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NebulousBlur
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Posted - 2006.02.17 19:03:00 -
[91]
I agree with the original poster in that I wish the battles lasted longer. Perhaps 4 to 5 times as long as they do right now.
But there would be so many things that would need to be changed in the game to achieve that without drastically changing the balance of the game -- everything from damage, cycle times, cap usage, cap & shield recharge, tanking and warping away would need to be looked at and altered. The entire game would need to be tweaked. I'm not optimistic about it being done. |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.17 19:18:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 17/02/2006 15:50:17
"The second problem you encountered, was the fact that Tempests are "alpha strike" ships, so they deal considerable damage upfront. Meaning, if you can't handle him in the first 10-15 seconds, youre practically toast eventually.
Interestingly enought, Alpha strike nerfing was (and still is) a hot topic for the Minnies. It's still there but this case isn't something that validizes either side of that argument, anything can take out a ship with low resistances in an "alpha strike" capacity."
... I'd say this particular case doesn't tell anything about post-RMR efficiency of alpha strike, because the Tempest in question was using autocannons... (which work by dealing constant steady stream of fast, small hits rather than heavy punches every 10-15 seconds... i.e. have no alpha strike to speak of whatsoever)
yeah, had to laugh about this too. That guy faced the weakest DPS close range ship, against a well fitted thron/geddon he would have died even faster.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.17 19:19:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Lucas Seraphim
Shame. I'm still under 1m SP, but was looking forward to future battles between big ships lasting 10 or 20 minutes. You know, epic battleship slugfests that are drawn out long enough that you have time to think about your strategy, call in reinforcements, turn the tables, blah blah blah blah. Slowed down to the point where I can notice he's attacking exclusively with missile volleys, I load defenders, launch, shut down his missile strat, he switches to lasers, I determine the incoming damage type, activate the appropriate hardeners, go all-defense while he drains a bit of cap, then hit hard with a vampire to shut him down and mop up.
I mean, I guess all that can take place in seconds, but battleship fights seem like they'd be a bit more ponderous than that. Now frigate skirmishes are a different story entirely...
You cant switch your weapons in space anyway. And defenders dont work, dont use them.
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Gort
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Posted - 2006.02.17 19:57:00 -
[94]
Lythius,
I haven't read completely to the end yet, but...
I agree with your observations. I believe the devs would also like to see the pace of combat slow a bit. I also think, given things like time to warp, etc., it's not as easy to perform the combat time rebalance as first glance would lead one to believe.
Endless gank is, after all, not a very rewarding game experience for either side. It's about like a 10 second sexual encounter. I don't know about the others, but I would like to see that sort of thing last somewhat longer.
In other words, if the PvP experience, in and of itself, is supposed to be pleasurable in some fashion, why limit it, generally, to almost microscopic durations?
Regards,
Gort
Makeup artist for the dead |
Gort
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Posted - 2006.02.17 20:22:00 -
[95]
Excellent posts by almost everyone, BTW (you know who you are). Best thread I've read in a long time.
Regards,
Gort
Makeup artist for the dead |
Wrayeth
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Posted - 2006.02.17 20:39:00 -
[96]
Personally, I don't agree that battles should take any longer than they currently do. Simply put, a longer battle would mean you would never be able to get a kill solo - the victim's friends would arrive before the fight finish, even if they were several jumps away.
In addition, longer battles mean more of a time commitment, and right now the time commitment is perfect. I'd view the current time commitment vs. a proposed longer time commitment as similar to the difference between belt ratting and missions: you can go hunt NPCs in belts without needing to schedule several hours, whereas missions take so long that they're not really worth doing for me - the time commitment is too great (level 4 extravaganza can take 6 hours or more).
To put it bluntly, I do not want to see 20-minute fights be the norm, or even five-minute fights. Solo PvP would die completely if this happened.
-Wrayeth
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2006.02.17 20:48:00 -
[97]
I had a similar encounter 2 days ago but cruisers version. I was flying an AC (180S T2) Mwd Rupture, I went against an Omen (amarr cruiser). I clicked approach, mwd, activated guns, web, scram and armor rep then look up and saw my opponent already in a pod, it took less than 4 secs 
I was happy at first but soon began to realize, I had absolutly no chance to appreciate the fight. It went all too fast.
