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Maethilar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.11.16 18:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Back in the days I used to run L2 missions, I used a Caracal, and it was of common sense that it was the king of PVE na L2 missions. But now with the imminent changes to the rapid light missiles, given it a 40 sec reload time, will the Caracal continue to be a good L2 runner? One load of charges would last around 50 seconds, I'm not sure if it is enough to complete a mission.
If the Caracal will not be the king of L2 (or maybe it already lost the title) which T1 cruiser do you think will be the new king? |
Chessur
Strontless Mistakes Fatal Ascension
261
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Posted - 2013.11.16 18:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maethilar wrote:Back in the days I used to run L2 missions, I used a Caracal, and it was of common sense that it was the king of PVE na L2 missions. But now with the imminent changes to the rapid light missiles, given it a 40 sec reload time, will the Caracal continue to be a good L2 runner? One load of charges would last around 50 seconds, I'm not sure if it is enough to complete a mission.
If the Caracal will not be the king of L2 (or maybe it already lost the title) which T1 cruiser do you think will be the new king?
The caracal, along with all of the other RLML boats have been completely ruined. 40 seconds reload time, is simply not playabe in Pve, solo, or small gang. It only works for blobby stuff.
The new king of Lv2 missions are:
Omen Pulse Omen Navy Pulse Rail THorax Rail Navy Exeq Vexor Navy (Sentrys) |
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
77
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Posted - 2013.11.16 19:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree, if CCP does the 40s reload rapid launchers are worthless, and should just be taken off EVE. They weren't OP really anyways, but making weapons have a 40s reload is lazy and kills said weapon system. Better train up your HAMs and HMLs haha. |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
684
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Posted - 2013.11.16 19:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lvl 2 missile boat.
Why use a cruiser for any lvl 2's ?? grab a corax LM fit and wipe the floor with them.
And any who states that RLML aren't OP obviously just like to be the only cruiser that can charge into the middle of a frig gang and wipe the floor with them. They are happening and they will still do a god job but you will have to learn new stuff. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2013.11.16 19:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
So CCP cut hybrid turret reload time in half from 10 to 5 seconds but let's make RLM reload time 4 times as long?...
I just love CCP sometimes. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
30
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Posted - 2013.11.16 20:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
I just scrapped light missiles 5 from my skill plan glad to not have wasted a week on that. Less happy about how this landslides into me seeing no point in caldari cruiser from 4 to 5, canceling aspirations for a tengu. Switching over to a vexor-ishtar approach caldari has officially been made pointless again just when they had something going for them. With good BS skills and drones, "caldari subsystems", "heavy assault missiles" and "caldari cruiser" is too much compared to "gallente cruiser" and HAC's. The well of ever-overflowing shid is back on it's proper holistic kraptastic approach to the brown hole in the middle the missile tree's universe. Plz don't bring up cruise missiles, yes CCP thank you for non poop raven hulls and missiles still don't do what guns do and their real strength is evading E-war. Yes, that was disgustingly whiney. |
Chessur
Strontless Mistakes Fatal Ascension
263
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Posted - 2013.11.16 21:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:I just scrapped light missiles 5 from my skill plan glad to not have wasted a week on that. Less happy about how this landslides into me seeing no point in caldari cruiser from 4 to 5, canceling aspirations for a tengu. Switching over to a vexor-ishtar approach caldari has officially been made pointless again just when they had something going for them. With good BS skills and drones, "caldari subsystems", "heavy assault missiles" and "caldari cruiser" is too much compared to "gallente cruiser" and HAC's. The well of ever-overflowing shid is back on it's proper holistic kraptastic approach to the brown hole in the middle the missile tree's universe. Plz don't bring up cruise missiles, yes CCP thank you for non poop raven hulls and missiles still don't do what guns do and their real strength is evading E-war. Yes, that was disgustingly whiney.
Even then- the typhoon is a much better cruise missile platorm than the raven will ever be. |
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
79
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Posted - 2013.11.16 21:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Golem is a great cruise platform, and so is the Rattlesnake, for PvE that is. |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
687
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Posted - 2013.11.16 21:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Back on topic as the guys above will derail into a whine fest about RLML
Cruiser for lvl 2's are pretty overkill TBH.
Destroyers are perfect for them.
Something like this will eat through lvl 2's quicker than you can think about them.
