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Relsanor
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:39:00 -
[1]
Moved from EVE General Discussion forum to Ships & Modules forum - Jacques
Having flown both Gallente and Caldari ships, I have to say that the distinction is quite clear. Armor tanking far outweighs shield tanking in pure ability. For example we can compare the Enyo and Harpy, both similar tiered assualt ships.
The Enyo has 4 low slots compared to the harpy's 2 and the Enyo has 4 medium slots compared to the Enyo's 2. Sounds fair until you analyze it deeply. What goes in mid slots is a lot of essential gear such as target painters, webbers, scramblers, capacitor gear and so on. However what goes in lows is fairly optional gear. Can you imagine a pvp assault frig without a jammer and webber? So this means that the harpy in order to have the same PvP stopping power as the enyo must take 2 of its mid slots to equip the gear that the enyo would equip. That leaves the Enyo 4 slots to put in tankign gear and the Harpy only 2.
But the analysis goes even further. If you look at the bonuses that the harpy gets in resistances you see that the bulk of its bonuses are in Armor resistances with room for improvement with hardeners and so on. The harpy, which theoretically should be armor tanked has the same bonus configuration as the enyo which should be. Furthermore, the shield of both ships has 0% EM resistance! You with armor compensation skills and a passive hardener you will get a LOT more bang for your buck with the Enyo than you will with similar skills in shield compensation.
What is more the armor compensation skills allow you to put in an energized adaptive nano which takes no cap at all and nets you a tidy 12% bonuses at armor compensations skills of 4. Similar shield compensations skills with a general purpose hardener (Invulerability field) will get you a 4% bonus. If you turn it on it will chew your cap like candy and boost you to 20%; of course now this has to be managed with the rest of the cap chewing aparatus. Now you need cap rechargers in the lows for sure and forget about damage enhancers. Finally there is no shield equivalent to the Energized Adaptive Nano; the Enyo gets 12% boost with cost of one low slot and the harpy gets 3% at the cost of a mid slot or 20% at the cost of mid slot plus a whole lot of cap.
I think CCP needs to take a close look at this and see why shield tanking has escaped scruitiny for so long.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:41:00 -
[2]
Shield tanks have invuln IIs <3 -- Proud member of the [23].
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Relsanor
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Shield tanks have invuln IIs <3
If you can afford the cap and the slot.
I always wondered why they didnt have different sized hardeneres for frig, cruiser and BS.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:49:00 -
[4]
besides a few exceptions, frigates are pretty useless at tanking. try comparing shield tanks vs armour tanks at the cruiser and above level and you will see they are pretty much equal.
hell, the raven's shield tank can withstand the pounding of any bs in eve.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul 4tw.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:52:00 -
[5]
shieldtanks boost more, but u usually cant sustain them.
armourtanks boost less, but use less cap.
that equals out imo -
the problem i have with shieldtanking is that the medslots are needed for musthave items like scrams sensor boosters cap boosters and such, which makes me armour tankin most of my caldari ships.
btw got a zealot on my alt now, and i love it ;) - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:57:00 -
[6]
with maxed skills, shield tanking is actually more efficiant than armour tanking (by like 1%-2%). the biggest problem is getting a high enough cap recharge to sustain it. A dedicated armour tanker generally has the slots to spare for a couple of CPRs and some CRs, where all a shield tanker can do is fit PDUII unless he wants to incur a shield boost penalty (which kind of defeats the whole point of shield tanking).
Of course you can fit a Cap Booster, but that only lasts as long as you have charges for it
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul 4tw.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.02.16 23:59:00 -
[7]
last time i checked shield tanks... i noticed that you can get shield tanker to have 250-300hp/s sustainable. But then you can throw some implants in the mix... 370-450hp/s anyone? And just to add, this is better than carrier can sustain. Costs alot, but less than carrier, still.
Best what you can get out of armor tank is something about 220 :)
I use no guns... i smack to death. |
ArcticFox
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Posted - 2006.02.17 00:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ArcticFox on 17/02/2006 00:14:29 A corp mate of mine set up a harpy with a small booster and a small cap injector that out-tanked my retribution and beat up pretty much every assault frig my corp mates and I threw at it.