I remember the days in DAOC (Dark Ages Of Camelot), it usually took 2 mins or even longer to fight a 1 vs 1. You had time to use different trinkets, moves, spells ect... Somehow I wish fights with ships of equal class would last a tad longer 
I guess it would be a nightmar for the Devs to balance it.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.02.17 21:21:00 -
[98]
I'm a fan of longer combat in just about any game; the problem with drawing EVE PvP out though is that without multiple dedicated tacklers on a single target any compotent player can warp away from any predicatable damage when things start to go south.
Sudden shock damage is pretty much the main reason people ever die in EVE. Along with lag of course.
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Gonada
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Posted - 2006.02.17 21:40:00 -
[99]
once again, it all comes down to ship loadout. no matter how many SP you have, if you have no knowledge of how to loadout a ship, or have any idea of tactics in pvp, of course the battle is going to be short.
seems like the battle lasted a bit beyond 10 sec too :)
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.17 23:04:00 -
[100]
"I remember the days in DAOC (Dark Ages Of Camelot), it usually took 2 mins or even longer to fight a 1 vs 1. You had time to use different trinkets, moves, spells ect... Somehow I wish fights with ships of equal class would last a tad longer "
They do, as long as ships involved are actually set up on comparable level... ^^;
(perhaps the NPCs being easy as they are actualy does people disservice -- if one can go in belt with next to no defense and still survive then they'll frequently do just that. And then when caught by another player-driven ship they stand no chance and pop like one of these NPC rats :/
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.18 12:41:00 -
[101]
Originally by: j0sephine
"I remember the days in DAOC (Dark Ages Of Camelot), it usually took 2 mins or even longer to fight a 1 vs 1. You had time to use different trinkets, moves, spells ect... Somehow I wish fights with ships of equal class would last a tad longer "
They do, as long as ships involved are actually set up on comparable level... ^^;
(perhaps the NPCs being easy as they are actualy does people disservice -- if one can go in belt with next to no defense and still survive then they'll frequently do just that. And then when caught by another player-driven ship they stand no chance and pop like one of these NPC rats :/
fighting a decent Raven pilot can take ages
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.02.18 12:55:00 -
[102]
adding more hp will only make small skirmish longer, a fleet battle would still kill all ships one by one becouse of 50 pilots shooting the same target..
"We brake for nobody"
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Kahn Moquil
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Posted - 2006.02.18 13:30:00 -
[103]
My opinion is that a 1v1 can never be taken as a reason to change anything about tanking/damage. To a degree, any ship can be setup to specifically take out another ship if you know its setup. It's why do you don't go out solo pvp'ing in 0.0 without experience.
Try flying in a gang next time.
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.02.18 14:25:00 -
[104]
They also have to balance out battle duration on average setups, and I doubt the average setup has resistance of 20% against the enemies main source of damage. Probably more like 60% which triples the duration and pushes into reasonable times.
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Hast
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Posted - 2006.02.18 15:42:00 -
[105]
PVP is kinda like sex. You spend all evening getting someone home for 10 minutes in bed.
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Juil
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Posted - 2006.02.18 16:08:00 -
[106]
10 seconds.. hrmm i lasted 3 minutes in a thron with Tech 1 equipment against 4 / 5 T2 interceptors that i couldn't target at all.
which shows that low vs high does get longer but the problem is and this is how I agree with the OP and the others who are saying is this.. You spent months working on getting the bigger ships especially if your not in a big corp only to watch your Massive ship ie the battleship or what ever you have brought be wiped in times in almost no time at all, and when it happens you look at the game and go.. 'Why do I bother?'
PVP is meant to be at least some what balanced and most of the time in eve it doesn't feel that way yes yes yes I know that T2 will beat T1 any day that is fine and I agree with it but, tactics barely comes into play.. you hit a button and maybe tell your ship to keep distance drones to attack that is IT, nothing more.. your in a astroid field, you can't even move and hide behind a astroid to prevent LOS from the rail guns or lasers etc that are firing against you, they go through what is obviously meant to be solid matter..
That to me is Eve's biggest and largest let down and the reason why I have a habit of taking long breaks from the game, until a new patch comes out, because .. there is no way except by using numbers of gaining a 'tactical' advantage against a stronger foe.. there is no area's of space that hinder targeting, there are no area's that allow you to play hide and seek with your targets.. There is no tactics... just slam your fingers on a button and watch.
