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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
197
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Posted - 2013.10.27 16:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures This.
I don't really like timers and the structure grind more than anyone else, but how else one could account for the fact that there are things like timezones, work and life to consider? Eve is still a game and therefore has to take the backseat to real life and this is what the timers are for. Even with several days to work with you won't get everyone online because a number of your members have other stuff to do. But at least you get the chance to get enough people to form a defense, with less time (several hours or even less) there would be no way that is possible. Meaning that without timers sov and developing systems would be pointless because it would be impossible to prevent them from being taken from you unless for the rare case where you have actually already a sizeable fleet in the vicinity.
It's a neccessary evil.
That doesn't mean that sov is perfectly fine as it is, but any change needs to address such things as well and probably cannot get rid of all annoyances. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures
This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this.
Drop a TCU, and then leave? K, it's totally undefended and will get destroyed very quickly. Oh, they came back to defend it? Then what are you whining about?
Reinforcement timers exist because this is a game, so there needs to be a balancing aspect. It would be very fun to work hard to hold a system only to lose it because you play with your friends who all live in the same time zone. You shouldn't be forced to recruit equal numbers of people from every part of the planet just to hold a system.
And I'd like to remind people that this system is quite a lot better than the old pos-spam. The foundation is fine, there's no reason to scrap the entire mechanic again. If you want to suggest new sov structures to add, that's one thing, but until people start actually making suggestions for improvement rather than whining about killing buildings and invulnerability timers, nothing is going to change. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4965
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this. Drop a TCU, and then leave? K, it's totally undefended and will get destroyed very quickly. Oh, they came back to defend it? Then what are you whining about? Reinforcement timers exist because this is a game, so there needs to be a balancing aspect. It would be very fun to work hard to hold a system only to lose it because you play with your friends who all live in the same time zone. You shouldn't be forced to recruit equal numbers of people from every part of the planet just to hold a system. And I'd like to remind people that this system is quite a lot better than the old pos-spam. The foundation is fine, there's no reason to scrap the entire mechanic again. If you want to suggest new sov structures to add, that's one thing, but until people start actually making suggestions for improvement rather than whining about killing buildings and invulnerability timers, nothing is going to change. More structures.
The 8 hours while a tcu onlines can be very hectic. Unless you're in 10% tidi, i think the tcu onlines in 8 hours still, not 80. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1524
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Posted - 2013.10.27 17:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
It really comes down to the binary ownership of sov, and sov ownership in itself having little value beyond the psychological.
"Sov" should be a sliding scale of beneficial upgrades that groups can make to systems through consistent use. Your ability to upgrade a system is tied directly to how much you use it, limited by how much other groups do. The more another group is able to impede your consistent use of a system, the more vulnerable your "sov" upgrades become to destruction. CCP was on the right track with dominion, but they failed terribly with the IHUB and IHUB upgrade system, which should be much more varied, dynamic, and compelling, as opposed to just dumping upgrades in a sinlge massive hp timer box.
Stations should keep old school sovereignty mechanics though, so there's still something for massive coalitions to have massive wars over, making the rental system about station access and corresponding fees instead of binary sov ownership, tied of course to further incentives to nullsec production and trade. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Atomic Virulent
Dark Matter Industrial
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 18:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Let's just hope that any changes recommended by Goons are discarded and incinerated with the rest of the bio-hazardous materials. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 18:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Atomic Virulent wrote:Let's just hope that any changes recommended by Goons are discarded and incinerated with the rest of the bio-hazardous materials.
Just like when they tried to get CCP to fix the FW abuses, and a whole bunch of other bugs and exploits, right?
Seriously, all the butthurt crybaby have-nots out there need to knock it out with the "Grr Goons!" nonsense. A good idea is a good idea no matter who it comes from. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1781
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1307
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote: If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well.
I must say, I think the siphons could have been done differently. As they stand, they seem like they are good for little more than griefing. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1524
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well.
They should. However, I'm all for siphons being released as currently envisioned, so people can get an unmitigated view of structure spam and grind ping-pong at its absolute worst, and why it is an absolutely terrible idea. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
629
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.
Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?
tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people no timers = shooting unmanned structures This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this. I think people don't get it because its complete BS.
