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Vegeir
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Posted - 2006.02.08 21:31:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Vegeir on 08/02/2006 21:33:07 Qouted from the chronicle Their value is indescribable. Functioning for those who own them as a mobile base of operations as well as a flagship, Titans turn the tides of war with their mere presence. Aside from their blistering armament and many-metres-thick armour, they boast the ability to transport entire fleets within their hulks across entire star systems.
Qouted from and online dictionary: "Many" Amounting to or consisting of a large indefinite number
1600mm Steel plating is an addition to armor, measuring 1.6meters in thickness. It adds 2400HP of armor.
So a Titan, which is qouted to use many (a large number) of meters thick armor should have how much armor?
Would 20 meters be many meters? An apocalypse has 6k base Armor that's equivalent to 4 meters thickness using 1600mm plate as a basis. An Archon Carrier 18meters thick, the Aeon Mothership 36.6meters thick, and an amarrian titan 46.6m armor.
Now let's look at size and mass. Apoc 107.5mil kg , Archon 1.0125 Billion KG, Aeon 1.2375 Billion KG, Avatar 1.6875 Billion kg
Strangely the Mothership which is less then 1/10th the physical dimensions of a Titan has 73% of it's mass. Using the ship chart J0sephine we can deduce size increase too
Apoc - .1075Bil KG - 4m armor Archon - 1.0125Bil Kg - 18m armor - 2-3x as big as Apoc Aeon - 1.2375bil Kg - 36.6m armor - 2-3x as big as archon Avatar - 1.6785bil Kg - 46.6m armor - easily 10x as big as Aeon
So you have an increase in mass of: 1,000% -> 20% -> 27% An increase in armor of: 4,500% -> 200% -> 27% an increase in size of: 300% -> 300% -> 1,000%
I agree with dark shikari. It just does not add up. One the mass of titans should be enormously higher then it is. But aside from that the armor should be a much higher increase. 27% more armor then a mothership is just ridiculous.
Originally by: Vegeir
Experience exists in EVE, it just isn't measured in numbers.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.02.08 21:32:00 -
[32]
Titan allows you to do the following:
Set up cyno field Jump titan in to spot of your choice Rebirth entire fleet to titan OMGWTFPWN anyone in system
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.02.08 21:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Titan allows you to do the following:
Set up cyno field Jump titan in to spot of your choice Rebirth entire fleet to titan OMGWTFPWN anyone in system
Except, you can do that by taking over their conquerable stations, and it doesn't cost 120bil and months of mining/production. And you won't even get to do that much, because its not exactly hard to spot hostiles filling up local.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.02.08 21:41:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Titan allows you to do the following:
Set up cyno field Jump titan in to spot of your choice Rebirth entire fleet to titan OMGWTFPWN anyone in system
It's still unclear to me how this works?
You are in a system, do the jump portal generator and that's it, your entire fleet can jump there? No number restrictions or anything? All jump at once or with each activation? Fuel consumed by each ship jumping? In the meantime can everyone in the system warp to you? (like when opening cynofield) etc etc etc |
Meridius
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Posted - 2006.02.08 21:43:00 -
[35]
Titans are massive, there HP should represent that.
It just doesn't make sense that they have similar HP to that of a dreadnought. Look at how huge they are ffs. They should have around 200k armor/shield/structure.
If you disagree, go back to grade 2. ________________________________________________________
WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran <Narcissus> I read Meridius is always correct on Wikipedia once |
Baun
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Posted - 2006.02.08 22:47:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Baun on 08/02/2006 22:49:11
Originally by: Twin blade Well motherships are just carrier's with a a bigger fighter bay and cargo bay so i can sort of see why there HP is close but titan's god know's.
Motherships have clone bays and are immune to EW.
Anyway, given how crummy the doomsday weapons are, Titans need alot of HP or maybe some sort of built in siege function that doesn't mess up their tracking.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.08 22:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 08/02/2006 22:49:11
Originally by: Twin blade Well motherships are just carrier's with a a bigger fighter bay and cargo bay so i can sort of see why there HP is close but titan's god know's.
Motherships have clone bays and are immune to EW.
Anyway, given how crummy the doomsday weapons are, Titans need alot of HP or maybe some sort of built in siege function that doesn't mess up their tracking.
whats wrong with the doomsday weapon? 37.5k burst dmg iirc will instapop anything under a tanked BS
pop all non tanked ships bar capital ships and with a massive range. -------------------Sig-----------------------
PROJECTILES ARE FINE FINE I TELL YA WTF DO U THINK IS WRONG WITH THEM? DONT GIVE ME THE BULL**** ABOUT DPS |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.08 22:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I'm pretty convinced Titan HP is a joke, and most of the people here commenting probably have no idea what kind of firepower is involved in an average sized fleet battle.