Based on my experience going up against shield tanks, I'd say they're even. ---------------------------------- "There's no +6 Sword of WTFPWN in Eve." - Er... Some person on the forum... |
ArchenTheGreat
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Posted - 2006.02.17 00:13:00 -
[9]
Problem is in shield tank takes the same slots as AB/MWD/web/scrambler so you can't devote all mids to tank. And there are only few lowslot modules which helps to tank shields. Armour tanker can fit pvp mods in med and fill all lows with tank.
It makes Caldari ships underpowered in 1on1 situations. And our weapons and ships are not the heavy hitters too so you can't rely on ganking ability.
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Pouah
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Posted - 2006.02.17 00:28:00 -
[10]
So there's no way a caldari player could play solo?
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Wizie
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Posted - 2006.02.17 00:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pouah So there's no way a caldari player could play solo?
There are many ways a Caldari player can play solo.
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Antiochus
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Posted - 2006.02.17 01:11:00 -
[12]
Shield tanking has alot of skills to help it out....but the flip side might be armor tanking is better quicker?
in any case, my shield tanked harpy can run its shield booster indef, while firing all weapons, using a EM hardener, and AB. With no cap mods.
Course, I have shield compensation to lvl5, as with both cap skills, and a gistii shield booster. Which there is no armor equiv for.
Shield boosters boost more HP per sec than their armor equivelants...but shields have poorer resists. When you adjust for that...they come out about the same.
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Aeaus
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Posted - 2006.02.17 01:16:00 -
[13]
Both are fairly powerful but I would argue that shield tanking is stronger in terms of high ends. There are some very powerful faction shield mods, as well as crystal sets, not to mention amplifiers.
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k starwind
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Posted - 2006.02.17 01:36:00 -
[14]
shield tanking reps a lot of dmg quickly where as armor tanking reps less cap but is more sustained.
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Lienzo
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Posted - 2006.02.17 01:45:00 -
[15]
Offensive or tactical lows would make a world of difference. Like a webbing smartbomb that goes in the lows.
Or a lowslot propulsion option that doesn't play nice with either AB or MWD but was significant in its own right. Like a replacement for overdrive injectors.
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Antic
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Posted - 2006.02.17 01:52:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Antic on 17/02/2006 01:53:36
Originally by: Aeaus Both are fairly powerful but I would argue that shield tanking is stronger in terms of high ends. There are some very powerful faction shield mods, as well as crystal sets, not to mention amplifiers.
Theres a lot of people that use that argument. But you can not take faction mods into consideration in balancing discussions when they are quite rare and costs 60 mill + for a frigate gistii booster for example where as the ship itself costs between 15 to 25 mill. Implants are even worse.
Now if all regular tech 2 small shield boosters were at the gistii level of efficiency then yes but they certainly are not.
When AFs gets compared its usualy a gistii harpy that gets to compare with the others. And that isnt really fair due to the rarity and cost of the modules.
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Xio2
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Posted - 2006.02.17 02:14:00 -
[17]
Heres the only advantage I think a shield tanker has....missiles that hit 100% of the time and Small Gistii type-a. im caldari and i fell your pain...especially when my heavies hit for like 25damage against a Mercinary Wingman. -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2 |
CamMan
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Posted - 2006.02.17 02:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ArcticFox Edited by: ArcticFox on 17/02/2006 00:14:29 A corp mate of mine set up a harpy with a small booster and a small cap injector that out-tanked my retribution and beat up pretty much every assault frig my corp mates and I threw at it.
Based on my experience going up against shield tanks, I'd say they're even.
whats the point of having a great shield tank in a harpy if any of your targets can just warp out when they see they are being beaten?
Originally by: Bender Interesting, no the other one ... tedious
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.02.17 02:58:00 -
[19]
A torp spewing raven with a warpd disruptor a 5 slot tank is a very scary thing to fight when your in a BS.
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2006.02.17 04:43:00 -
[20]
Armour tanks can run much longer but most frig fights wont last more than 30 seconds.
+ I love damage mods.
Shield tank ftw.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.02.17 07:03:00 -
[21]
ô(Invulerability field) will get you a 4% bonus. If you turn it on it will chew your cap like candy and boost you to 20%; of course now this has to be managed with the rest of the cap chewing aparatus.ö 3.2cap is not that much, most ships can handle that and its 30% to all resistance making it better then individual hardeners. I normally shield tank with 1 to 3 Invulnerability fields and never have cap problems.
