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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1454
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 06:18:00 -
[331] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:I respond to so many people its easy to make mistakes. And they love pointing them out to me. :-)
Either way this thread does what i wanted it to do: provide some ideas for CCP to get Suicide Ganking(griefing) in line. They decide if they want to use them or not, but they are there.
Its normal for Suicide Gankers to be here asking for information they already have just for the sake of asking it - and then coming back to say "see, i am right he provided no info on that" and so on, i don`t mind. We got some good info out of their posts. They even inspired some idea, even if that was clearly not their intention!
So what can i say, keep it up!
That's great, can you tell us why such changes would make this sandbox MMO better?
I just don't like it isn't a very good argument. Neither is, its not fair. This is a game where "not fair" is the ideal way to do things. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15659
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:36:00 -
[332] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:baltec1 wrote:Notice how he is avoiding the question I asked him on the last page.
I will ask again Freedom Equality, What ship are we using to scoop the dead freighters loot? I did not avoid the question i avoided the trolls. You use a freighter that scoops the loot and runs to the closest station where it docks. From there i can only think you move it in freighters that are clean(no kill rights/no flags) and in much smaller chunks. So why don't you attack our freighter after it has scooped the loot? Afterall, you have being arguing that it is an easy thing to do and with the crimewatch changes you have a much easier time than the gankers. When CCP announced the crimewatch changes you bears were positively giddy with joy and made merry on the forums declaring an end to freighter ganks because nobody was going to risk scooping the loot in a freighter! And now you are back, begging for just one more nerf. Indeed.
Do you also remember the nerf suicide gankers insurance threads too? The cries for this nerf included: "There is no risk in ganking with insurance." "Gankers will cry over this change and we will be happy." "This will stop suicide ganking as it adds risk." "It's all we want to change is insurance, there will be no need for more."
The funny thing is, many of us supported that change. But many of us also laughed and said it wouldn't stop and you'll be back to ask for more nerfs. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15659
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:52:00 -
[333] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:I respond to so many people its easy to make mistakes. And they love pointing them out to me. :-)
Either way this thread does what i wanted it to do: provide some ideas for CCP to get Suicide Ganking(griefing) in line. They decide if they want to use them or not, but they are there.
Its normal for Suicide Gankers to be here asking for information they already have just for the sake of asking it - and then coming back to say "see, i am right he provided no info on that" and so on, i don`t mind. We got some good info out of their posts. They even inspired some idea, even if that was clearly not their intention!
So what can i say, keep it up! You still haven't explained why you cant just do it yourself. We've spelled out how. But you appear to want CCP to play the game for you. He can't answer. Just like he's avoided every other question or request he doesn't like. It means admitting he's wrong. |
Frozen Chief
Hedion University Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:14:00 -
[334] - Quote
It is important to the game balance that pirates (in this case ganking pirates) have to actually evaluate what they gank. In it's current state most pirates get away just ganking everything in their path, even cargoless hulls.
They can gank 2-3 cargoless freighter hulls and on the 4th gank, they get a typical cargo (say 1 bil flat). Repeat this routine until sec status gets too low. Result: All lost ships payed + sec status tags needed for all the gankers + profit leftover.
If you gank 4 times, and 3 of those ships are cargoless, you should be losing ISK barring the 4th ship being unusually expensive.
Being able to gank your freighter after you've ganked mine does not mean everything is balanced and fair. Remember, you are ganker. I am a hauler (in this case of course... in actuality I'm a crappy low-sec pirate). That means the balance needs to remain within those roles. If you plan your gank right, I should be ganked. I should not gank you back, because I'm just some lowly hauler.
There's also something to be said about civilized conversation. Everyone in this thread getting their panties in a bunch... sheesh :P. There's no facts here, this is a rather subjective issue. Thus learn to respect each others opinions on this matter.
I wonder how many of you would go into work and argue with a coworker like this. The answer is pretty much 0 because without the anonymity of the internet, you'd be too embarrassed to communicate like that. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:29:00 -
[335] - Quote
It would be nice if escorts, specifically combat escorts had a way to take pre-emptive action - as a "true" escort would do. However, I don't see a way to manage this within existing game mechanics without breaking like.....everything.
It kinda sucks that people know it's coming but can't take the first shot, however I'm realistic enough to know that we live in an imperfect world.
