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Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
66
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Posted - 2013.11.13 07:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wish to tap the community's wisdom as I am not a math whiz.
I will be using a Tengu to combat Angels for the next few months. Am I better off using the Tengu's bonused kinetic damage or use the non bonused explosive damage type commonly used for Angels?
Thanks all. |
Dato Koppla
Retribution Innovations
353
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
The difference between Explosive and Kinetic resists on Angel ships are generally much less than 25% and since you lose 25% dps from using explosive, kinetic should always be the better choice when using a Tengu, there are some exceptions, but not enough to warrant ever using explosive on Angels in a Tengu.
Use Chruker NPC Ships (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php) database to answer these types of questions in future including things like Ewar (neut/scram/web/td etc), Orbit Range/Velocity, EHP, DPS and damage profile, and basically anything to do with NPC ships. |
imbaRabbit
Suddenly rabbit
73
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:The difference between Explosive and Kinetic resists on Angel ships are generally much less than 25% and since you lose 25% dps from using explosive, kinetic should always be the better choice when using a Tengu, there are some exceptions, but not enough to warrant ever using explosive on Angels in a Tengu.
Use Chruker NPC Ships (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php) database to answer these types of questions in future including things like Ewar (neut/scram/web/td etc), Orbit Range/Velocity, EHP, DPS and damage profile, and basically anything to do with NPC ships.
You beat me to it :).
Anyway this is the link where you can check the stats from the ships ... If you can see, the difference between the kinetic and explosive resists is smaller than I've expected.
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11 |
Storm Airkian
Unified Combatants Against ALL Authorities
4
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Posted - 2013.11.13 14:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
imbaRabbit wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:The difference between Explosive and Kinetic resists on Angel ships are generally much less than 25% and since you lose 25% dps from using explosive, kinetic should always be the better choice when using a Tengu, there are some exceptions, but not enough to warrant ever using explosive on Angels in a Tengu.
Use Chruker NPC Ships (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php) database to answer these types of questions in future including things like Ewar (neut/scram/web/td etc), Orbit Range/Velocity, EHP, DPS and damage profile, and basically anything to do with NPC ships. You beat me to it :). Anyway this is the link where you can check the stats from the ships ... If you can see, the difference between the kinetic and explosive resists is smaller than I've expected. http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11
True... Where it "does" matter is using EM (Mjolnir) missiles vs. Sansha as the Sansha ships typically have very good kinetic resistance with poor EM resist, tipping the balance in favor of EM... Even that has an exception as some T2 Sansha rats have improved EM resist as well, where the Tengu's kinetic bonus again wins the dps race... (I switch missiles vs T1 and T2... For frigs it hardly matter but worth switching to kinetic when u are to kill some T2 Cruisers in succession |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
333
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Posted - 2013.11.13 14:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
This. Generally the differences are a static 10% between one resist and the other, however for elite ships or higher-tier battleships, the base is higher, and of course the difference between 50% resistance and 60% resistance is in fact 20%, not 10%. You can see that even on the tougher angel ships kinetic is almost always the correct choice.
Also, that website is fantastic and i love it. Fighting is Magic |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
66
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Posted - 2013.11.13 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
You guys are great. Thanks! I had seen this website long ago but thought it was dead. Thanks for reintroducing it to me. Now to figure out all the navigation in it. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1695
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Posted - 2013.11.13 19:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Have a spreadsheet. Kinetic bonus is in tabs at the bottom; for a Tengu you're probably at 25% so go to that one. You'll see that BR and Sansha are still best dealt with with EM missiles but Angels are close with a slight kinetic advantage. Elite Angels take more damage from explosive though.
Typical resist profiles are pulled from chruker. |
Storm Airkian
Unified Combatants Against ALL Authorities
4
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Posted - 2013.11.13 20:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Batelle wrote:This. Generally the differences are a static 10/15/20% between one resist and another, however for elite ships or higher-tier battleships, the base resistance to everything is higher, and of course the difference between 50% resistance and 60% resistance is in fact 20%, not 10%. You can see that even on the tougher angel ships kinetic is almost always the correct choice. Also, that website is fantastic and i love it. Storm Airkian wrote: Even that has an exception as some T2 Sansha rats have improved EM resist as well, where the Tengu's kinetic bonus again wins the dps race... (I switch missiles vs T1 and T2... For frigs it hardly matter but worth switching to kinetic when u are to kill some T2 Cruisers in succession
This is wrong. For the tougher frigates, its even MORE important to use EM, because of math. The T2 frigs with improved EM resist still take between 50%-75% more damage on EM compared to Kinetic. http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?group_id=624
Yep m8 looking at your chart and definitely maths proves you correct... However I am definitely sure on some rats I experienced kinetic missiles doing better than EM... cant seem to demonstrate it in here though. |
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
15
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Posted - 2013.11.13 23:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
I am simply terrible at math, so please help me understand this...