Lets do some math, shall we?
-Dual Capital Armor Reps on Avatar.. (not even sure if thats sustainable without officer mods but meh..) -9600 per rep, 19,200 for both. -30 second cycle time, reduced to 22.5 seconds with that hefty skill at V. -853.3 HP repaired per second -assuming 86% average resists with 64% hardeners and gang skills.. -complete tanking ability of 6095 raw hitpoints per second -assuming average of raw 750 dps per battleship..
That comes to a majestic number of EIGHT BATTLESHIPS required to break the tank on a Titan. By comparison, using the same math and values, a Revelation can take on THIRTY TWO BATTLESHIPS before its tank begins to fail.
And purely for my own amusement, assuming a force of 20 battleships, the Titan would go pop in thirty seconds under sustained fire. Thats 70billion isk for the bpo, weeks of hauling, months of training and construction, 50billion in minerals gone in thirty seconds.
I guess this is why CCP tried to distinguish them from Empire Titans, which had millions and millions of hitpoints.
QFT. -- Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Baun
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Posted - 2006.02.08 22:55:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 08/02/2006 22:49:11
Originally by: Twin blade Well motherships are just carrier's with a a bigger fighter bay and cargo bay so i can sort of see why there HP is close but titan's god know's.
Motherships have clone bays and are immune to EW.
Anyway, given how crummy the doomsday weapons are, Titans need alot of HP or maybe some sort of built in siege function that doesn't mess up their tracking.
whats wrong with the doomsday weapon? 37.5k burst dmg iirc will instapop anything under a tanked BS
pop all non tanked ships bar capital ships and with a massive range.
Its just a bit underwhelming. No one is going to sit still with a Titan in the system.
But I think an in born Titan siege mode makes alot of sense :O
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Benglada
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Posted - 2006.02.08 23:15:00 -
[40]
Isnt thier a mod that gets you 10% of your armor (works like an plate but as a percentage) so therefore you can have like 7,500 armor per one of these? so you could put like another 30k of armor on it.. ---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.08 23:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Benglada Isnt thier a mod that gets you 10% of your armor (works like an plate but as a percentage) so therefore you can have like 7,500 armor per one of these? so you could put like another 30k of armor on it..
Yeah but nobody is going to gimp their tank to get another 30k armor.
Titans need more hitpoints, as in 1 million or 500,000 hitpoints minimum. Maybe a few million.
The current 70k or so is very underwhelming. -- Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.02.08 23:26:00 -
[42]
Being big doesn't mean a lot of hit points, it just means there's a lot of vital systems to protect (hit points is an indication/avarage of when damage goes critical). Now, were it more realistic, you'd be able to bore critical holes in certain parts of the hull, while other part would still be fully protected. However... meh!
The real issue is that Motherships and Titans aren't getting super-powered reps/boosters. Sure, they can bugger off almost any time (provided cyno field in nearby system and 70% cap), especially since they are immune to NOS/Neuts (afaik). They just can't stick around and tank a larger fleet.
On the other hand, maybe a LOT more hit points is preferable, since the damned things shouldn't be invulnerable. Invlunerable ships, no matter the cost/cause, is just plain BAD.
Woe on the devs who made: Ares & Raptor Gall Recons Eris & Heretic |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.08 23:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Benglada Isnt thier a mod that gets you 10% of your armor (works like an plate but as a percentage) so therefore you can have like 7,500 armor per one of these? so you could put like another 30k of armor on it..
Yeah but nobody is going to gimp their tank to get another 30k armor.
Titans need more hitpoints, as in 1 million or 500,000 hitpoints minimum. Maybe a few million.
The current 70k or so is very underwhelming.
or better yet natural t2 resistances. with 250k hp. -------------------Sig-----------------------
PROJECTILES ARE FINE FINE I TELL YA WTF DO U THINK IS WRONG WITH THEM? DONT GIVE ME THE BULL**** ABOUT DPS |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2006.02.08 23:39:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 08/02/2006 23:42:12 Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 08/02/2006 23:40:57 Titans shuld have some sort of "anchor mode" in wich they represent a station, and are celestial objekt that alows warping to option.
This whuld increase theye HP to a station lvl's + tank and booster.
