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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
146
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 18:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Once people get PLEX involved they lose track of this Vector force.
- so for purposes of this thread we need to stipulate PLEX is not involved and the following terms/situation is being explored in itself (leaving room of course for separate threads on separate scenarios)
Condition 1) A free subscription is given to an avid game player who has never played the EVE, and that player actively participates the 15 plus hours a week that avid game players do when they play a game.
Condition 2) We state as a fact that this avid game, they never never would have paid $ for the subscription (say they have no disposable income.. their wife takes their entire check and gives him no spending money)
Question:
What is that player's range of real $ worth in $ to CCP , ? - explore the hard costs that incremental player causes CCP - explore the probability that such avid game player would bring new players , some of who would pay real $ to the game.. via word of mouth recommendation and direct invitation to established friends - explore the effect of Demographics of that Player's age and geographical location on the probability that they would attact incremental paying players (and especially hyper paying players.. who to avoid the plex discussion, personally subscribe to dozens of accounts with hard $ to earn isk to buy expensive ships with those additional accounts)
. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
What is the point of divorcing this from PLEX? At that point you have a non-relevant category. Players truly playing for free without a projected end-date of the trial are effectively unimportant. The value of the trial lies in the the enticement to buying gametime. I guess I fail to see your goal here. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1539
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
No you will not get an argument for F2P EVE out of this. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
146
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Posted - 2013.10.28 19:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:What is the point of divorcing this from PLEX? At that point you have a non-relevant category. Players truly playing for free without a projected end-date of the trial are effectively unimportant. The value of the trial lies in the the enticement to buying gametime. I guess I fail to see your goal here.
because if you discuss the gas efficiency of an automobile you have a separate discussion for each vector!
What is the effect of a head wind on the gas efficency of a car if it were a perfect box ?
Then you discuss "what shape provides the least drag"
Any attempt to discuss horse power of an engine in a discussion of wind resistance muddles the discussion on wind resistance.
Any rational discussion of Gas Efficency of a vehicle has got to examine and have all parties agree that a given vector is of value and assign their own value to that vector.
People can't dismiss a vector and still claim to be rational. . |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
146
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Posted - 2013.10.28 19:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:What is the point of divorcing this from PLEX? At that point you have a non-relevant category. Players truly playing for free without a projected end-date of the trial are effectively unimportant. The value of the trial lies in the the enticement to buying gametime. I guess I fail to see your goal here.
Also
Not all game time needs to be given away via the PLEX mechanism You can subscribe to the game with re-ocurring credit card payments.
Free trial periods are given
- the discussion is entirely useful beyond the inclusion of PLEX
Once the vector is discussed.. perhaps it could then be applied to the discussion of plex.. but the idea that a player has value separate from what they pay monthly does not depend of the existence of plex. . |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1087
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
So I would just have to convince CCP that I would cease playing EVE unless I get a free account?
As a currently paying player I'd say "challenge accepted". |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
148
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Posted - 2013.10.28 20:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:So I would just have to convince CCP that I would cease playing EVE unless I get a free account?
As a currently paying player I'd say "challenge accepted".
Yes,
If they were convinced you would not play unless you could play for free they would likely be well served giving you free game time.
What it would take to convince them is a matter of modeling .. they have the demographic data.. know the average subscriber time.. know which accounts stand the highest probability of non-renewal based not only on time.. but in game activity like perhaps bounties earned or number of gate jumps.
Its modeling not precision.
Retailers use it all the time. Your grocery store charges vastly different prices different days of the month. Large chains discount items differently from store to store based on local market-share of that specific store. Snack-food producers put discount coupons in different publications depending on the demographics of the readers...
... their (snack food makers) goal is to develop more regular consumers of their items or incremental smaller profits from customers who care enough to take some extra bother to clip a coupon or something.
There are marketing books on this sort of thing. There is the concept of "Mavens" .. people who are unduly influenctial in the decission making process of others. Companies (beyond EVE ) know that if they can do whatever it takes to convince a "maven" to support their product, they can get many times as many customers.
So, don't dismiss the thing like it's silly.
.... try to engage it as best you could using your best faith estimates of how you would maximize your own money if you thought like a Marketing person.
You don't need to like it.. You don't need to think it is right
this isnt' about right and wrong.. its about discussing the benefits of what you wish didn't exist perhaps.
. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1540
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
So yeah. You want F2P EVE.
get out. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Additionally, someone just finished their first undergrad physics class. Take your F2P back to WoW.
