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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1074
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Posted - 2013.11.14 16:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mining your own minerals does not make them free. If you believe that it does, please stop drinking window cleaner.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
48
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is true, but it's somewhat confusing that anyone would want to stop others from undervaluing their economic output instead of just exploiting them. |
Ljuvi
3
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Depends on the player. For some people their time is not worth that much.
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Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
50
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Posted - 2013.11.14 17:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
When you mine in eve and are very afk about it the ore and minerals might as well be considered free to that player. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
349
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
was this thread really necessary? Fighting is Magic |
Krixtal Icefluxor
The Scope Gallente Federation
72067
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have no ISK.
So I mine. I still have no ISK.
I take the ore to a Market.
I now magically have ISK.
You're right, they are not free.
They cost someone some ISK.....and it was not me.
But the ISK is now mine.
So, the minerals may not be 'free' in your alternative universe, but they sure are worth a lot of ISK. To me.
THEY ARE A FREE AND FREELY AVAILABLE RESOURCE WITH A POTENTIAL AND VARIABLE MARKET VALUE.
So, essentially you are making both a true and a false statement at the same time. It's just a paradox, and in direct relation to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem ("This statement is false", et al.)
old tired 10 years dead subjects, are old dead tired 10 years dead subjects "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1102
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
It doesn't matter if someone thinks this or not, the market will adapt and won't affect you. There are a hundred other things that affect market prices more than any mimif miner. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
60
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:This is true, but it's somewhat confusing that anyone would want to stop others from undervaluing their economic output instead of just exploiting them.
^this. "Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
60
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
Krixtal Icefluxor
The Scope Gallente Federation
72067
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game.
...or am I misunderstanding something. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
349
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game. ...or am I misunderstanding something.
I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding something, as most mining, industry, and production is done by people who already understand the concept of opportunity cost. Fighting is Magic |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
60
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game. ...or am I misunderstanding something.
Think of it this way....
You can spend x amount of time mining and earn a certain amount of isk. You could also spend x amount of time mission running and earn a certain amount of isk. In either case you have converted time into isk. Those minerals that you got from your refined ore that you mined were not "free". They cost you time. Time=money, both in EVE and in RL.
The biggest mistake is when folks think they are being profitable by manufacturing a particular item but aren't factoring in the "cost" of the the materials they are mining themselves. That is opportunity cost. The minerals cost them the lost opportunity to be making isk another way.
I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions. "Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
48
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game. ...or am I misunderstanding something. Think of it this way.... You can spend x amount of time mining and earn a certain amount of isk. You could also spend x amount of time mission running and earn a certain amount of isk. In either case you have converted time into isk. Those minerals that you got from your refined ore that you mined were not "free". They cost you time. Time=money, both in EVE and in RL. The biggest mistake is when folks think they are being profitable by manufacturing a particular item but aren't factoring in the "cost" of the the materials they are mining themselves. That is opportunity cost. The minerals cost them the lost opportunity to be making isk another way. I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions.
Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1102
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Hyuna Foolery
Tortuga Coalition 102
0
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor] I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions. Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be.
MIMAF?
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Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
29
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hyuna Foolery wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor] I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions. Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be. MIMAF?
M inerals I M ine A re F ree
how much is the opportunity cost? if, beeing bill gates or a high class hooker i could earn .. very much more during the time a ore bay fills. or do both at the same time opportunity cost for mining is very very low for most parts as it doesnt need much attention in comparison to most other professions, even du the very small risk of gankers. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
30
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Posted - 2013.11.14 22:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run.
I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****. |
Zircon Dasher
297
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Posted - 2013.11.15 00:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote: I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****.
SO what you are saying is that sell prices are down, not because of the increase in supply but, because of MIMAF.......
Please tell me more about this logical theory you believe in. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Sidrat Flush
Deadly Harmony
164
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Posted - 2013.11.15 01:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Meta modules valued and on the market for below their refining value makes me very happy. It's like mining but less annoying and time consuming. Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1102
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Posted - 2013.11.15 01:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Zifrian wrote:Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run. I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****. Sorry, many other reasons for a market to tank. One being the lack of demand and producers haven't figured out that it's not the hub it once was after agent changes. There are more.
Blaming all the market ills on MIMAF people is easy, but it ignores the massive complexity of the market.
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
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Kate stark
867
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Posted - 2013.11.15 06:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mining your own minerals does not make them free. If you believe that it does, please stop drinking window cleaner.
you're wrong.
minerals you mine ARE free. however that's not the same as minerals you mine don't have any value associated with them. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
Kate stark
867
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Posted - 2013.11.15 06:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game. ...or am I misunderstanding something.
except that's bollocks and you know it, look at serenity where practically nobody mines. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
333
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Posted - 2013.11.15 09:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?
The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.
So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game. ...or am I misunderstanding something.
My noctis is my miner, I shall not want. It maketh me warp to wreck fields, it leadeth me to the recyclable modules.
