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Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
339
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was reading a discussion about the current state of supercarriers on another board and I think the greater EVE community has a lot of perspective to offer this 'game within a game.' Rather than coloring the discussion with politics and personal interests I would just like to quote a couple posts that really highlight the current problems with supercapital proliferation and then have an intelligent discussion on the matter.
wrote:Supercapitals were never designed around being something individuals progressed towards. They were supposed to be alliance level assets - extremely powerful, extremely useful, extremely resource intensive. The idea was that alliances would have a handful of supercarriers and one titan. That model was designed around an Eve that had far fewer sources of income and a lot less money circulating. Even their initial estimates were off pretty spectacularly as major alliances started fielding two, three and even four titans within a few months of their introduction.
Now there's a ton more money in game. At the alliance level you had people who controlled significant portions of the game's raw material (Tech) and the rental empires drawing vast amounts of liquid wealth from their serfs. Not only that, so much more money is available to the individual that an individual can realistically hope to own a supercapital ship if they've played for a year or two and want it. To be fair, that isn't most people - but if I'd felt the twisted desire to really gun for a supercarrier I could have done it within a few months.
Supercapitals were not designed around the idea that a group could put hundreds on the field. The advantage conferred by supercapitals is exponential, not linear. 20 supercarriers can form a remote rep chain that will tank anything but a major call to arms kind of fleet. With Titans you can essentially chose to wipe out as many dreads or carriers as you have titans in one shot. (A while back the problem was "Tracking Titans" - titan guns used to be able to track subcaps with some efficiency, so if you had 2-3 dozen you could set up a death ball that orbited an enemy fleet, ensuring that at least a few of the 5-8K DPS titans have a clean shot on a subcap)
KW- showed that the multiplicative advantage conferred by mass supercapitals is approaching its logical end state: you can now form a fleet that can't realistically be destroyed. It may be mathematically possible, but the node just can't handle it and you have the option of crashing the node when in danger. Hence people's disdain for the things.
wrote:Using a fairly standard passive fit fleet aeon (assuming an erebus in system for armor bonus), each aeon tanks 21,515 dps per other aeon. With 20 aeons on field, that's 19 other aeons or 408,785 dps. A triple magstab 425mm megathron shooting javelin and dropping 3 gardes is 921 dps. You need 443 megathrons before you can even start breaking a super, at which point you need to chew through 57 million EHP. If you assume 800 megathrons, that's 328,797 dps, or 173 seconds to kill a single aeon, or half an hour in 10% tidi. To alpha one of those aeons off the field, you need 19534 megathrons, 4844 maelstroms, 1066 moros, or 592 arty naglfar. 31 Moros would be able to break the reps. A fleet of 50 moros would take at least 148 seconds to kill an aeon, and would lose at minimum 11 or 12 moros in doing so.
There is also quite a manifesto and ensuing discussion here |
MestariBation
Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One
24
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Posted - 2013.11.14 16:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you assume 800 megathrons, that's 328,797 dps, or 173 seconds to kill a single aeon
Jesys they do need more tank |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1358
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Posted - 2013.11.14 16:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Super Capital rebalance will go live once GSF has finished polishing off the fine details... Support my (possibly dumb) Ideas!! Worm Rebalance!!! |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Super Capital rebalance will go live once GSF has finished polishing off the fine details...
No politics please. If you agree or disagree that there is an issue with the current state of supercapitals then please explain why or why not they are or arent a problem for the balance of the game. |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
695
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Why do ANY supercaps need a rebalance? Only about 5% of the playerbase will ever even see one, much less use one. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1736
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Super Capital rebalance will go live once GSF has finished polishing off the fine details...
sorry about the wait, i've been busy with university work. i'm forwarding CCP the details now :) |
Radelix Cisko
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
136
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm gathering that you think that supercapitals should be more expensive to produce? Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game
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Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
342
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:Why do ANY supercaps need a rebalance? Only about 5% of the playerbase will ever even see one, much less use one.
Beginning in Fountain and more recently with the conflict in the south we have been seeing the issues highlighted more and more. It is true this is almost universally a 0.0 issue but the gaming media pays a lot of attention to these 'massive' 0.0 wars and the issue of supercarriers and crashing nodes will keep cropping up until its addressed.
wrote:With supers either the node crashes or nobody dies. The only real way for anything to die is in a sufficiently large fight for lots of titans to get dropped, in which case a titan dies to getting DD blapped every 10 minutes. Or rather, every 100 minutes since it'll be in 10% tidi. |
MestariBation
Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One
30
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Radelix Cisko wrote:I'm gathering that you think that supercapitals should be more expensive to produce? No. Because PL and NC. has more of them, they need to be nerfed.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1237
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:Why do ANY supercaps need a rebalance? Only about 5% of the playerbase will ever even see one, much less use one.
I'm not going to do a search but if you've ever made or liked a post that mentioned null stagnation or blue donuts then you've answered your own question.
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Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
342
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
As you can see- this is a thorny issue |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1736
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think it's a shame that there's No More Heroes to champion supercap rebalancing |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1237
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
"No politics please" is a pretty unrealistic request for this forum tbqh. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1358
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Super Capital rebalance will go live once GSF has finished polishing off the fine details... sorry about the wait, i've been busy with university work. i'm forwarding CCP the details now :) Ok good...
I was getting worried there... Support my (possibly dumb) Ideas!! Worm Rebalance!!! |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Radelix Cisko wrote:I'm gathering that you think that supercapitals should be more expensive to produce?
Some folks have said more expensive, some have said less expensive. One of the biggest issues is the spider tanking while also doing massive dps, along with being ewar immune.
The current train of thought goes: "Hey theres a supercarrier fleet lets kill it." Dreads get dropped..triage carriers come in or were there already to support the supercarriers, titans come in to doomsday the dreads off the field and on and on.