More seriously though, I mentioned paying for gametime. Whether I do that through PLEX or subscription, that is still the sum total reason for giving free playtime. The population is high enough that there is no need to effectively 'buy' subscribers with F2P. I could even argue that forcing the population to subscribe, particularly in this time of F2P everywhere, slants the game to an older crowd. This is good for the game.
So yeah, get out. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4469
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 22:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
F2P is a fallacity.
Either a MMO is good enough to deserve a subscription or it's not worth playing and thus making it free only caters to low quality games bottom feeders that make for a demographic I don't want around in my games. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1055
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 22:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
'F2P' always becomes pay to cheat. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 23:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:'F2P' always becomes pay to cheat.
Possible..
why do people assume I have an alterior motive ?
I'm a Gadlfy philosopher and a gadfly anthropolist and a gadfly economist.
Taking things apart to their component parts is FUN for me!
Conclusions are not important to me.. I like to understand the variables involved.. I could care less about firm conclusions . |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 23:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:So yeah. You want F2P EVE.
get out.
Nope.
Maybe I hate that.
There is still room to discuss things like which methods of propaganda worked for the third reich.
Understanding propaganda is interesting in a history forum
Understanding EVE /CCP potential motives is useful in a market discussion forum..
I don't want right or wrong or what is good for the game.. I want to understand "if this, then that" things.
correlations . |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1523
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 02:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:F2P is a fallacity.
Either a MMO is good enough to deserve a subscription or it's not worth playing and thus making it free only caters to low quality games bottom feeders that make for a demographic I don't want around in my games. in addition, they balkanize the player base which is usually a bad thing for MMOs (and social networks).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 02:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
You guys have entirely missed the point of what I was trying to explore.
It wasn't about "free to play"
It was about the vector $ value of each player beyond the current value of future flow of direct $ income from their personal subscription.
I guess if I put it: "Is an existing player paying 15$ a month worth even more than 15$ a montt to CCP"
it would have touched off less alarm bells for you.
It would also be far more confusing.. but.. as the otherone set off alarm bells of f2p no one wanted to embrace the concept of value of an incremental subscriber.
... and, as I alluded to.. some subscribers paying the same price being choicer bags because of their greater ablity to attract new subscribers.
. |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 03:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:You guys have entirely missed the point of what I was trying to explore.
You've entirely missed the point of a Market Discussion forum, actually. Talking about economics in a philosophical manner while calling scalar quantities vectors is offtopic here. I'm not sure where it would be on-topic, actually, let that search be your new mission.
Peace.
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Adunh Slavy
1285
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 04:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
African or European? Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 04:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:You guys have entirely missed the point of what I was trying to explore.
You've entirely missed the point of a Market Discussion forum, actually. Talking about economics in a philosophical manner while calling scalar quantities vectors is offtopic here. I'm not sure where it would be on-topic, actually, let that search be your new mission. Peace.
lol.. ok fair enough.
You should see my forum posts at American Idol or The Voice post show blog comment threads.
Everyone wants to talk about I like "this" or that but no one wants to discuss things like
"I agree the second performer was far better as a wholee.. but lets talk about how the first singer sung the bridge with an almost regae sort of syncopation ? wasn't that pretty cool" .. "she sucked" they say, I say "yeah.. maybe but i'm just talking about the bridge" .
And then.. things like "Wasn't that irony of her dress being a nod to the roaring twenties and her song being a sort of counter culture rejection of sociatal restaints in the 1970's pretty thought provoking ?" really goes over the peoples heads.
I figure a place where they discuss a pop tv show is the place to talk about what I noticed while appreciating the nuances of the show... but... they aren't terrible receptive those places !lol
(and yes, the scalar vs linear thing was a short hand simplification as a starting place for discussion and YES, it was philosophical as I was equating emotional/social forces to quatifialble terms. That is something Economics' Acedamia is really ll struggling with. How to quantify the negative forces of the agency dilemma on the GNP ROI is something behavioral economics still isn't good at mathematically modelling. Main stream Economists really prefer to ignore something they can't quantify rather than saying "'we know that is there.. lets throw in a heuristic adjustment factor which is probably closer to the truth rather than ignoring a factor altogether which is further from the truth than our guess" )
...oops wrong forum to help me discuss that to understand it better and perhaps set my specific mistatements in a more precise way
as are The Voice fans sites... I really want to find a music discussion group with people who know more than I do both about Music, Singing and the Social History of Popular Music .. which looks at the music from a socioligal perspective at the same time as sayign " hey. .I enjoyed that and liked her dress".
