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Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
510
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 18:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Weaselior wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote: lol...obviously you didn't read even one post. Just trolling around :D...again shows me that i am right
your post was entirely "proper balance would require effort on my part to get what i want" my mockery was directly on point - Seed 1-2 regions of siphon units (20 moons) - Get to them back in 2-4 hours to return the isk invested (depends on moons) - Get again back to them in 2-4 hours to scoop the profit Go to sleep. Repeat this every day for at least 3 months to have any effect on a bigger entity. Why repeat everyday? Simply because they will be or destroyed or stolen from the next day. And this is for the price of 2 mil per siphon unit. You call this no effort? It is huge effort. Almost impossible tbh for most of the lowsec or 0.0 NPC entities. Now imagine for the current prices of 12 mil. It is 6 times that effort to only return the invested. It is billions and billions monthly to cover only 1-2 regions. As i said atm it is only "Big boys grief tool" Be objective man. Seriously, if you are some scrub poor who cannot afford a few hundred siphons a month maybe you should be making ISK in other parts of EVE first.
CCP -----------------------> that way Moan to them about the state in lowsec. I tried but they don't listen :D
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Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 18:33:00 -
[62] - Quote
hmmm. Seems to me that there might be a business opportunity here that folks are missing; something to supplement their pre-siphon income.
For example, make arrangements with a tower(s) owner(s) to not get killed by the POS and regularly (weekly or bi weekly) submit kill mails of destroyed siphons on their towers. Get paid 20mil? 40mil? a siphon. You provide an industry protection service that they do not have to be bothered with.
Of course if they do not pay you litter their towers with your own (or an alt hint hint) siphons. Or maybe you lite a cyno next to their tower.
Ah the possibilities... |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
230
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 18:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Weaselior wrote:GǪ the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be. If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something. If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from. In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons). There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves. Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible. Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration. sorry but if your lowsec corp is not able to actually make couple hundred millions daily, you are doing it wrong.
i live in lowsec, and i have been there for almost 2 years, and i can do myself 200+ millions daily if i need / want to, without any moons and without playing all day long (i have regular full time job and stuff...).
and our corp can make several time this using various methods, and IF corp really needed money badly, a ew of us are ready to run whatever is required to actually put money in the wallet, hell let's say 4 of us during a week giving all our earnings to corp, damn that would make around 800 to 1B / day! for 4 ppl
in a nutshell: l2eve |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
510
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Weaselior wrote:GǪ the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be. If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something. If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from. In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons). There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves. Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible. Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration. sorry but if your lowsec corp is not able to actually make couple hundred millions daily, you are doing it wrong. i live in lowsec, and i have been there for almost 2 years, and i can do myself 200+ millions daily if i need / want to, without any moons and without playing all day long (i have regular full time job and stuff...). and our corp can make several time this using various methods, and IF corp really needed money badly, a ew of us are ready to run whatever is required to actually put money in the wallet, hell let's say 4 of us during a week giving all our earnings to corp, damn that would make around 800 to 1B / day for 7 days, it's between 4.8 and 7 B! with just 4 ppl now i see 104ppl in your corp, let's assume half are alts, still around 50 ppl, if with that you are not able to actually put anything up to actually found the corp....damn..... in a nutshell: l2eve
Mate don't be delusional pleas,e if it is that easy now every BALEX member would have a SC and 2 Dread alts just for lols. And imagine then in nullsec where they can do the same things for much greater profit. They wouldn't need nor moon nor renters. You are speaking about Utopia.
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Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
510
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:hmmm. Seems to me that there might be a business opportunity here that folks are missing; something to supplement their pre-siphon income.
For example, make arrangements with a tower(s) owner(s) to not get killed by the POS and regularly (weekly or bi weekly) submit kill mails of destroyed siphons on their towers. Get paid 20mil? 40mil? a siphon. You provide an industry protection service that they do not have to be bothered with.
Of course if they do not pay you litter their towers with your own (or an alt hint hint) siphons. Or maybe you lite a cyno next to their tower.
Ah the possibilities...
Yeah the possibilities would be there, but with these costs there won't be siphons on moons :DDDD Believe me we thought about pretty much the same things |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1351
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 20:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
The fundamental issue with these is CCP has to find a balance between allowing the "little guy" a mechanic he can use vs not allowing the big guys to rock the entire economy with what we consider pocket change.