And when you get down to it, that 200 - 300 mil or so investment you've made is gone in 10 seconds - 60 seconds what ever and your insurance isn't about to really take the sting out of it, not by the time you've had to rebuy your equipment and ship then reinsure the ship.
The Dev's keep saying there making .0 space more accessable, wanting us to move out there.. not with the Balance of PVP at present it won't happen because you have no real way of using a tactical enviroment to your advantage.
Examples of what I am talking about...
Your out acting as a gaurd for a mining group or something a strike force warps in to hit you, so you put the astroids bettween you and them so they can't fire at you unless they say have missiles (they can turn) and you start evac'n same goes for things like, your being chased by another group you know your not going to make it to the jump gate so instead you find the nearest nebula, the nearest roid field, the nearest planet with dust rings and you go and hide in side it where both sides range and targeting is reduced and it means that you have a more leveled playing field.
That type of balancing would even help.
- Juil
Intergrated Information Services
Information is Power
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Luigi Thirty
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Posted - 2006.02.18 17:19:00 -
[107]
Do you need drones to survive now? My Blackbird got taken out by a drone carrier that launched 4 or so drones to kill my shields and armor, then finished it off with their Really Big Guns...
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Zekks MarKeys
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Posted - 2006.02.18 18:39:00 -
[108]
Resists setups blah de blah de blah IMO combat in eve IS TO DAMN SHORT. Thats the bgger picture. The only combat that seems about right is dreads v's pos and that extra time adds so much more variety to combat. The devs talk about escalating paths in pve.
Well if pvp were longer there would be more player controled escalating paths i tell you. With that extra time tactics can be deployed and battles can escalate. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE understand this concept it would make pvp sooo much better. 
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Kular
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Posted - 2006.02.18 20:38:00 -
[109]
I think the new changes to tanking added hp's and reduced stacking to nerf gank have all gone a long way to improve fleet battle.
Small fights are not long because they are small and 1 side almost always has an advantage. Fleet battles take time because of Lagg and sheere numbers.
1v1 is also a bit picky, I've duel people to a standstill before during wars, we we're evenly matched experience and SP wise and had a great time at it. Most 1v1 though one guy has the setup/skill advantage and will easily win if he plays his cards right.
Someone mentioned the PVP turnament... exactly the point. The best PvPers in EVE, when clashed together some of those fights took 10,15,even 20min+ for only a 3v3!
There a very old rule in eve that simply states, 90% of all battles are decided before they even start.
Thats still true today, remember it!
For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Toy
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Posted - 2006.02.18 23:30:00 -
[110]
A geddon is a poor ship... I fly one and like what I can do with it, but it really is just worth 50 to 60 mil ISK.
If you want to fight for minutes, get a sac or some AF, then tank it, then you will be amazed how the fights last forever.
Also, if you want to fight forever, get a good AF/INTY and then just orbit somone at a decent range...
Remember, IRL quality does destroy poor quality instantly... In the last Iraq war of 1990, they had 10000 + main battle tanks of the soviet 1970s model and the USA tanks were killing them at one per second intervalls... |
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.02.19 01:17:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/02/2006 01:20:11
Originally by: Oveur
What you describe was once much worse. We did extensive changes to exactly this, added hitpoints to all ships, new resistances skills which affected both passive and active hardeners, gave active hardeners a passive resist if you have the skills etc., all to counter this.
Oveur,
Unfortunately, you've overlooked something. I believe I can identify precisely what happened here. And it's just as bad as the "old days" - because the ganking pilot was using T2 projectile amo (it's the only way the numbers stack right). T2 amo in its present state can only cause more incidents like this.
Please add faction missiles then move T2 amo from damage to special, secondary, effects with T1 damage. T1 cheap, faction damage and T2 secondaries - true choices to be made.
(Incidently, without the T2 amo changes I still feel that the 25% a/s/h change was uncessary and has unbalanced frigate combat)
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Farjung
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Posted - 2006.02.19 02:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Wizie
http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Hobblin/Quickie.wmv
Heres what it looked like, and its 203% sped up.
Can people please stop quoting the 10 second figure? First shots are fired at 0:30 and geddon pops at 1:11, that's 41 seconds. I assume Wizie meant 2.03x rather than +203%, but that still means the fight lasted 83 seconds :|.