Just like I can't take and keep sov because I want to solo, you shouldn't be able to take and keep sov because you want all US players or all EU players or all Rus players in your alliance.
That choice, which YOU make, doesn't force you to play ping pong, it just means you choose to play ping pong. If timers were removed and you recruited people from other time zones than those people out there that don't would be losing sov when you're shooting their stuff and not taking it back when you're sleeping because your balanced recruitment would mean as you log off to sleep / work, your elsewhere time zone friends are logging on to defend.
The only reason there is ping pong or was ping pong is because people are lazy or can't be arsed to recruit in a balanced way. So they whine to CCP for a weenus holder.
EvE is all about adapting. If timers were removed smart alliances would adapt and stupid alliances would fall. IMO there are a lot of stupid alliances and coalitions that are being babysat and propped up by the timer garbage.
It would also help to spread out the combat around the clock instead of the farcical blobfest we saw against Test, where Test jumping in ended up in a turkey shoot for Goons because of the overloaded system.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
And here we go. IZ seems to believe that you should be FORCED to recruit Russians and other such people from different timezones, just to defend your stuff against day tripper wannabes and Rebel Alliance heroes like himself.
Because his player choice is more important than yours, folks. You heard it here. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
630
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And here we go. IZ seems to believe that you should be FORCED to recruit Russians and other such people from different timezones, just to defend your stuff against day tripper wannabes and Rebel Alliance heroes like himself.
Because his player choice is more important than yours, folks. You heard it here. Not forced. Choose.
EvE is not World of Warcraft. Its supposed to be a sandbox. Strong smart players > weak lazy players. You seem to want to to be a weak lazy player and have the server hold your weenus? Amirite? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And here we go. IZ seems to believe that you should be FORCED to recruit Russians and other such people from different timezones, just to defend your stuff against day tripper wannabes and Rebel Alliance heroes like himself.
Because his player choice is more important than yours, folks. You heard it here. Not forced. Choose. EvE is not World of Warcraft. Its supposed to be a sandbox. Strong smart players > weak lazy players. You seem to want to to be a weak lazy player and have the server hold your weenus? Amirite?
No, it's forced. You outright said that, if timers are removed and someone can't keep their sov, it's their fault for not recruiting more people in other timezones.
That is saying "multi timezone or GTFO". That's force. That's you being a weak lazy player who wants to hobble the competition because you can't beat them. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Baaldor
In Igne Morim Easily Excited
147
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
EvE is not World of Warcraft. Its supposed to be a sandbox. Strong smart players > weak lazy players. You seem to want to to be a weak lazy player and have the server hold your weenus? Amirite?
Oh, you mean like the e-honor risk averse specialsnowflakes who can't deal with cloakers sitting in your jewing system?
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
631
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And here we go. IZ seems to believe that you should be FORCED to recruit Russians and other such people from different timezones, just to defend your stuff against day tripper wannabes and Rebel Alliance heroes like himself.
Because his player choice is more important than yours, folks. You heard it here. Not forced. Choose. EvE is not World of Warcraft. Its supposed to be a sandbox. Strong smart players > weak lazy players. You seem to want to to be a weak lazy player and have the server hold your weenus? Amirite? No, it's forced. You outright said that, if timers are removed and someone can't keep their sov, it's their fault for not recruiting more people in other timezones. That is saying "multi timezone or GTFO". That's force. That's you being a weak lazy player who wants to hobble the competition because you can't beat them. No its called choosing. You want to be rich you choose to work hard to get rich. You want a nice looking girlfriend or (maybe you want a nice looking boyfriend?) you work at making yourself look nice and desirable. No ones forcing you to do that you just get extra good stuff if you choose to go after it.
This is exactly the same, you choose to recruit a balanced time zone alliance and you get nice stuff (Sov) or you don't and you get ping pong.
That's how life works, I know its hard for the Y generation to understand effort and reward but that's actually the reality. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: No its called choosing. You want to be rich you choose to work hard to get rich. You want a nice looking girlfriend or (maybe you want a nice looking boyfriend?) you work at making yourself look nice and desirable. No ones forcing you to do that you just get extra good stuff if you choose to go after it.
This is exactly the same, you choose to recruit a balanced time zone alliance and you get nice stuff (Sov) or you don't and you lose sov.
