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Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
116
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Posted - 2013.11.12 06:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Put simply, I am wondering what are some indicators when to let a buy or sell order sit while it fills vs fighting the bots in the .01 game?
While my question is simple enough, I am expecting the advice on the topic to be varied and complex. I am a very very inexperienced trader who barely has learned to crawl. Thus any help is welcome and useful. |
Dracnys
44
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Posted - 2013.11.12 08:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Depends on your patience and how much you need liquid ISK. If the price doesn't really change you should 0.01 ISK as much as possible. However sometimes people undercut the market by a lot, say 10%. Then you shouldn't just blindly follow, especially if they have only a small quantity to sell. Wait it out if you can or when it's really low consider buying them up. Sooner or later the price will normalize again. You can check the price history and see what prizes are "normal" for your good. If it takes too long or the undercutting order is very large and everyone is following with the lower price you have to take the loss. You can also use this as a tool. Just place a high buy order or a low sell order for something and wait. Very often lots of people with large orders will follow with a lower price. Now you can buy them up and relist at the old price! Just experiment with this a little and you'll get a feel for it. |
voetius
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
110
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Posted - 2013.11.12 08:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Each product is different although sometimes items in the same category can have similar characteristics. So there isn't going to be a general rule IMO.
Although I started out playing station trading games I now refuse to play .01 games so I've tried to determine a price point that I'm happy with for the products that I trade in where I can sell stuff at a profit and only update orders once per day at most.
This usually (but not always) means slim profits and I probably couldn't do it without a max skilled trader that has very high corp and faction standings.
I determined these prices just by experimenting to see at what point I could push most competition out of the market. You could probably achieve the same in less time by layering your orders, I mean by having e.g. 5 buy orders and 5 sell orders at different price points and leaving them for a few days to see at what point you can sell a reasonable volume.
The problems though are that prices can change over time and that your involvement in trading the items has an effect on the price so you will need to adjust.
I also speculate now and do "buy and hold" and "swing trading" so I'm not limited to the above items.
I'm hoping there will be some interesting replies |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
14
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Posted - 2013.11.12 08:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
For produced goods, the best indicator is underlying cost trends. If the underlying cost of an item is going up, by definition there is a supply-side shortage and almost without exception some under-capitalised producers will crap out, leading to a significant price spike. I've found that a 3% upwards cost trend is sufficient to park orders above the crowd to pick up significantly better profits.
However, when costs are flat or declining, you should compete in your regular fashion. I do it once a day, others like a more active approach.
I imagine for simple trade goods, tracking the ratio of sell vs. buy order quantities might be useful. SJ Astralana = Danari = Alak D'bor. I don't fuss about which account/toon is logged in, nor do I hide behind alts. |
Nanatoa
445
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Posted - 2013.11.12 09:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
If it's a bot and it's not a smart one, place a top buy order and use a portion of your stock to drop your sell price to 0.01 above the top buy order. "Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
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Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
291
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Posted - 2013.11.12 14:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nanatoa wrote:If it's a bot and it's not a smart one, place a top buy order and use a portion of your stock to drop your sell price to 0.01 above the top buy order. hmm that must be why i sometimes find large sell orders at that price for things i want to buy. Many thanks for the tip and also thanks to the people that set up these prices for me in the past here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1170
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Posted - 2013.11.13 23:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
If I'm holding 1000 of an item that sells 2000/day in the hub and I predict no underlying real value change, here's my approach. Let's say the item is Warrior II and the price spread is 380k-408k, and I have a sell order up for 950 of the item.
- Shallow undercut by a small order (0.01 ISK, 10 items) - 0.01 back but don't follow the order attentively. No big deal if you lose ten sales to them. - Shallow undercut by a large order (0.01 ISK, 700 items) - 0.01 back, and check the order again regularly. Don't stay logged in just to do this, but if logged in and in the region, check it every 5 minutes. Consider the nuclear undercut option below. - Medium undercut by a small order (5k ISK, 10 items) - Ignore it, let them get their stuff sold. Or buy them out if you fear a competitor with a large stack will counter-undercut them. - Medium undercut by a large order (5k ISK, 700 items) - Two choices here. If I've got ISK liquidity issues (say I want to invest 3b in Oneiros hulls because I think they are underpriced and so I need these Warriors gone) - counterundercut by 3k. The other option is to ignore the order and let them get the next 700 sales. This decision is not easy to make. - Deep undercut by a small order (15k ISK, 10 items) - Buy the competitor out. - Deep undercut by a large order (15k ISK, 700 items) - Firstly research the item. Is there a reason for it falling in price? If so, dump my entire stock immediately to buy orders and take the small loss. If not, seriously consider buying the competitor out. If I don't do so, accept that the 700 item order will be counter-undercut and so the profitability of this item will be in the dumps for a day or two. Hold my supplies, and monitor the item constantly.
The 'Nuclear Undercut' market PVP trick
I love this one. A lot. It works best when an item is at a local low in prices (example: Meta 4 warp scramblers are usually at their lowest on Thursdays, before the casual PVPers buy them for weekend games). This works better with an alt in the same system. Post a small number of an item at a very, very deep undercut in a trade hub. (eg if the spread is 2100k-2400k, post them at 2270k or so). Then have your alt complain in local "Some idiot keeps undercutting item X so deep that I can't make any money". Link the item. You are hoping that there's someone in the local channel that has a large-ish stockpile of that item and 0.01 ISKs you. When they do, buy their entire stock. Two days later, when the spread is 2300-2700, sell them all at 2700k.
You can also do this by posting one of the item in a nearby lowsec station and hope people undercut that. This only works when the lowest price on the item (before you) is in the trade hub. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front. |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
116
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Posted - 2013.11.15 12:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thank you for the outstanding and (might I say) detailed replies. I have to learn that nuke option trick once I get an actually perfect trader alt finished. |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
159
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Posted - 2013.11.15 14:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Put simply, I am wondering what are some indicators when to let a buy or sell order sit while it fills vs fighting the bots in the .01 game?
While my question is simple enough, I am expecting the advice on the topic to be varied and complex. I am a very very inexperienced trader who barely has learned to crawl. Thus any help is welcome and useful.
You never know who is behind the orders, so do not assume that orders changing by 0.01 ISK are done by bots. You will never be able to beat the orders of someone who spends 8-12 hours trading the market. Instead of getting into a price war, where the only goal is to be the top price, you should develop your own trading strategy. Any strategy seeking to GÇ£punishGÇ¥ those who play the 0.01 ISK game is a losing strategy.
In general, I hold minerals that I consider to be under value, and will play the 0.01 on fast pace large volume turn over markets. Here are two links that will help you developed your own trading strategy: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Trading https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_trading
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