ôFinally there is no shield equivalent to the Energized Adaptive Nano;ö Amour and shield tanking are not the same, there shouldnÆt be an equivalent for every module.
_________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
F'nog
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Posted - 2006.02.17 07:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pouah So there's no way a caldari player could play solo?
I really have no clue how you came to this conclusion from what's been posted here. Care to elaborate?
Originally by: Bl4zer But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.
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Thomas Torquemada
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Posted - 2006.02.17 07:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sarmaul besides a few exceptions, frigates are pretty useless at tanking. try comparing shield tanks vs armour tanks at the cruiser and above level and you will see they are pretty much equal.
hell, the raven's shield tank can withstand the pounding of any bs in eve.
It just cant sustain it, even if you exchanged all lowslots from PDU's to CPR's, making shield tanks a liability.
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Adjodlo
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Posted - 2006.02.17 07:44:00 -
[24]
Ever hear of a boost amplifier? Armor tankers dont have anything like that. Shield tanking also has the advantage of if you get your tank broken you have a fresh layer of armor to cover your ass as you warp out. Find something else to whine about.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.17 07:53:00 -
[25]
If you're going to be aiming for a big tank then you might as well toss out the webber and just go for bigger/slower targets than you, and use that extra slot to help tank them.
Malka Badi'a = My idol, listen to her. |
Zysco
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Posted - 2006.02.17 08:35:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Zysco on 17/02/2006 08:37:57
Originally by: Thomas Torquemada
Originally by: Sarmaul besides a few exceptions, frigates are pretty useless at tanking. try comparing shield tanks vs armour tanks at the cruiser and above level and you will see they are pretty much equal.
hell, the raven's shield tank can withstand the pounding of any bs in eve.
It just cant sustain it, even if you exchanged all lowslots from PDU's to CPR's, making shield tanks a liability.
Please name 1 pvp setup that includes a sustainable armor tank. And dont tell me apoc because it cant unless it has multiple cap IIs/cap relays, in which case it isn't a pvp setup.
Shield tanking is massively superior to armor tanking. The only 2 reasons that people armor tank at all is: 1) they don't have oodles of mids like caldari, combined with 2) Compare a raven to a pest (6 v 5 mids is pretty close). Only reason to tank either would be for close range fighting, as long range you can just warp out. A close range pest needs a mwd or ab to get in range of its guns, a webber to keep a target in its range and to let its guns track, and of course a scrambler, leaving 2 mids to tank on. Meanwhile, a raven doesnt need a ab/mwd as missiles have uber range, doesnt need a web as missiles dont track, so it has 5 free mids to tank on.
So my basic point is shield tanking >>> armor tanking, but due to the lack of midslots combined with the need of those few midslots on those ships to help their weapons/range, fewer ships are able to effectively shield tank.
The only reason to armor tank is if your ship cannot effectively shield tank.
Shield tanking got a massive boost from invul field IIs, and minor boost from damage controls. Armor tanking meanwhile got a minor boost from the new resist skills.
(and yes, armor tanking is good for repping after a fight without docking, but thats beside the point).
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2006.02.17 09:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Sun Ra on 17/02/2006 09:03:13 BS wise like shield tanking, i wish it was low slot tho, i need my mid slots for pvp so i armour tank.
What i like about shield tank is that in pvp you can use soem sort of cap regen mod and not have to totally depend on cap injects, also you can micro-manage shield boosters alot more than armour tanks where you waste alot of cap cos you used a cycle or 2(duel rep setup) when you didnt need to. Due to this i find shield tanking uses less cap overall
The resistances on shields is alot higher now
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
ArchenTheGreat
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Posted - 2006.02.17 09:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: bundy bear A torp spewing raven with a warpd disruptor a 5 slot tank is a very scary thing to fight when your in a BS.
Unless his enemy just move out of scrambling range and warp out.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.02.17 09:25:00 -
[29]
well in an harpy 4 med slot are far enough to tank btw 1 gistii SB 1 em hardener (T2 or faction should be better) 1 scrambe 1 web (as if i need so) 2 dmg mod in low 4 T2 150 or 125 (i use 125 for tracking 150 may fit in) 1 rocket launcher or nos...
And i promise u can come with ur enyo im ready OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.17 09:30:00 -
[30]
on bs with many mid slots shield tanking wins hands down. on frigs armor tanking wins hands down
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