I've considered various ways to make it more "interesting" but none are really workable in the existing mechanics and I dont think the existing problem is big enough to merit a massive overhaul. |
baltec1
Bat Country
8445
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:39:00 -
[336] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:It would be nice if escorts, specifically combat escorts had a way to take pre-emptive action - as a "true" escort would do. However, I don't see a way to manage this within existing game mechanics without breaking like.....everything.
It kinda sucks that people know it's coming but can't take the first shot, however I'm realistic enough to know that we live in an imperfect world.
I've considered various ways to make it more "interesting" but none are really workable in the existing mechanics and I dont think the existing problem is big enough to merit a massive overhaul.
Lgi boats, boosting ships, web bonused frigs, insta lock canes. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
331
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:56:00 -
[337] - Quote
Frozen Chief wrote:It is important to the game balance that pirates (in this case ganking pirates) have to actually evaluate what they gank. In it's current state most pirates get away just ganking everything in their path, even cargoless hulls.
They can gank 2-3 cargoless freighter hulls and on the 4th gank, they get a typical cargo (say 1 bil flat). Repeat this routine until sec status gets too low. Result: All lost ships payed + sec status tags needed for all the gankers + profit leftover.
If you gank 4 times, and 3 of those ships are cargoless, you should be losing ISK barring the 4th ship being unusually expensive. Thing is: those that gank empty freighters are not suicide gankers - in most cases they are proper war targets, so they do not apply to this thread. Or something in suicide gank went horribly wrong and they received wrong intel but then that is risk of suicide gankers. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:57:00 -
[338] - Quote
Yes, but the options for a pre-emotive strike ARE limited, this is unfortunate. It's also the way of it.
It would be nice to have but the logistics (no pun) are not possible I don't believe. |
baltec1
Bat Country
8445
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 12:56:00 -
[339] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Yes, but the options for a pre-emotive strike ARE limited, this is unfortunate. It's also the way of it.
It would be nice to have but the logistics (no pun) are not possible I don't believe.
The bulk of suicide ganks are done by just one group who you can wardec. |
Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 14:20:00 -
[340] - Quote
The first idea would allow people to go in first with some war ships and clear the way. It would add risk in the form of PVP for the Suicide Gankers. They are already doing some kind of PVP but now their targets might actually shoot back.
An addition can be made, as in during the 3day(actual number to be decided) period any Suicide Ganker should be allowed, if he wants to, to pay a fine(fine value should be directly related to the ISK value of the items/ships he destroyed, not an equal value by all means, but 5% to 10% of that value). Paying the find would end the time period in which he can be attacked by anyone.
This can be used to avoid mistakes, for example some new player using a BS targetting and destroying a frigate/cruise by mistake.(as if it is a mistake he would only fire once) This way, after he gets taken out by CONCORD, he can pay the fine and be done with it. The fine in a such a case would be minimal, 5% to 10% of the cruiser value would not be much(in most cases under 1 mil ISK) for a player already owning a BS and would be a good way to not punish people for making mistakes.
The fine for a Suicide Ganker killing a Marauder/Freighter or constantly ganking mining ships.... would be substantial, big enough so it can`t be payed after every successful gank to avoid the time period in which he can be shot by anyone.
It should be enough for the Suicide Gankers taking out miners as i have just looked at a very known corp specializing in taking out mining barges in High Sec. Their estimated destroyed ISK value for one of their players(they work alone or in pairs) was 8bil+(yes he killed a lot of mining barges) so 5% to 10% of that would be 400mil to 800mil, enough as not be cheap for them to be able to just pay the fine without taking a loss, as the fine is intended to either let players that made a mistake get away with it or be used AT A LOSS by the Suicide Ganker to be able to stop ganking and the retribution associated with it.
For the time period anyone can attack the Suicide Ganker, the Suicide Ganker should be noticeable in local(adding an icon to them) so when they enter local, people looking at local can notice a gang of Suicide Gankers is entering and decide if they want to risk it or just go and dock. This gives them the same option 0.0 players have, even less as they have no intel channels. This would provide a way for miners/people doing missions that are in belts/missions to defend themselfs by paying attention.
I will add this to the post where i presented the idea the first time. I find it quite balanced as now once a Suicide Gankers has actually Suicide Ganked people, everyone knows(for a time) what he does. If they are slow/don`t pay attention they will get caught and killed, but if they are paying attention and move faster than the Suicide Gankers they will escape. Now the victim has a chance. And the Suicide Gankers can become the victim of just about anyone if they Suicide Gank people, giving them the same treatment as their victims, who can be Suicide Ganked by anyone.