Any ideas anyone? . |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
So, to clarify, you're not actually advocating anything, just kinda curious as to the out-of-game value for player goodwill and emergent behavior as a new player draw beyond the pure monetary value of the subscription?
Yeah. an active player is worth slightly more to CCP than the base subscription. As far as the $15, it's less than that actually, due to the long-term incentives on the subscription packages. In fact, one could argue that the very nature of the PLEX market makes it essential to this discussion, as the whole 'play-money-for-real-money' aspect is rather unique and a draw in itself.
That being said, matey, step away from the thesaurus. I can nearly guarantee that nobody here, besides possibly Bad Bobby, is impressed by you torturing your vocabulary until it drips panicked tears of desperation. |
Adunh Slavy
1285
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote: (and yes, the scalar vs linear thing was a short hand simplification as a starting place for discussion and YES, it was philosophical as I was equating emotional/social forces to quantifiable terms. That is something Economics' Acedamia is really ll struggling with. Any ideas anyone?
And it always will. There is no such thing as "aggregate man", utils can not be measured, human valuations and human actions are subjective and not objective.
Positivist, empirical methods can never measure why people like the blue bike more than the red one this year, although they are identical in every other way. Nor can any analysis predict the emergence of new teenie-bopper-pop-star, who holds sway over the vapid values of her fans, and promotes the red bike next year.
Imagine the futility of a meterorologist's models if clouds could think. Now multiply that by seven billion. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:
That being said, matey, step away from the thesaurus. I can nearly guarantee that nobody here, besides possibly Bad Bobby, is impressed by you torturing your vocabulary until it drips panicked tears of desperation.
I actually use many esoteric words in my day to day speech.
My 12 year old daughter can understand the vocabulary words she gets given and wonders why her classmates don't understand words like "disparage" or "ascertain" that I use regularly around the house. FWIW I drive a F-150 truck and I'll intersperse things like "xxck that' and "you gotta be shsttting me" with other more words others might consider stilted. I like Puccin as much as Van Halen... old sailing songs and the grateful dead .. currently digging ZZ Ward and Grace Potter.. I'm no stuffed shirt.. just fcking dig getting into the nitty gritty of things.
But you bring up a better point. I've got a tortured style of prose (and that's putting it nicely) .. especially when trying to use a concept as a subject in a sentence.
Disjunct (and I really want to say disjuncted but I guess I can't make a past particple of an adjective .. ?)
2. An adverbial phrase that modifies a sentence in order to suggest the speaker's commentary on the content of the sentence, as with sadly in Sadly, we have no more dessert left.
LOL sadly, no desert for me here ... on to The Voice blogs's commentary sections ! . |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1460
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 10:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow, this is a long and boring thread. Let's just answer the questions though. Yes, of course a player of a social game is generally worth more than the player pays directly for subscription. With some cash being paid into vanity items, as an average, working out total income divided by total players would give you an average of more than sub cost. Yes, a free player would be worth money, as they still interact socially in game, they still generate content, and by interacting with the market, they help move the economy. This in turn helps keep plexes cycling, keeping people happy to inject plexes into the game. However, if CCP were to allow some players to play for free, pretty soon they'd have to let all players play for free, which in turn would drop plex prices and inevitably lead to a lack of income.
That all said, it's an utterly pointless discussion. It's an obvious question that you are trying to stir up an in depth discussion about, but there's really nothing there to discuss. Unless you actually have a goal to achieve, all you are doing is trying to get people to respond so you can then argue them into the ground until they agree with you.
Oh and as for vocabulary, anyone can pick up any words they want and pepper their sentences with them. Too many people seem to think that the more "advanced" their words are the smarter they are, and it shows they are well spoken. That's not really the case. A good linguist is able to fit their language to their audience, as the goal of language is to convey your thoughts. Now consider the audience of an online game forum. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1303
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 15:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
We are PLEX sinks.
It is as simple as that. Nyan |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
149
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Wow, this is a long and boring thread.
Unless you actually have a goal to achieve, all you are doing is trying to get people to respond so you can then argue them into the ground until they agree with you.