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Lythius Arcturnus
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Posted - 2006.02.19 02:32:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Lythius Arcturnus on 19/02/2006 02:32:40
Originally by: Farjung
Originally by: Wizie
http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Hobblin/Quickie.wmv
Heres what it looked like, and its 203% sped up.
Can people please stop quoting the 10 second figure? First shots are fired at 0:30 and geddon pops at 1:11, that's 41 seconds. I assume Wizie meant 2.03x rather than +203%, but that still means the fight lasted 83 seconds :|.
He's right, but it didn't last 83 seconds. After checking my logs it lasted a little over a minute.
I apologize for saying it lasted 10 seconds. I was drinking a bit at the time, and it just seemed like it went SOOOO fast. I hate being one of those people that exagerates things to make them look worse than they are, but in this case it looks like im guilty of it, although not intentionally. I do apologize for being as mistaken as I was. At the time I made this post, I honestly and truly thought it was around 10 seconds. In retrospect, im amazed at how much faster it can seem than it actually is.
However, I still stand by alot of what I said in this post. After all, perceived time in a video game is just as relevant, if not more so, than actual time.
I would still like to see combat lengthened if at all possible. I understand how complex an MMO is, and I know you just can't change one aspect of it without having to evaluate all aspects, so I don't expect a miracle.
I really just wanted to express my view as a first time PvPer that it seemed very very quick, and wasn't very fulfilling for the amount of time investment I had to make to make the encounter possible.
I make no claims to having any real knowledge of the matter. I will leave that to more experienced folks. I know I did everything wrong, and I blame no one, and im not saying its necessarily broke. Im merely stating that for a video game, where the main purpose is entertainment and fun, that my experience felt a bit lacking. Thats all.
Again, I sincerely apologize for mistateing the time of the encounter.
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KillmAll187
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Posted - 2006.02.19 07:02:00 -
[114]
Okay where to start. These threads are getting to where I can hardly stomach to open them. Somehow becuase your setup was lacking it is in the game mechanics why you lost? Afraid not. The day a highly specialized fighting character (which is what anyone that flies a minnie ship has to be to be any good at all) loses to a self-proclaimed industrial character is just re-f***ing-diculous. Imagine how you would feel if this -10 pirate comes to the belt you are at and proceeds to wipe out all the asteriods before you can lock them in a barge. You would say thats a little silly also. Fights are perfect in duration as it stands. People who take pirating or pvping as their profession in Eve are already dealt so many nerfs that they may as well quit and people still ask for more. And yes asking for longer fights is calling on a nerf. You are asking for A.) DPS to be cut down, or B.) The effectiveness of tanking to be increased which also nerfs the effectiveness of dmg dealing. All that pvp needs now is 5 minute battles while the TIER 1 battleship with half-arsed setups from someones ratting hanger calls for his corp mates to come deal with the TIER 2 TECH II FITTED BATTLESHIP. I'm psyched, bring on the DPS nerf. Hallelujah, Holy S**t, Where's the tylenol?!
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Juil
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Posted - 2006.02.19 07:36:00 -
[115]
I think the point is though that Eve when you get down to it penelizes you far far more then most feel is required for trying to play the game how it is meant to be done.
99% of the time especially atm you can't do fleet sized battles, and at least 60 / 70% of most battles are one vs one fights.. the game apparently is meant to be about PVP and yet you go pvp and you loose months of invested time and effort in very little time at all.
Then people call you a carebear or a newbie or what ever for your attempt.
I'm not saying that pvp shouldn't be the aspect that eve has as the primary point, Instead I'm saying it should be a lot more Satisfying from BOTH points of the game, winner and looser. Eve's penalties are massive for combat's that last anywhere from 40 seconds through to 120 or so seconds even more so then any other MMORPG out their that I can think of actually.
And the worst worst point of it is that PVP and getting into 0.0 space is apparently what the whole point of the changes and upgrades etc are.
So where does the true unbalancing come into play? The modules? the Ships? Or the fact that older players just pawn over newer younger players?
That and the lack of true tactics for what is obviously meant to be a 3D space combat simulation when you get down to it that appears to be using 2D wargame rules for the fighting (will be ripped apart for that comment but it's true)
With out some form of change, a lot of people will remain 'carebears' as we are called in my opinion because the risk is NOT worth the gaine and most points into 0.0 space are blockaded 24/7 or if you stay in one spot for more then 5 minutes you have the 'alliances' coming to kill you.