Escalation ensues and the node crashes
The only and I really mean the only time supercarriers have died in this modern day and age was because of a trap. |
MestariBation
Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One
30
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Super Capital rebalance will go live once GSF has finished polishing off the fine details... sorry about the wait, i've been busy with university work. i'm forwarding CCP the details now :) Ok good... I was getting worried there... They need to nerf drone assist first.. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Delete from game, refund SP and some reasonable ISK value.
Should never have been created. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1010
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them.
EVE thrives on creativity from more, not less options! GûÇGûêGûÇ GûêGûÇGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûêGûÇGûê GûêGûæGûê GûæGûêGûæ GûêGûÇGûä GûæGûêGûæ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûä GûêGûæGûêGûæGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûÇGûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇGûæGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1736
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them.
EVE thrives on creativity from more, not less options!
the last thing we need is something more powerful to defeat something that was previously too powerful
have you never heard of power creep |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate WHY so Seri0Us
2524
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Increase everything by 1,000,000. Including training time. Dodixie > Hek |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
349
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
remove their rep bonuses? Fighting is Magic |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3362
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
The obvious fix is to create "Super-Duper Capitals" to stomp the super-capitals that are stomping regular capitals. And so forth till all that is left is the rifters.
I also sell rifters in Jita. btw, I'll make you a good deal. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
483
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
delete all from [shiptable] where [shipclass] = supercapital |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1010
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Spurty wrote:Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them.
EVE thrives on creativity from more, not less options! the last thing we need is something more powerful to defeat something that was previously too powerful have you never heard of power creep
Supers and titans "ARE" power creep. Of course I've heard of it.
Anyway, your worry is 1dimensional
If you have a tool that can only hammer nails, how useful is that tool when building light bulbs?
CCP's goofs with ships are pretty much 'Titans and Supers'. Other than drone ships in general, there's not many other interesting 'win button' ships out there.
It's completely possible that a tool can been created to combat the menace that only combats the menace. GûÇGûêGûÇ GûêGûÇGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûêGûÇGûê GûêGûæGûê GûæGûêGûæ GûêGûÇGûä GûæGûêGûæ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûä GûêGûæGûêGûæGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûÇGûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇGûæGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ |
March rabbit
True Horde
883
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:"No politics please" is a pretty unrealistic request for this forum tbqh. it killed all the fun Null people are like a kid who broke his own toy and is jealous about another kid that still has a new, shiny toy. In the kid's mind, the only way to happiness is to grab that shiny toy and break it so both kids are in equal misery.
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destiny2
Perkone Caldari State
263
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
MestariBation wrote:Radelix Cisko wrote:I'm gathering that you think that supercapitals should be more expensive to produce? No. Because PL and NC. has more of them, they need to be nerfed.
It isnt about how many they have, war is never about numbers, its how they use them. PL and NC. have been useing supercapitals more then any other alliance, so they know their strengths and cons, even when in the heat of looseing one. they know how to react to save it. from being destroyed,
Like how supercapital pilots should be they prolly have every core skill and primary skill at level V, to give max performance,
Those players that dont fly them or even have one always have a opinion on a ship they never flown,
ive used supercapitals on singularity and their not as strong as people think, their tanking is relied upon others in their fleet same with cap. they call this spider tanking,
a single super can be killed very easily if it isnt with other supers,
15 titans all useing their DD's can insta pop a titan which is quite pretty to watch, lost a wyvern on singularity, to 15 titan doomsdays wish i hit fraps cause it was very cool.
But back on topic if PL and NC. didnt use supers all the time in nullsec for their battles and another alliance did all the time people would still be bitching lol.
CCP already rebalanced them back oh i dunno when, supers where scarier when they could use all types of drones, be thankful they still can 20 light t2 drones comeing at a battleship was freaky,
I still remember the story of the solo Nyx pilot who used to terroize lowsec, |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate WHY so Seri0Us
2524
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Spurty wrote:If you have a tool that can only hammer nails, how useful is that tool when building light bulbs? Exponentially quite a fair bit. Nails get hammered into the table on which the sweatshop workers build the lightbulbs. The more hammers you have, the more tables can be nailed at once, meaning the more lightbulbs can be made by more workers until the entire industry is your personal monopoly.
Spurty wrote:Other than drone ships in general, there's not many other interesting 'win button' ships out there. Bwahahahahahaha Dodixie > Hek |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
212
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Beginning in Fountain and more recently with the conflict in the south we have been seeing the issues highlighted more and more. It is true this is almost universally a 0.0 issue but the gaming media pays a lot of attention to these 'massive' 0.0 wars and the issue of supercarriers and crashing nodes will keep cropping up until its addressed.
wrote:With supers either the node crashes or nobody dies. The only real way for anything to die is in a sufficiently large fight for lots of titans to get dropped, in which case a titan dies to getting DD blapped every 10 minutes. Or rather, every 100 minutes since it'll be in 10% tidi. [/quote]
This just in, sub capital fleets cause TiDi also. |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:This just in, sub capital fleets cause TiDi also.
A subcapital fleet has never caused node death..
Even the largest fight ever- 6VDT, 4096 subcapitals didnt kill that node. It was reinforced you say.. the super Jita node, this is true but the current meta is to not reinforce nodes where supercapitals are wont to be used so that the node can be crashed to avoid 'tanking til downtime'. |
Karrl Tian
Bourbon Bandits Anarchy.
251
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Spurty wrote:Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them.
EVE thrives on creativity from more, not less options! the last thing we need is something more powerful to defeat something that was previously too powerful have you never heard of power creep
Add a thermal exhaust port that only a T1 frig can attack. |
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