The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough. |
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Gridloader
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:20:00 -
[341] - Quote
just buff freighter/jump freighter hull/armor/shield attributes 10x and let gankers gank |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
590
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:33:00 -
[342] - Quote
Lol, when I read the Title my first thought was "the only realistic approach to punish an immortal money hoarding, amoral demigod would be to let him pay the insurance of the ship he destroyed illegally."
I had to smile about my own bad idea for poping into my head like that. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
589
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:04:00 -
[343] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:The first idea would allow people to go in first with some war ships and clear the way. It would add risk in the form of PVP for the Suicide Gankers. They are already doing some kind of PVP but now their targets might actually shoot back.
An addition can be made, as in during the 3day(actual number to be decided) period any Suicide Ganker should be allowed, if he wants to, to pay a fine(fine value should be directly related to the ISK value of the items/ships he destroyed, not an equal value by all means, but 5% to 10% of that value). Paying the find would end the time period in which he can be attacked by anyone.
This is a bad idea, if your people are too stupid to figure out how to shoot a freighter, how the hell do you expect them to manage to take on a guy in a combat ship? |
tommy two feathers
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:30:00 -
[344] - Quote
why not make it so they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!! |
baltec1
Bat Country
8448
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:39:00 -
[345] - Quote
tommy two feathers wrote:why not make it so they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!!
You may want to look up what crimewatch does. |
baltec1
Bat Country
8448
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:45:00 -
[346] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:
The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.
You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1456
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:49:00 -
[347] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:
The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.
You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk.
Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too.... |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
589
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:01:00 -
[348] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:baltec1 wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:
The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.
You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk. Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too.... Even then it takes a few seconds for the freighter to get up to speed before they can web it, easily enough time for someone to lock it and get a point on it. |
tommy two feathers
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:20:00 -
[349] - Quote
would it be worth it to have a kill right last longer too and maybe sell it like a commodity for isk? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1456
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:38:00 -
[350] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:baltec1 wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:
The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.
You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk. Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too.... Even then it takes a few seconds for the freighter to get up to speed before they can web it, easily enough time for someone to lock it and get a point on it.
Which puts the freighter at greater risk than the hauler since the gank guys have to use bumping, and with a webber you could avoid that more often than not.
So, you want to haul 3 billion in cargo...get a webbing ship to help you out. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1457
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:54:00 -
[351] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:tommy two feathers wrote:why not make it so they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!! You may want to look up what crimewatch does.
Since I doubt people will look it up...let me help:
Quote:Suspect Timer
Only applicable in Empire-owned space (0.1 to 1.0), the Suspect Flag allows any other player to attack you without penalty for the duration of the timer. CONCORD and gate guns will not defend you, and the attacker will not receive a reduction in Security Standings.The Suspect flag lasts for 15 minutes, and actions that will activate the flag differ depending on the Security Status of the solar system. Pod killing a capsuleer with an active Suspect Timer will not result in security status loss or CONCORD response.
In high-security space, you can acquire a Suspect flag by stealing from a container or wreck, and by providing a remote assistance to other players in possession of an active Suspect Flag, Criminal Flag or Limited Engagement, or players who have Outlaw status (have -5 Security Status or lower). You can also be given a Suspect flag if a player activates a kill right on you.
In low-security space, targeting a player's ship (not their capsule) with any offensive module, including Smartbombs and other non-targeted weapons, will provoke a Suspect flag. Stealing from a container will also provoke the flag, though assisting outlaw players in low security space will not.
Emphasized some of the important parts.
tommy two feathers wrote: would it be worth it to have a kill right last longer too and maybe sell it like a commodity for isk?
You can do that already.
Link.
As for the length of time, IIRC it is 14 days. |
Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:30:00 -
[352] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:The first idea would allow people to go in first with some war ships and clear the way. It would add risk in the form of PVP for the Suicide Gankers. They are already doing some kind of PVP but now their targets might actually shoot back.
An addition can be made, as in during the 3day(actual number to be decided) period any Suicide Ganker should be allowed, if he wants to, to pay a fine(fine value should be directly related to the ISK value of the items/ships he destroyed, not an equal value by all means, but 5% to 10% of that value). Paying the find would end the time period in which he can be attacked by anyone.
This is a bad idea, if your people are too stupid to figure out how to shoot a freighter, how the hell do you expect them to manage to take on a guy in a combat ship?
My people?:-)
I know you are here to reject every idea but all of them would work.
Some would have a lot more impact than others, but they would all work.