But then on the same note here, I also believe that Empire space shouldn't be so damned invincible either.. Honestly it should be that if a player corp can get the ships togeather, the man power etc to take on a NPC corp or empire inside empire space.. they should be able to... now that might change the aspect of how some of us look at eve after all.. As it would mean the players truely have control over the world they live in and can change it.
(See's that now.. every brutor in the game going to hit a system on the amar frings for revenge).
- Juil
Intergrated Information Services
Information is Power
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Jadeon
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Posted - 2006.02.19 08:10:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Jadeon on 19/02/2006 08:10:59
Yeah Devs increased ship HP by 25% but then they introduced Tech 2 ammo 
EvE fighting for me nowdays consists of gate camping for hours followed by a 10 second fight which I must say is getting quite boring quite fast.
The servers are probably spending more time on preparing the kill mail then the actual fight itself.
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Rhunako
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Posted - 2006.02.19 22:36:00 -
[117]
I agree.. and i think most people do that battles end way to quick. People who see pvp everyday or have access to PvP whenever they like won't notice as much. But when the average player imagines a fight between Battleships they think of an explosive, looooooong drawn out bear fight. It ends up being the oppsoite....pretty quick..not so eventfull.
I don't think the poster was asking for adive on ship setup as much as pointing out that there might be a little too much damage output right now...Having 40%+ resistances does indeed reduce damage taken though........
I for one would love some damage reduction or HP increase :)
More Epic battles and less quickies imo. |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.02.19 22:47:00 -
[118]
I wont read whole topic, maybe because im lazy a little.
But ill say what i can from reading first 2 pages...
1. What did you expect from a pvp pilot with prolly fully maxed out gunnery/spaceship? If he was using T2 AC ammo that has 60 base summ of dmg, he surely had high DPS on your BS.
2. It was a typical gank, surely that for industrial character it seems a bit too much. But if he would encounter same pilot in terms of exprience, it would take him alot longer to take that down.
3. You wont beleive, but investement made into such damage potential is fully equal to the investements made by you to use T2 barges for example.
4. Looking at your setup, youd have a chance of being killed even by expirienced pilot in a T1 cruiser fitted with lets say T2 setup.
5. Like i said, theres a pure fast gank situation. When the target is underpowered 10x times then the attacker.
Lemme try to explain it more easier...its like you in large barge with strip miner IIs, competiting with a newbie in mining Osprey with barely Miner IIs. Exactly same. He dont stand a chance, since youll clear up the belt by the time he finishes one roid.
-=-
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Himo Amasacia
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Posted - 2006.02.20 00:08:00 -
[119]
Irrelevent. Someone bieng called primary will always take severe damage. Bieng called primary will ensure that, and is the nature of bieng called primary no matter what damage system you use. Take the oponion of someone with 15 hears of tabletop fleet combat experiance behind him on that. Right now you may as well not bother calling primary, as the opposing ships will blow up almost just as fast regardless, and you will actually get more kills through random fire. 3 on one has the same effect as 30 on one right now. I can't believe you have not figured that out yet. In fact, if you examine your logs you will probably find that most of your battleships have not fired on the pri target before it blows up.
If the battles were extended you will probably find that battles will become about forcing fleets to shift position and manuvering. No matter what you will get kills, but people will learn to isolate and lock down strategic targets for destruction. It will promote real teamwork and strategic thinking. All pluses.
Of course it will require a relook at the damage system and other aspects of eve, but that is frankly not really a bad thing to do whether you think changes are needed or not.
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Cade Morrigan
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Posted - 2006.02.20 02:00:00 -
[120]
I don't like:
Pound pound pound pound pound pound pound pound <<tank breaks>> pound POP!
Make the shield tank and armor tank a very tough skin and beef up the insides! Structure needs to be 10x what it is right now on at least cruisers or larger, and getting hits in structure should cause various slots in your config to be destroyed or damaged/deactivated. As you take more hull damage your max speed should drop... at 60% hull damage you can no longer warp, at 70% you can no longer gate... If you're crippled there should be a significant amount of time where you can be ransomed before your ship is fully destroyed, etc.
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