That's how life works, I know its hard for the Y generation to understand effort and reward but that's actually the reality.
Once again, nope. EVE is a video game, after all, not real life.
It's putting a barrier to entry where none existed before. That's the difference, that's why it's force. And what is your argument for why? To question the sexuality of people who disagree with you? That's fairly reportable by the way, especially coming from someone who whined so very, very hard about "personal attacks" in their own thread. Although I already knew you were a hypocrite, so it makes little difference to me.
Oh, and...
You have yet to actually say why any of the complete, utter nonsense you endlessly spew onto these forums is a good idea other than "because I say so", or "trust me", or my very favorite "Grr Goons". You have no argument, you're just being obnoxious. At least Ace was amusing in her endless narcissistic absurdities. You, on the other hand, are banality personified. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1524
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
Just dropping timers is such an impossible outcome that it's not even worth arguing about. It's the equivalent of someone coming in and saying "pinkforestbanana", and then crossing their arms as if it was your turn to offer a rebuttal. It's a literal non-issue because it will never happen. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1733
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
kaarous infinity ziona is an elite pvper in her nullified cloaky proteus, hunting all the pveers that are completely safe in nullsec, i think she knows what she's talking about, and everything you say against her bad ideas is invalid because you just want to hide behind your timers and not defend your things, except when the timers come out and you have to protect them anyway |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:kaarous infinity ziona is an elite pvper in her nullified cloaky proteus, hunting all the pveers that are completely safe in nullsec, i think she knows what she's talking about, and everything you say against her bad ideas is invalid because you just want to hide behind your timers and not defend your things, except when the timers come out and you have to protect them anyway
You forgot that it's a shield fit Proteus, because IZ is such a special snowflake that any criticism just falls off like Teflon.
And besides, the fact that I haven't lived in null in years, and as such have nothing to defend with my statements, will surely fall on deaf ears.
That's why I said IZ bores me. At least the previous iteration of forum trolls were semi amusing. But Harry is a broken record (I also imagine everything he says in the Randy Newman voice) and IZ is just a incurable fool. Gotham deserves a better class of criminal. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Roby Omanid
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
0
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Posted - 2013.10.27 20:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
I know nothing about grinding hubs for sov, so correct me if this scenario is a bad example, I just thought this could be a hypothetical scenario if timers were removed, but lets say alliance "X" "Y" and "Z" are all 1000+ members.
Without reinforcement timers alliance X begins attacking alliance Y, alliance Y notices the attack going on and they're able to rush to their defense. TiDi goes into effect, slowing the system down to 10% and making the fight last forever. Alliance Z has been planning to invade alliance X and hearing about this fight, instead of trying to just get on killmails, goes and logs on caps and supercaps and takes a part of alliance X's sov because alliance X can't get back to defend their systems. So now if you attack someone you're also forced to leave behind a defense fleet in case someone tries to take your sov while you're fighting for someone else's sov. Which means that alliance X can only field about half of their numbers for an attack, meanwhile the defender doesn't have to worry about fielding fleets in multiple regions.
Or probably more far-fetched, alliance Y decides "screw this" and does a "sov flip" on X. What you find shocking, they-áfind amusing. |
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
487
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Posted - 2013.10.27 20:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Get rid of all of it. I don't need a flag to tell me that my corp 'owns' a system and neither do I need to see our name on a map. We own a system by dominating all traffic within it. Territories need a reliable and consistent military to maintain them if you don't have that you don't have 'sov' even if your name is on the map.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Baaldor
In Igne Morim Easily Excited
147
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 21:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Get rid of all of it. I don't need a flag to tell me that my corp 'owns' a system and neither do I need to see our name on a map. We own a system by dominating all traffic within it. Territories need a reliable and consistent military to maintain them if you don't have that you don't have 'sov' even if your name is on the map.
yes, to hell with all the other peeps that are into building empires, creating content and the amazing ability to herd cats... |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1527
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 21:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roby Omanid wrote:I know nothing about grinding hubs for sov, so correct me if this scenario is a bad example...
Naw, the outcome is alliances forming whenever it's convenient for them, and trying to out-spam their own structures and out-grind the enemy's structures so that the enemy loses activity at a higher rate to burnout from absolutely eye-stabbingly nauseating gameplay.