- yes .. that is a pertinent question "good" quetion
"Fair" question" ok ?
here is my intention goal "Point" .:
I have +- 200 billion of "isk and isk "worth of stuff" [ s] "EVE wealth"[/s]
.. I mostly think PLEX have been a good store of EVE wealth long term. - My goal is keeping up with what players think is " a lot" of isk. - "how much isk does this T1 cruiser cos compared to 3 years ago isn't enough for me to feel like I'm "keeping up"
- In the past I valued Characters as a good PLEX equivalent - and still do but I have some nagging worries " I'm bothered about something"
I don't think CCP is going to Go COMPLETELY to F2P - I AM concerned "worried" that with more Marketing professionals working at CCP they'll follow marketing tools use in other industries "the new marketing idiots they hired are going to bork things up thinking that EVE is the same as Cheetos"
-- as Ialluded to "said in a post above", we're all famiiar with "used to" retailers stores and manufacturers companies that make stuff using coupons to motivate lure "get" people who are price sensitive "care a bout cost to buy things that they wouldn't have at a higher price . i.e. "like how' Cheerios cost $4.49 a box one day and are discounted to $1.99 another day
OK so,
You'd agree that "Isn't " Market Discussions forum is a good place to wonder about my "risk" in various types of ISK investments ?
I am concerned "worried" that CCP might use more of that selective discounting "start having more sales" that make game-time or second character training cheaper lots of the time
how frequently "howmany times" that happens will affect "change" the $ cost of getting SP or chars with more more training
So..
I was hoping to hear other peoples thoughts on How CCP marketing guys (not your or I but those guys at CCP who make decisions) might see it.
IF they sell PLEX for a lower $ sometimes ... the over-all $ value of anything with a PLEX relation drops even more than the MUD inflation rate. right?
Follow where I'm going ?
MY PAST IDEAS on avoiding the risk "playing it safe' don't seem to actually work :
I thought stuff that took real PLAYER time like player clicks doing Invention would be a good store of EVE wealth but the value of the items requiring T2 bpc's doesn't seem to track it properly.. things like Covert Cloaking Devices and Expanded Cargoholds don't seem to go up in ISK value in relation to compared with the opportunity costs of 'what the same time could earn" of doinng PVE at higher and higher rates of ISK per Hour of play.
I want to think of alternative "other" places to put my EVE wealth..
if they think that they'll get ahead in total $ by giving away extra game time .. they do it more huh? what do you think CCP values different types of customers at beyond their $ inputs to them ? does where they live and their age matter to the new Marketing guys ? . |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
The problem with your vocabulary isn't that you use words that your reader can't understand, but that you add in extra words that aren't necessary or even proper, in what appears to readers to be an attempt to look more educated. Ironically, your ridiculous crossed-out baby-language post was much better in that respect, even before you crossed out words.
I.e., your constant addition of 'vector' to every sentence, in a way which was not only unnecessary, but actually incorrect. Or, your continued use of 'incremental player', when 'player' alone would be both shorter and superior. It's one thing to talk about the 'marginal utility' or 'marginal value', but 'incremental player' is horrendous.
So, reiterating again, you need both a new form of communication that is clear and readable and a new subject that is interesting and offtopic, or a forum where you can talk to others who don't mind tthe prior defects as they stand. Honestly, if I knew such a forum, I would point you there in a heartbeat. |
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 01:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
I have +- 200 billion of "isk and isk "worth of stuff" [ s] "EVE wealth"[/s]
So all of this is about staying ahead of inflation with a paltry sum of 200 Billion.
A decent eve player can earn that amount in 3 months. So we are not talking about a lifetime sum here.
Eve economists have produced inflation charts of eve. The trend line is less than 10% per year. But at any given moment in time inflation does fluctuate from 50% below the trend to 50% above the trend line.
I suspect you are capturing the market at these high and low points and it makes you believe that inflation is out of control.
Consider with that swing which sometimes occurs monthly the value of your 200 Billion can range from 100 billion to 300 billion. All in the same month. I think you are getting yourself worked up for no reason. You obviously have an over inflated opinion of how much wealth you have. |
Inignort Err
SchmeckTel Group
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
So, discussions of CCP economic decisions and the state of F2P in the MMORPG world is relevant for this particular section of the forums, why?
Can we next discuss the potential hit on profit caused by switching coffee vendors at CCP World Headquarters? I've heard Blizzard is considering a similar switch. EVE = Formula One -á* -áSWTOR = Indy Car -á* WOW = NASCAR DUCY? |
Joan Greywind
No Swag Initiative
177
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 05:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
hey look at me, I am smart I have 200b in EVE, and people in the real world are tired of my s***, so I come to the forums and throw unnecessary wrong words to sound smart, but it seems everywhere I go they can see through my s***, so maybe I am not that smart, I just lie to myself to get out of my deep depression.
pompous a** m****f*****. |
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