I assure you that to someone like me 10's of billions to keep regions spammed for months on end is nothing and well within the range of doable. Hand them out like candy and have people spam. I do not seek the goo just the suffering and economic disruption.
On the flip side, you have the little guy who wants to siphon off some sweet goo and make a little ISK or just attempt to be a thorn in someones side.
Well, you can't balance on limits per person. We have thousands. (this suggestion by CCP was hilariously shameful)
You can't balance on ISK alone, we got plenty and the "little guy doesn't" evidently. Though it is shameful you consider 12m expensive. They should be 2-3x that as the earn back period is still very fast compared to how often the average (non-alliance) tower owner will login.
You can balance on opportunity costs for scale though which is effectively what they have tried to do with their capacity nerf. It means the run time per abandoned siphon is less. Meaning 9 per tower now. It encourages people to actually stick around their siphon and use it rather than mass spamming and laughing at large sums of goo are destroyed and stolen or blown up and who knows what.
They aren't perfect as they were designed wrong. It is still a fairly silly mechanic that could have been done so much better to actually promote interaction. But at least they aren't quite the mass economic disruption and galaxy wide griefing tool they were before. Though they still are to some degree. I know we will utilize them quite a lot.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4258
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 21:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fundamental issue with these is CCP has to find a balance between allowing the "little guy" a mechanic he can use vs not allowing the big guys to rock the entire economy with what we consider pocket change.
GǪ
Well, you can't balance on limits per person. We have thousands. (this suggestion by CCP was hilariously shameful)
More to the point, there are enough members in your alliance that the small percentage of people who enjoy poring over spreadsheets and arranging calendars and being space accountants is measured in whole integer numbers of people.
Aryth wrote:They aren't perfect as they were designed wrong. It is still a fairly silly mechanic that could have been done so much better to actually promote interaction.
LOL. Having the siphon steal stuff from silos, rather than extract stuff from the flow of processing, would work much better for you since you can simply defend yourself from siphons by emptying your silos every few hours. Again, you have the numbers to make such janitorial work trivial. Siphoning off from the actual flow of production means the mechanic is less easily defended against.
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seth Hendar
I love you miners
235
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 22:39:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Weaselior wrote:GǪ the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be. If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something. If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from. In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons). There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves. Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible. Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration. sorry but if your lowsec corp is not able to actually make couple hundred millions daily, you are doing it wrong. i live in lowsec, and i have been there for almost 2 years, and i can do myself 200+ millions daily if i need / want to, without any moons and without playing all day long (i have regular full time job and stuff...). and our corp can make several time this using various methods, and IF corp really needed money badly, a ew of us are ready to run whatever is required to actually put money in the wallet, hell let's say 4 of us during a week giving all our earnings to corp, damn that would make around 800 to 1B / day for 7 days, it's between 4.8 and 7 B! with just 4 ppl now i see 104ppl in your corp, let's assume half are alts, still around 50 ppl, if with that you are not able to actually put anything up to actually found the corp....damn..... in a nutshell: l2eve Mate don't be delusional pleas,e if it is that easy now every BALEX member would have a SC and 2 Dread alts just for lols. And imagine then in nullsec where they can do the same things for much greater profit. They wouldn't need nor moon nor renters. You are speaking about Utopia. don't be a fool, this can be done easy, as for the supers, raising the money is not the only issue, getting them is a bit harer, and more, is actually keeping it in lowsec and having ause to it i can fly one, afford one, but still i don't have one, because i don't need it
plus, the supply is scarce (on purpose)
nullsec can pull way more
if you don't know how to make that much in low, i suggest you take a look at what is happening there, between mission anoms and clones, you can actually do this easy in 3h, even more if u are lucky on anoms drop |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
272
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 00:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
There is a very simple solution to this perceived lack of profits per siphon. People just need to jack up the prices of moon goo and voila . Now get to it. |
Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Axhind wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Weaselior wrote:GǪ the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be. If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something. If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from. In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons). There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves. Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible. Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration. Maybe you elite PvPers can take a break from hiding behind cloaks and go run an L4? If each of your 10 members does one GE or AE then each can afford 4 siphons. If you have issues making 10 mil here and there than you seriously need to up your game. On the other hand I see how you want a free isk printing machine but with the moon nerf that is renters and sadly your are obviously not able to play with the big boys in 0.0. While on it the reason you can't play with the big boys is exactly why you will not be able to benefit from siphons. You can't coordinate properly. In other words you want to say that i am right that siphons ARE to expensive and i need to throw my life away so i can earn isk for a proper siphon seeding campaign that will result in a big - in my pocket and nothing else. Think before posting. I know you guys in goonswarm are used to some brainless posting, but cmn this is a serious topic.