Also, it can shoot ^^ and launch doomsday wepon, other than that, it acts as a space station. (refine, factory, refit, hangars, etc...)
it will take some time to anchot/unachor it tho, like 1 to 3 hours or so...
edit Also, they shuld be able to anchor anywhere, and not nececerly visible to all as celestial objekt. So you need system scan for it. But given 3h long achor times, its possible to find before it runns off..
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Daedalus Maxwell
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Posted - 2006.02.09 04:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Asurix
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Asurix dude carriers have 25k armor, titans 70k, wtf are you talking about?
And?
A Titan is vastly larger than a dreadnought or carrier and should have a lot more than 3x more armor than a carrier and 1.5x more than a dread.
Something that costs 75 billion shouldn't be able to be blown up in 30 seconds because the pilot lagged for a bit and was unable to warp out.
A Titan isn't supposed to be an I-Win button like anything else in game. Use it with care and don't fly it into a stupid fleet battle! A titan sitting 10 jumps away with his gang bonusses alone is uber, let alone the doomsday weapon launched through a cyno field
Bull****, if I spend 150 billion bucks on a something that better be an I-Win button otherwise what in the nine hells of dante would be the point when you'd have more capability fielding 10 motherships or about 100+ carriers? I've said a long time ago Titans should be similar to what the devs showed off, namely having millions of HP in shields and armor, taking them down should involve hundreds of people or more and not just in 10 minutes either. Outside of a prestige symbol right now a Titan doesn't have a lot going for it.
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DarK
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Posted - 2006.02.09 04:31:00 -
[46]
Jesus.
Those who are going "omg a titan isn't an I-win button, it's supposed to be *insert role here*" need to silence themselves.
120 billion isk dictates that they should have ****loads of HP. They shouldn't be unkillable, but they should be on that end of the killability scale.
Doesn't need tankability, it needs survivability and that is all.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.09 04:45:00 -
[47]
While they were worked on, titan prototype had basically copy-and-paste stats of your typical conquerable station (including 50 mil hp of hit points)
Which i thought was pretty neat; tad bit extreme perhaps, but given their size, expenses and logistics needed to build one... it damn sure should take at least multiple dreadnaughts sieging it for considerable while, in order to tear it down. So at least few million hp on them could be expected. (the shield recharge rate could be set to near 0, so Pottsey wouldn't build infinite passive tank machine on one ... if it was seen as problem)
The current hp stats are... meh :/
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BirdBleed
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Posted - 2006.02.09 05:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Asurix Titan's aren't meant to kill POS or tank a whole fleet. They're meant as a mobile station. This is a role it's good at, and what you guys are saying is you want another role for the titan.
so let me get this straight .... a station can last 20 mins with a few dreads + fleet of bships firing at it .... yet a mobile station (titan) which costs 4-5 times more than an outpost (which cannot be destroyed) is suppose to pop within 30 seconds ?
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BirdBleed
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Posted - 2006.02.09 06:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Asurix
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Asurix dude carriers have 25k armor, titans 70k, wtf are you talking about?
And?
A Titan is vastly larger than a dreadnought or carrier and should have a lot more than 3x more armor than a carrier and 1.5x more than a dread.
Something that costs 75 billion shouldn't be able to be blown up in 30 seconds because the pilot lagged for a bit and was unable to warp out.
A Titan isn't supposed to be an I-Win button like anything else in game. Use it with care and don't fly it into a stupid fleet battle! A titan sitting 10 jumps away with his gang bonusses alone is uber, let alone the doomsday weapon launched through a cyno field
a titan sitting 10 jumps away is useless seeing as he has to be in the same grid for the gang bonusses to take effect, same grid = down and dirty in a fleet battle.
Doomsday weapon, same thing, u have to be in the same system, meaning an enemy fleet can use probes/warp cov ops to cyno field when u enter system, warp to the titan and pop u within 30 seconds. The doomsday weapon will also kill your fleet as well so if u are primary in a fleet fight, and u activate the doomsday device, goodbye both fleets. And if you dont kill enough of the enemy, u cant use your doomsday device for another 60 hours or something like that.
These things need more hitpoints or theres no point in building them
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Chribba
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Posted - 2006.02.09 09:25:00 -
[50]
Altho I do agree with that the titan should have more armor/etc, but is there anything that prevents the titan from simply jumping out as a countermeasure to being unable to warp due to bumping?
Maybe it needs a force field that bounces off every ship around it so it can warp...