Which, unfortunately, is not far off where we are now with Dominion, but this would be even worse.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1527
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 21:11:00 -
[54] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Get rid of all of it. I don't need a flag to tell me that my corp 'owns' a system and neither do I need to see our name on a map. We own a system by dominating all traffic within it. Territories need a reliable and consistent military to maintain them if you don't have that you don't have 'sov' even if your name is on the map.
yes, to hell with all the other peeps that are into building empires, creating content and the amazing ability to herd cats...
I think what he means is **** the "name on the map" aspect of sov, and make it about actual tangible effects on gameplay, not focus the whole thing on some generally meaningless flag-planting at the expense of the actual gameplay involved.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1317
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 22:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Baaldor wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Get rid of all of it. I don't need a flag to tell me that my corp 'owns' a system and neither do I need to see our name on a map. We own a system by dominating all traffic within it. Territories need a reliable and consistent military to maintain them if you don't have that you don't have 'sov' even if your name is on the map.
yes, to hell with all the other peeps that are into building empires, creating content and the amazing ability to herd cats... I think what he means is **** the "name on the map" aspect of sov, and make it about actual tangible effects on gameplay, not focus the whole thing on some generally meaningless flag-planting at the expense of the actual gameplay involved.
There is some merit to that, I'd say. In quite a few systems, it wouldn't really matter to anyone if the Goons dropped sov on them tomorrow. The fact that the flag still flies is largely due to the desire to flip everyone else the virtual bird by having that much sov.
At least, from what I can tell. I am neither an interested party nor part of the Goon finance team, so whatever benefit, if any, they gain from holding those systems would be beyond me. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1528
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 22:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
Yeah, it's mostly psychological, though holding sov for strategic station control is the most common practical reason to hold space you don't use, which is solved by decoupling station control from sovereignty. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4968
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:In quite a few systems, it wouldn't really matter to anyone if the Goons dropped sov on them tomorrow. The fact that the flag still flies is largely due to the desire to flip everyone else the virtual bird by having that much sov. Progodlegend would love a good staging system for the invasion in which his coalition will fulfill the stated goal for which it exists.
Varius Xeral wrote:Yeah, it's mostly psychological, though holding sov for strategic station control is the most common practical reason to hold space you don't use, which is solved by decoupling station control from sovereignty. Also, you want ihub upgrades, for general use. Renters care about this in particular.
Oh yeah also jump bridges (nerf force projectionnnnn), cyno beacons (free killmails) and cyojammers.
And sov bonuses for towers. Which will be less important as your gains will be siphoned away, grr goons siphon all their reaction farms There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4968
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Erotica 1 wrote:If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well. I must say, I think the siphons could have been done differently. As they stand, they seem like they are good for little more than griefing. Griefing goons, perhaps.
Varius Xeral wrote:Erotica 1 wrote:If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well. They should. However, I'm all for siphons being released as currently envisioned, so people can get an unmitigated view of structure spam and grind ping-pong at its absolute worst, and why it is an absolutely terrible idea. Yes, more structures.
For best effect though, treat them like a pos module, where you get them into structure and then they are "reinforced" (like incapped) and you must rep them up to 50% shields, 100% armor/structure before they can be used again. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4968
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 00:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
Actually this gives me an idea.
Instead of gates, use pos-based methods to decide if the station/ihub is invulnerable. So it's like this,
You need a sovereignty blockade unit on more than half of the planets.
For each planet, you need a sovereignty invasion unit on more than half of the moons. ( You can put sovereignty invasion units on grid with a hostile pos). For planets with no moons, you can just sbu the planet.
You can have multiple online SBU/SIUs at any time. This does away with defensive SBUing. They will have to be placeable like siphons, not snap-to a grid.
Once online, a SIU has one shield reinforce timer. One onlined, a SBU has two (shield, armor) reinforce timer. The TCU should be placed on the sun now, it has three (shield, armor, structure) timers. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Felicity Love
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
934
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 00:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Grinds.
More than anything, people hate "stuff" that takes too much time.
Case in point, look at how Anchoring/Unanchoring timers have changed over the years.
Any "new" system needs to address the time requirements of the actual doing of "x" or "y", rather than timers designed to allow participation and/or responses from competing parties.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
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