Maybe I should switch language so you understand better?
Everything in eve costs isk. That's how you get ships and equipment. Siphons are cheap. 10 mil is not amount of isk that is hard to make for anyone who is not newbie in the game. If nothing else you can join fw with an alt and more or less print isk for almost no effort what so ever. Doesn't even need a lot of SP or an expensive ship. That will not force you to go to high sec or 0.0 sec if you have reasons not to want to go there.
Problem here is that you want free isk thrown at you so you can deploy siphons from a cloaky ship and brag around how elite you are, annoying alliances who are actually organised and worked hard to achieve what they have. No such luck sadly, you will have to work for it. I'm sure you fly ships that are more valuable than 10 mil so it obviously is possible to make those levels of isk even for you.
PS: Da manje sjedite na kavama mo++da bi imali iska za siphone :p |
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Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:There is a very simple solution to this perceived lack of profits per siphon. People just need to jack up the prices of moon goo and voila . Now get to it.
What do you think will happen? The more siphons are deployed and the more goo they destroy the higher prices due to lower supply. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
268
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 08:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fundamental issue with these is CCP has to find a balance between allowing the "little guy" a mechanic he can use vs not allowing the big guys to rock the entire economy with what we consider pocket change.
...
You can balance on opportunity costs for scale though which is effectively what they have tried to do with their capacity nerf. It means the run time per abandoned siphon is less. Meaning 9 per tower now. It encourages people to actually stick around their siphon and use it rather than mass spamming and laughing at large sums of goo are destroyed and stolen or blown up and who knows what.
At this point the simplest approach is to shift the limit from per character to per grid. That will at least encourage daily effort to keep denial going, rather than just dropping 50 of the things at once and letting them fill up one at a time over days. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
511
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:20:00 -
[73] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fundamental issue with these is CCP has to find a balance between allowing the "little guy" a mechanic he can use vs not allowing the big guys to rock the entire economy with what we consider pocket change.
I assure you that to someone like me 10's of billions to keep regions spammed for months on end is nothing and well within the range of doable. Hand them out like candy and have people spam. I do not seek the goo just the suffering and economic disruption.
On the flip side, you have the little guy who wants to siphon off some sweet goo and make a little ISK or just attempt to be a thorn in someones side.
Well, you can't balance on limits per person. We have thousands. (this suggestion by CCP was hilariously shameful)
You can't balance on ISK alone, we got plenty and the "little guy doesn't" evidently. Though it is shameful you consider 12m expensive. They should be 2-3x that as the earn back period is still very fast compared to how often the average (non-alliance) tower owner will login.
You can balance on opportunity costs for scale though which is effectively what they have tried to do with their capacity nerf. It means the run time per abandoned siphon is less. Meaning 9 per tower now. It encourages people to actually stick around their siphon and use it rather than mass spamming and laughing at large sums of goo are destroyed and stolen or blown up and who knows what.
They aren't perfect as they were designed wrong. It is still a fairly silly mechanic that could have been done so much better to actually promote interaction. But at least they aren't quite the mass economic disruption and galaxy wide griefing tool they were before. Though they still are to some degree. I know we will utilize them quite a lot.
Be ti 10 millions or 2 millions, it is still pocket change or you, makes no difference. On the other hand for small guys it makes the feature viable or useless. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
511
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:37:00 -
[74] - Quote
Axhind wrote: Maybe I should switch language so you understand better?
Everything in eve costs isk. That's how you get ships and equipment. Siphons are cheap. 10 mil is not amount of isk that is hard to make for anyone who is not newbie in the game. If nothing else you can join fw with an alt and more or less print isk for almost no effort what so ever. Doesn't even need a lot of SP or an expensive ship. That will not force you to go to high sec or 0.0 sec if you have reasons not to want to go there.