Also, out of the whole EVE population i am sure some know how to take on guys in PVP ships. They can`t now, but given the possibility players might decide to hunt you just like you hunt haulers. And if nobody does well, it is a player driven Universe, if they could do it but nobody does then... you have nothing to worry nothing would change for you. |
Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:37:00 -
[353] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Lol, when I read the thread title my first thought was "the only realistic approach to punish an immortal money hoarding, amoral demigod would be to let him pay the insurance of the ship he destroyed illegally." I had to smile about my own bad idea for poping into my head like that.
Something like that was suggested but they argued that they should be allowed to grief people all day... CCP can stop them at at point by doing that anyway.
Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
376
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:56:00 -
[354] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy.
But they are protected already. Unlike the ganker's looter, who can be shot freely without CONCORD intervention. |
Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:09:00 -
[355] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy. But they are protected already. Unlike the ganker's looter, who can be shot freely without CONCORD intervention.
Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.
Then it might protect people in some ganks, as it would arrive before the victim is destroyed. And it would not be PREDICTABLE as nobody would know if they arrive in 2 seconds or in 15.
So i will say it again maybe the 4th time you read it(it was said before) you will actually get it.
In its current state, CONCORD is not protecting anyone. You can calculate the exact response time based on the security status of the system, so any Suicide Ganker knows how much time it has to kill the victim. All they need is enough DPS. Then CONCORD shows up, kills the Suicide Gankers but leaves the loot intact, allowing the freighter associated with the Suicide Ganker team to scoop up the loot.
It is a revenge mechanic, one that is not doing its job well as it is PREDICTABLE and does nothing for the Victim like locking its wreck down and destroying anyone stealing from it or whatever. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
376
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:21:00 -
[356] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.
I can't kill a Freighter in a frigate in high-sec (outside of war-decs) since CONCORD will kill me before the freighter dies. It protects the freighter from random attacks, so that a coordinated attack force is required to successfully kill it.
But, let's go with your suggestion:
What would be the appropriate reduction in reward for the lowered risk? No more high-sec incursions? No more level 4 missions in high-sec? A fee for jumping high-sec gates in haulers?
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Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:29:00 -
[357] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds. I can't kill a Freighter in a frigate in high-sec (outside of war-decs) since CONCORD will kill me before the freighter dies. It protects the freighter from random attacks, so that a coordinated attack force is required to successfully kill it. But, let's go with your suggestion: What would be the appropriate reduction in reward for the lowered risk? No more high-sec incursions? No more level 4 missions in high-sec? A fee for jumping high-sec gates in haulers?
None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now. And some of the proposed changes actually make sense, like allowing people(not just the victim) to shoot a Suicide Ganker without CONCORD intervention. CONCORD looks the other way when you scoop the loot, but they also look the other way when people come to stop you from doing it again.
Suicide Gankers shoot targets what can`t even shoot back... and not like haulers will come and claim their kill right. As they are haulers. But with the idea nr. 1 other people might come for you. It is a Player Controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits EVE Online.
If nobody comes, like your fellow Suicide Gankers seem to think, there is no added risk for you. But if they come together and decide to stop you, they can actually do it now, in PVP, the EVE way. PVP`ers hunting Griefers. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
376
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:35:00 -
[358] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:Suicide Gankers shoot targets what can`t even shoot back... and not like haulers will come and claim their kill right. As they are haulers. But with the idea nr. 1 other people might come for you. It is a Player Controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits EVE Online.
Killrights are transferable, so they can easily be assigned to high-quality merc corps - you know, other players, to have player controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits Eve Online.
Why should NPCs help you if you fail to adequately protect your assets? |
baltec1
Bat Country
8450
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 21:12:00 -
[359] - Quote
Freedom Equality wrote:
None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.
30-40 freighters a month.
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Freedom Equality
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:09:00 -
[360] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Freedom Equality wrote:
None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.
30-40 freighters a month.
Some of them worth 20bil+, most of them in the 3 to 7bil range... not to mention mission ships and mining barges.
Ever looked at how many Mining Barges die? I have seen a dude yesterday already had killed 9bil worth of mining barges this month. Don`t believe me, check he KB.(i`d say who but i don`t want to target a specific group/corp) That`s a lot of unhappy miners. And his losses totaled 0.33bil. So he lost 330 mil while doing damage worth 9bil - as it only takes 1 ganker(max 2) to take out a mining barge safely.
So as you can see, a lot more than 30-40 people are affected by this, not to mention the ISK damage caused to the victims. |
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