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Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1742
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Posted - 2013.11.15 12:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ljuvi wrote:Depends on the player. For some people their time is not worth that much. Just so you know, what you think your time is worth is utterly beside the point. Someone who mines and sells minerals is not saying "these are free", they are simply generating income. The ones that think they are free are the ones who build things.
For this example trit is a 4.7 isk/unit. Say you make an item for 10000 trit, that item is worth 47000 isk. A MIMAF will say, that's 47000 profit from manufacutre. This means they may undercut someone already sellign at 47000 to say 44000, stating "i'm making 44000 profit". But they are not. They are making 3000 loss, since they could have sold their minerals for 47000.
Thats pretty much whaat people are meaning when they say minerals are not free. And they point it out because it's annoying to be undercut by a moron that can't figure out he's making a loss, making you have to wait for his orders to clear before you can start making a profit (tax usually means you cant buy out someone that's undercutting you by a fraction)
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Fatima Kara-Khanid
0
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Posted - 2013.11.15 14:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Everything is relative.
You may state that, and others may state that it deppends on how one values one's time.
But you have also the thing that some people leave a character mining and actually do something else at the same time, ergo not using time to evaluate the ore mined.
You can go on and on over this same issue everytime, but at the end of the day, it is what this forum is full of: Concept Warfare. Concept Warfare: Argument made by changing the concept the words used actually refeer to. Often used with: Stick Figure Argument - Red Herring - Ad Hominen - Reductio ad Absurdum |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
30
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Ljuvi wrote:Depends on the player. For some people their time is not worth that much. Just so you know, what you think your time is worth is utterly beside the point. Someone who mines and sells minerals is not saying "these are free", they are simply generating income. The ones that think they are free are the ones who build things. For this example trit is a 4.7 isk/unit. Say you make an item for 10000 trit, that item is worth 47000 isk. A MIMAF will say, that's 47000 profit from manufacutre. This means they may undercut someone already sellign at 47000 to say 44000, stating "i'm making 44000 profit". But they are not. They are making 3000 loss, since they could have sold their minerals for 47000. Thats pretty much whaat people are meaning when they say minerals are not free. And they point it out because it's annoying to be undercut by a moron that can't figure out he's making a loss, making you have to wait for his orders to clear before you can start making a profit (tax usually means you cant buy out someone that's undercutting you by a fraction) Or, you could off you're lazy ship spinning ass and go mine some free ore and undercut him by 43999, and make 43999 profit, instead of buying his free ore, and only making 3000 profit.
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Krixtal Icefluxor
The Scope Gallente Federation
73023
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Posted - 2013.11.17 12:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tauranon wrote: It maketh me warp to wreck fields, it leadeth me to the recyclable modules.
That amount of minerals is a drop in the bucket. Would take you years to get the Trit for a cap ship.
"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1753
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Posted - 2013.11.17 23:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Ljuvi wrote:Depends on the player. For some people their time is not worth that much. Just so you know, what you think your time is worth is utterly beside the point. Someone who mines and sells minerals is not saying "these are free", they are simply generating income. The ones that think they are free are the ones who build things. For this example trit is a 4.7 isk/unit. Say you make an item for 10000 trit, that item is worth 47000 isk. A MIMAF will say, that's 47000 profit from manufacutre. This means they may undercut someone already sellign at 47000 to say 44000, stating "i'm making 44000 profit". But they are not. They are making 3000 loss, since they could have sold their minerals for 47000. Thats pretty much whaat people are meaning when they say minerals are not free. And they point it out because it's annoying to be undercut by a moron that can't figure out he's making a loss, making you have to wait for his orders to clear before you can start making a profit (tax usually means you cant buy out someone that's undercutting you by a fraction) Or, you could off you're lazy ship spinning ass and go mine some free ore and undercut him by 43999, and make 43999 profit, instead of buying his free ore, and only making 3000 profit. lol, I think you miss the point. Why would I mine ore, refine it, turn it into an item, then sell that item for less than what I could have sold the refined minerals for? In the same way, if you consider your minerals "free" then don't calc them into your manufacture costs, you can easily be selling an item for less than you could sell the minerals for, thus their value is the value you could sell them for. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Anders Madeveda
Sturmgrenadier Inc
0
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Posted - 2013.11.18 05:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Not sure of the point of the thread...no mining your own minerals does not make them free yet the assumption is that all undercutting on the markets is done by people who don't understand the concept of "Opportunity Cost" when in fact the market is a form of PVP and sometimes you strive to starve the competition in the way a Cap Drain does in traditional PVP. If I constantly undercut you then I weaken your resolve to compete in that aspect of the market...thereby when you leave I can raise my price. Quit trying to instruct people on how to play the game, if someone wants to Mine/Manufacture/Sell their product at the mineral cost no amount of macro economic theory is going to stop them. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
358
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Posted - 2013.11.19 00:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Batelle wrote:was this thread really necessary?
On the one hand, people are stupid and think their time is worthless.
On the other hand, stupid people aren't likely to read the forums for advice.
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