Problem here is that you want free isk thrown at you so you can deploy siphons from a cloaky ship and brag around how elite you are, annoying alliances who are actually organised and worked hard to achieve what they have. No such luck sadly, you will have to work for it. I'm sure you fly ships that are more valuable than 10 mil so it obviously is possible to make those levels of isk even for you.
PS: Da manje sjedite na kavama mo++da bi imali iska za siphone :p
It is not about earning free isk. You will earn the same no meter the price of siphon. And profit with siphons are nothing really if your corp/alliance doesn't launch an organized campaign.
For example. If siphon units cost 2 millions on the best moons you would need some 4-5 hours to repay the siphon and earn some 2 mils per siphon.
So only if you are organised like hell and seed few regions (some 100 siphons) it means that the next day you will have enough money to replace the destroyed ones and earn some 200 mils a day (if they are not stolen form) Keeping up, checking100 siphons daily is not an easy job and those groups deserves every bit of isk they can squeeze.
So it is not metter about how much isk this feature can earn, it is about being viable and above all logical. As it is now it just doesn't have any sense except for the big entities budgets.
PS: Ko mi ka++e. Nisi u ++ivotu opuco na rata, sve vam je pla-çeno od AFK minanja. Zato ne seri :P
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
639
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:BTW, how may Hp those things have ? 70k. So - is there anyone who are going to use these things for profit? If there will be any profit at all...
The best chances are in some places where there is very little traffic and the tower is visited only every other day.. there peopel will use these to steal for proffit.
And no it will not be so easy to convince epopel to keep visiting each tower every few hours because the cost of doing so (taking a player cost of 50m/isk per hour .. that is a reasonable 0.0 player cost) might be higher than the profit of SOME of the towers.. so some of the towers migh e change hands because of that. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
511
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:48:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Lipbite wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:BTW, how may Hp those things have ? 70k. So - is there anyone who are going to use these things for profit? If there will be any profit at all... The best chances are in some places where there is very little traffic and the tower is visited only every other day.. there peopel will use these to steal for proffit. And no it will not be so easy to convince epopel to keep visiting each tower every few hours because the cost of doing so (taking a player cost of 50m/isk per hour .. that is a reasonable 0.0 player cost) might be higher than the profit of SOME of the towers.. so some of the towers migh e change hands because of that.
Nah siphons will be awful for making profit if you don't spam hundreds of them. It is mostly about denying profit to your enemies
The problem now is that you have to spend much more isk to deny a bit to your enemy, not logical at all right? Well, for the big guys it is fine. For them it is just a pocket change so they can further stomp on smaller entities.
On the other hand smaller entities will be broken long before your siphon attacks even tickle big entities like GSF, that's why they all are butthurt about this feature and crying all around forums.
And CCP can't see trough this because they are influenced by CSM candidates like Mynnna..simple as that. Mynnna you are such a bad, bad girl :D |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
674
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 14:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:You really think people who want to grief Goons with siphons are going to care about profits OP? Ahm yesss...my corp and quite few more lowsec entiteis and few more from npc 0.0. That is around 10 entities that i know about. Entities (corps, alliances) Because and i repeat again small groups can not grief any big entity in EVE if the price are expensive. We are poor, we don't have budget worth of billions isk for griefing for a longer period. We hardly have isk for replacing some key doctrine ships. If you grief a big entity you need to grief on larger scale (cover couple of regions) for quite few months. And believe me my corp is among the wealthier around lowsec or NPC 0.0 If it can't at least break even in one gaming session it is not worth it, simple as that.
You're supposed to be a corporation. You should only be worried about the bottom line. You should be having other income sources that can cover your losses from your attempted exploits against a larger entity. Profits shouldn't really matter from a grief if you really want to end up griefing someone. Sounds like you guys are out just to make some easy ISK, and not doing any actual griefing. |
Kirluin
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
I think the interesting angle to the siphon thing is not exactly the money you may (or may not) get from it, but rather forcing larger alliances to do patrols. The larger the empire, the smaller the patrols will probably be (i.e. it won't be a 100 ship blob checking every pos).
Which could make for lots of interesting smaller scale pvp opportunities. set up siphons, figure out their patrol schedule and hotdrop it, or take the goo if they don't show. lulz either way.