"...and of course the difference between 50% resistance and 60% resistance is in fact 20%, not 10%." Huh? How does this play out?
Also, I looked at the Chruker site and it looks to me that basic (non-elite) deadspace Sansha ships have, for the most part, a Kinetic resist 20% higher than their EM resist. So if your ship does 25% higher damage with kinetic than with EM, don't you have a 5% advantage..actually nevermind. I think I figured it out while typing. Tell me if my math is sound.
For this discussion: EM missle = 200 damage Kinetic missle (25% bonus) = 250 damage (base+25%)
Centii Slavehunter 5% EM, 35% Exp, 25% Kin, 15% Therm
One EM missle hit would be 200-5%(10)=190 points of dmg. One Kin missle hit would be 250-25%(62.5)=187.5 points of dmg
Did I get this correct? |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2404
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Posted - 2013.11.13 23:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
use EM for blood and sansha, KIN for everything else. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1695
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Posted - 2013.11.14 00:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lynkon Lawg wrote:I am simply terrible at math, so please help me understand this...
"...and of course the difference between 50% resistance and 60% resistance is in fact 20%, not 10%." Huh? How does this play out?
Also, I looked at the Chruker site and it looks to me that basic (non-elite) deadspace Sansha ships have, for the most part, a Kinetic resist 20% higher than their EM resist. So if your ship does 25% higher damage with kinetic than with EM, don't you have a 5% advantage..actually nevermind. I think I figured it out while typing. Tell me if my math is sound.
For this discussion: EM missle = 200 damage Kinetic missle (25% bonus) = 250 damage (base+25%)
Centii Slavehunter 5% EM, 35% Exp, 25% Kin, 15% Therm
One EM missle hit would be 200-5%(10)=190 points of dmg. One Kin missle hit would be 250-25%(62.5)=187.5 points of dmg
Did I get this correct?
Nailed it. Nice explanation to boot. |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
66
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
This has turned out to be very educational. Thanks all. Also, thank you Zhilia Mann for using `to boot` correctly in a sentence. It is sooo rare! :) |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
349
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pretty much, although I did the napkin math wrong. The difference between 60% resistance and 50% resistance is in fact 25% . Because 50 applied damage is 25% more than 40 applied damage. Pretending everything does damage in 100 point increments makes it simpler to visualize.
*you could also think of it as one is 20% LESS, but by my own convention I assume I'll be shooting non-bonused kinetic missiles and then I see what relative % increase I would get by switching to the weakest resist and compare it to my kinetic bonus. Then its a simple matter of saying if my damage type bonus is bigger than the weakest resist bonus. You have to divide the two however to find the relative difference. Below I show an example where I pretend the higher base damage of garde's is just a racial damage type bonus and proceed from there.
In the case of garde's vs wardens, I'm primarily concerned about applied DPS to high-tier battleships. I'll first pretend both garde's and wardens do the same base damage. I see that a Pith Usurper 50 kinetic resist and 60 thermal resist (actually 49/59). This means that the Usurper takes 51 damage from 100 raw kinetic, and 41 damage from 100 raw thermal, meaning that kinetic is a 24% bonus. Then I consider that garde's actually do more base damage. To calculate that I divide the garde damage modifier 1.92 by the warden damage modifier 1.44. So by using garde's I get an extra 33% damage. Since 33% is bigger than 25%, garde's will do more damage. If I want to figure out how MUCH more damage, I divide 1.333/1.243 = 1.072% = 7.2% more dps using garde's, and thats assuming your target is within garde optimal and your wardens have perfect tracking (usually the case vs guristas). However, it gets a bit hairier with elite cruisers, as they both have tracking issues which favor gardes, and overall higher resistances which tends to favor wardens. Fighting is Magic |
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