And Empire Titans FTW! Just make sure they can fit them Capital Strip Miners heee
EVE-Files | EVE-Search | Get Email if thread updates |
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Sokra
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Posted - 2006.02.09 09:40:00 -
[51]
donno if it¦s a myth but interdictor sphere probes prevent a mothership from jumping and warping. But the only entity confirming this, would be BOB, the devs don¦t talk much these days
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.02.09 10:16:00 -
[52]
Just something to point out which most people seem to have missed. Regarding the doomsday weapon the skill required to use it increase the damage by 10% per level. This brings it back up to the 50+k damage it initially had during testing. Now stop whining about that particular thing and go back to discussing how little hp titans have :p.
The mothership could use a hefty hp increase as well. Especially considering interdictor spheres will most likely get fixed so that you can't warp out of them if you've hit the warp button before they get deployed.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Jaqs
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Posted - 2006.02.09 19:46:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Jaqs on 09/02/2006 19:56:24 Those doomsday weapons are mainly for taking out or mostly hostile fleets whatever the make up that would somewhow get too close to the titan.Obviously a bunch of other uses but thats the main one. Titans should defently be like they were when devs were showing off in testing.
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2006.02.09 20:04:00 -
[54]
Granted the Titans seen pre-RMR were more dev 'playthings', and the new titans are meant to be smaller versions but still... those did have starbase-scale hitpoints.
1-2M hitpoints in armour/shield would not really be that overpowering considering the damage output from larger fleets.
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Twin blade
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Posted - 2006.02.09 20:10:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Twin blade on 09/02/2006 20:11:46 Even if we give them a massive hp boost then how do we kill them yes they need the boost but there has to be away to kill one as well.
Boost hp you need to stop it beening able to run when ever it need's.
Allow it to be jammed and you end up with how 1 frig can jam a titan forever when its built to resist Ewar.
Its not some thing that saying wack 5000k more armor on and allow it to be jammed and saying there fixed.
I think it needs a good boost say 500k armor base and build in a siege mode much like a dread. Then you have a titan able to tank but can not move put a delay of say 10 mins befor it is able to move after it turn's siege mode off. That way you have a titan that can be killed but is worth the cost of building and using it in a fleet fight.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.09 20:32:00 -
[56]
Edited by: j0sephine on 09/02/2006 20:32:57
"Altho I do agree with that the titan should have more armor/etc, but is there anything that prevents the titan from simply jumping out as a countermeasure to being unable to warp due to bumping?"
Lack of necessary capacitor level to perform jump, due to cap drain and plain tanking (if i understand it right)
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Lagar
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Posted - 2006.02.09 21:02:00 -
[57]
if you can afford a titan you can afford the whole slave implant set.. thus improving the armor HP by alittle over 50% giving alot more armor
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KrakizBad
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Posted - 2006.02.09 21:31:00 -
[58]
I like the idea about being able to anchor yourself. Sense it's a mobile structure esentially, that would be cool. Make you have anchoring lvl 5 along with some other absurd skills you wouldn't normally train to 5.
Another bit i am thinking is in regards to the issue of Super tank versus ew resist. I think maybe a compromise could be reached here. They could do something similar to titans they did with blockade runners. Just build in warp strength. Give them like 100. On first glance that seems huge. But you could get a frig fleet of 25 ships with 2x 2 strength scramblers to hold him down. Or you could put scramblers on scorpions to make them more useful in this post rmr galaxy of ours. Then on top of this ou could add the tons of hp you all want.
In my head that would create this scenario: Titan warps in with his fleet. The enemy fleet engages and gets the required scramblers on him. Make it so it takes about 10 min. for a large fleet to down him. This gives the titans group a period where they can kill off the scramblers to save their titan, or pop off the dmg dealers and hopefully out tank them long enough to criple their forces.
Imho this would eliminate the conflict of super tank versus unscrambleable (there's a dubya word for you, lol)
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.02.09 21:59:00 -
[59]
Unfrotunately if the titan had a million hitpoints it could be used in POS assualts.
Heck it could solo POS'.
But even without guns it could just remote boost a dread or tow and wham, you have three guys taking territory.
not saying I agree with it, just saying that is thier logic.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.02.09 22:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gierling Unfrotunately if the titan had a million hitpoints it could be used in POS assualts.
Heck it could solo POS'.
But even without guns it could just remote boost a dread or tow and wham, you have three guys taking territory.
not saying I agree with it, just saying that is thier logic.
I very much doubt that, check the calculations on page 2 that I did. Even if you had hitpoints your Titan would get obliterated in a matter of minutes. I fail to see why a Titan can't be used against POS, it has 5-6 XL weapon hardpoints after all, those are relatively useless in a fleet battle.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
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