Of course, it could degenerate into passive moon income vs passive moon income stealing (which is boring), but hey, it's a sandbox. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5418
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote: For example, make arrangements with a tower(s) owner(s) to not get killed by the POS and regularly (weekly or bi weekly) submit kill mails of destroyed siphons on their towers. Get paid 20mil? 40mil? a siphon. You provide an industry protection service that they do not have to be bothered with..
if you're paying me 20m to kill siphons that cost 12m on your towers, guess who is going to be placing siphons on your towers |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:11:00 -
[80] - Quote
xttz wrote:players will drop them to simply deny enemy income with no intention to collect or profit on them.
suicide gankers don't kill miners to collect the minerals either. its not even done to deny income. both bumping and ganking are done for tears. are we to take it from your statement that this is a bad state of affairs, and perhaps it is griefing afterall?
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4450
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:58:00 -
[81] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:xttz wrote:players will drop them to simply deny enemy income with no intention to collect or profit on them.
suicide gankers don't kill miners to collect the minerals either. its not even done to deny income. both bumping and ganking are done for tears. are we to take it from your statement that this is a bad state of affairs, and perhaps it is griefing afterall? If goons are doing it, it is fine. But, if anyone does it to goons it is a broken mechanic and considered griefing.
Didn't you know? |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
511
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 18:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:GetSirrus wrote:xttz wrote:players will drop them to simply deny enemy income with no intention to collect or profit on them.
suicide gankers don't kill miners to collect the minerals either. its not even done to deny income. both bumping and ganking are done for tears. are we to take it from your statement that this is a bad state of affairs, and perhaps it is griefing afterall? If goons are doing it, it is fine. But, if anyone does it to goons it is a broken mechanic and considered griefing. Didn't you know?
I really don't care about the Goonies. Everyone knows that they follow only what can benefit their agenda, it is just a known fact. What bothers me the most is that a feature with such a potential will gonna be a flop. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 10:41:00 -
[83] - Quote
Kirluin wrote:I think the interesting angle to the siphon thing is not exactly the money you may (or may not) get from it, but rather forcing larger alliances to do patrols.
I think this is really telling of the underlying issue here. There seems to be a worrying number of players with a somewhat romanticized notion of 'space patrols', as they imagine people roleplaying mighty space empires defending their borders from interlopers.
The reality is that regular patrols to counteract dozens of small, cheap structures is incredibly boring gameplay-wise. Eve already has complaints over getting players to go out and shoot immobile objects during periods of war, and now we're extending this to every day. In 6 months time, what do you think the typical player reaction to the idea of a 'siphon patrol' will be? How excited would you be to login every day and roam around playing space whack-a-mole only for them to pop up again in a few hours?
Siphons do nothing to encourage player interaction. If anything, their ease of deployment from slippery/cloaky ships discourages it, as players spend their more of their online time sniffing out structures rather than fights. They're yet another game mechanic in the mould of "do this boring thing or you lose stuff".
GetSirrus wrote:xttz wrote:players will drop them to simply deny enemy income with no intention to collect or profit on them.
suicide gankers don't kill miners to collect the minerals either. its not even done to deny income. both bumping and ganking are done for tears. are we to take it from your statement that this is a bad state of affairs, and perhaps it is griefing after all?
Suicide ganking is really well balanced in comparison to siphons. Ship insurance is not paid out for high-sec suicide runs, meaning attackers have to deal with actual ISK losses on top of sec status issues restricting their actions. Ganks can be mitigated by staying to higher-security areas, carrying less valuable cargo, or fitting a decent tank. Most importantly; several players need to be online together, active and well-coordinated to inflict damage to another player with suicide ganks.
In comparison: Player-wise, siphons work in reverse to ganks. It takes one person dropping them to deny income to an entire corp, and they don't even need to stick around as they're fire-and-forget. 50mil ISK worth of siphons can deny 300mil* in raw material income with no further action required. Siphons directly affect T2 prices for everyone in the game. Suicide ganking typically affects single players. And the crux of the issue; two sides can engage in a resource-based war with siphons without their ships ever meeting in combat (or even passing each other in space). They basically encourage more dull structure-shooting with no incentive for an alternative.
* or more once r64 material costs start rising |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
55
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 18:44:00 -
[84] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:If the siphon takes more than a day to break even on even the best moons, no one will use them. Might as well scrap the whole thing and re-use the art assets for a later dev project that players might actually use.
