comes to people - SOV 0.0 don't force anyone to come there and suffer => people DECIDED they will live there and "suffer" -TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements. -Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer". See the point I'm getting at? Sov is a necessary evil and, just like the side effects of humanity's necessary evils, needs to be worked at to be improved.
Tuberculosis (TB) is airbourne not water http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis i believe the original reference is due to the TB in cattle in the UK. It is believed that badgers are a source of infection for cattle and so a debate was started about culling badgers or trying to find a way to vaccinate badgers. If anyone is still interested then i will reveal that careful experiments showed that if you perform a cull of at least 70% of badgers in a certain area within a 6 week period and do so via means that don't alarm the surviving badgers too much then you can in the medium term lower the amount of TB in cattle. They also found if you kill less, take longer or overly alarm the other badgers doing it then you make the TB problem worse. After much debate a system of badger culling was chosen that would certainly alarm the other badgers and was started without knowing the original population numbers. After 6 weeks less than half the absurdly made up kill target was reached. So all 3 criteria were breached and thus a bunch of native animals were slaughtered at great expense with the result that TB in cattle will almost certainly now rise in this area. The government and farmers deem this a success and plan to do it again. This is also why all elected officials that refuse to accept science should be jailed. cf global warming cf sustainable growth.
Jesus all this pointless blather on an internet spaceship forum just because i can't cope with people posting incorrect epidemiology. dw i am stepping away from the keyboard slowly.
Marriage: The reason we build bars Galen Tyrol |
Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc RECURSIVE ASCENSION
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
The argument of OH MY GOD TIMEZONE is a bit idiotic in an MMO such as EVE. In an MMO that employs the shard mechanics of Ultima Online, which all of them except EVE do, you always have the main TZ for that shard to contend with. If it's a US EST shard, most of the players will be from that TZ and so you'll have that constant back and forth where you take it while they sleep, and they take it while you sleep. EVE, however, has no such problem. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from playing during their peak hours, and unless you're some kind of bigot, you can even ally with people in other timezones. I know, you think you're the only one holding you Alliance together, and if people are on when you aren't they'll awox, spy and steal. But really, if that happens you're a terrible leader and that's why reinforcements timers are so integral to you maintaining your control. Reinforcements timers should be replaced by a more realistic system of offense and defense. Why wouldn't people want a better system? A proud member of Wolfbane Hauler Inc. We are currently recruiting pilots of all skill levels. We need both industrial combat specialists. For more information see our ad:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3764273&#post3764273 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4965
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 15:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And that's the problem. CCP is between a rock and a hard place. The existing option isn't much fun, but the alternatives are much worse. No wonder TEST was so quick to :getout: of sov. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 15:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote: -TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements. -Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer".
See the point I'm getting at? Sov is a necessary evil and, just like the side effects of humanity's necessary evils, needs to be worked at to be improved.
FYI: I think you're confusing TB with cholera. TB is transmitted by inhalation of aerosolised droplets (i.e. sneeze droplets). |
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