Oh well...Rubicon still has the warp changes and cloaky ishtar going for it, I guess....
/expansion |
Ezekiel Ironstone
FISE Squad
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:10:00 -
[85] - Quote
xttz wrote:The reality is that regular patrols to counteract dozens of small, cheap structures is incredibly boring gameplay-wise. Eve already has complaints over getting players to go out and shoot immobile objects during periods of war, and now we're extending this to every day. In 6 months time, what do you think the typical player reaction to the idea of a 'siphon patrol' will be? How excited would you be to login every day and roam around playing space whack-a-mole only for them to pop up again in a few hours?
Then use it to your advantage. People who ignore fleet commands get dumped to syphon-duty for a week. Or rent out the position. Charge people to keep your sites secure for some side benefit to them that makes the rent payment worth it. Yes, there is the risk of someone using it to their advantage, but that's part of Eve.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2255
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:32:00 -
[86] - Quote
New profession: Siphon Scraping.
Go to null. Search for siphon units. Once you find one, go loot it. Repeat. |
Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 17:59:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ezekiel Ironstone wrote:xttz wrote:The reality is that regular patrols to counteract dozens of small, cheap structures is incredibly boring gameplay-wise. Eve already has complaints over getting players to go out and shoot immobile objects during periods of war, and now we're extending this to every day. In 6 months time, what do you think the typical player reaction to the idea of a 'siphon patrol' will be? How excited would you be to login every day and roam around playing space whack-a-mole only for them to pop up again in a few hours?
Then use it to your advantage. People who ignore fleet commands get dumped to syphon-duty for a week. Or rent out the position. Charge people to keep your sites secure for some side benefit to them that makes the rent payment worth it. Yes, there is the risk of someone using it to their advantage, but that's part of Eve.
Or use the coordination of CFC to break the t2 market and then profit from the stocks while everyone and their mother begs CCP to remove the siphon units as they are exactly as broken as goons said they would be.
How many times do we have to warn CCP about broken mechanics before people stop with the whole stupid "if goons are complaining it must be a good mechanic" |
Elvamerc
Appetite 4 Destruction
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 21:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'm not a big POS person although I've run my share of POS's before and I'm sure not very many people will like this but they may not like it specifically because it'll actually impact something. Initially when I heard about these Siphon units without reading about them I thought, "Wow that might be a good idea". Then I heard they only Siphon raw goods....
If you want to really make it able for the small guy to hurt the big guy then make these units have the ability to siphon fuel and stront from a POS and make it available to select which u want to siphon. That would really start to mess with big alliances and their hundreds of POS's. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
283
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 01:16:00 -
[89] - Quote
I couldn't find a siphon feedback thread so I'm posting here. Just spent the day messing about with siphons and here are my thoughts:
Hopelessly unbalanced.
It takes 4 siphon unit to completely shut down production at a moon mining pos. I know that is their purpose, but the problem is how difficult (easy) it is to deploy 4 siphon units at said pos. First of all, they will fit in a shoe-box with room for your sandwich. Way too small. Second, no need to anchor them once in space. It was ridiculous how easy it was to deploy these units. I used a T1 frig, warp to the target pos at 50km, align to something, chuck a siphon unit out the back and warp off. Rinse and repeat. Finally, too many HP's. If you have a pos network and someone decides to attack it with siphons, you are going to spend your entire day shooting these buggers.
I predict some major player burnout coming. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
65
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 05:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:I couldn't find a siphon feedback thread so I'm posting here. Just spent the day messing about with siphons and here are my thoughts:
Hopelessly unbalanced.
It takes 4 siphon unit to completely shut down production at a moon mining pos. I know that is their purpose, but the problem is how difficult (easy) it is to deploy 4 siphon units at said pos. First of all, they will fit in a shoe-box with room for your sandwich. Way too small. Second, no need to anchor them once in space. It was ridiculous how easy it was to deploy these units. I used a T1 frig, warp to the target pos at 50km, align to something, chuck a siphon unit out the back and warp off. Rinse and repeat. Finally, too many HP's. If you have a pos network and someone decides to attack it with siphons, you are going to spend your entire day shooting these buggers.
I predict some major player burnout coming.
Burn out like PI or maybe the hacking mini game? If that is the case then working as intended according to CCP.
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