[Corax, lvl 2 hunter]
Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher_2, Scourge Light Missile
1MN Afterburner II_2 Medium Shield Extender II_2 Shield Recharger II_2 Shield Recharger II_2
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I_2 Power Diagnostic System II_2
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I_2 Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I_2 Small Core Defense Field Purger I_2
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
31
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Posted - 2013.11.16 22:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vexor hull class, release drones fit remote-rep eat popcorn. Other then that I would go with a corax and FoF missiles. Edit: Just because I can. |
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Hrett
Justified Chaos
240
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Posted - 2013.11.16 22:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Maybe I am out of my mind, but I think the RLML changes are going to make them completely overpowered in small gang. I can't figure out why people are fussing about the changes. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Chessur
Strontless Mistakes Fatal Ascension
263
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Posted - 2013.11.16 22:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Maybe I am out of my mind, but I think the RLML changes are going to make them completely overpowered in small gang. I can't figure out why people are fussing about the changes.
This has been beat to death in the RLML thread.
Simply put: 40 Second reload time is WAY to long to be sitting around doing nothing. With the new changes to warp speed mechanics, and the nature of small gang vs blob warfare- the inbability for a ship to quickly change ammo types based on the situation simply kills the viability of the weapon system.
Its fine for blobs, but really- anything works provided you have enough of it. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
31
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Posted - 2013.11.16 23:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Funny thing is this change is horrible from a mechanical perspective. Missiles suffer from a lowered applied dps due to overkill through delayed damage application. Potential dps loss is raised tremendously with the change, I think this argument was raised in the RLML thread. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
278
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Posted - 2013.11.17 00:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:The Golem is a great cruise platform, and so is the Rattlesnake, for PvE that is. Rattlesnake is a drone boat that can also fit missiles, not a missile boat. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
442
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Cruiser for lvl 2's are pretty overkill TBH.
Destroyers are perfect for them.
Something like this will eat through lvl 2's quicker than you can think about them.
[Corax, lvl 2 hunter]
...
1MN Afterburner II_2
...
While the Corax' damage is fine, it's not about what you can or cannot do with the Corax. The Caracal goes faster with a prop mod than the Corax. Since getting to level 3 is all you want from level 2 missions anyway, the Caracal was clearly better in this. Remove insurance. |
Maethilar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.11.17 11:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
The fact is that players will have options like Corax or other ships, but from a PVE perspective the RLML will be useless, no one will use them for missions. That's my point of view CCP have turned them a PVP option only, and still in PVP it will be very situational. I believe in the end they will turn into a forgotten module. |
kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
14
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Posted - 2013.11.17 12:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:And any who states that RLML aren't OP obviously just like to be the only cruiser that can charge into the middle of a frig gang and wipe the floor with them. They are happening and they will still do a god job but you will have to learn new stuff. For solo, you need to be able to adapt to changing situations. That means changing ammo and facing various hull sizes. New module can't change ammo and the max dps (which will be applied to cruiser+) has been lowered to about 200. A figure that just outdoes T1 frigs.
For a missile small gang, where you have support in the form of Rapier/Huginn, HAM/HML beats RLML.
For blobby F1 jockeys, new RLML is great.
For a small group of 2-3 players or so all in RLML Caracals it's a buff. They warp in, focus target , drop their load and jump out again.
For PvE, it's more dead than that fox I saw on the M25. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
344
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Posted - 2013.11.17 12:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
I like the bit where nobody on this forum has worked out that if you split your Launchers in two, you get only slightly less DPS over time but also have the option of a big burst of DPS if needed.
Because apparently that makes a weapon system ****. |
Maethilar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.11.17 12:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:I like the bit where nobody on this forum has worked out that if you split your Launchers in two, you get only slightly less DPS over time but also have the option of a big burst of DPS if needed.
Because apparently that makes a weapon system ****.
I'm sure that splitting weapons doesn't reduces the reload time. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
344
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Posted - 2013.11.17 13:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Maethilar wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:I like the bit where nobody on this forum has worked out that if you split your Launchers in two, you get only slightly less DPS over time but also have the option of a big burst of DPS if needed.
Because apparently that makes a weapon system ****. I'm sure that splitting weapons doesn't reduces the reload time.
No...
But if you fire one rack to exhaustion, then fire the other rack, you maintain constant DPS.
Which was my point. |
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Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
31
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Posted - 2013.11.17 13:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
I get the concept Danny, but I don't feel 20% is anything to scoff at. Also you will deal with uneven numbers of launchers. |
Maethilar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.11.17 13:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Maethilar wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:I like the bit where nobody on this forum has worked out that if you split your Launchers in two, you get only slightly less DPS over time but also have the option of a big burst of DPS if needed.
Because apparently that makes a weapon system ****. I'm sure that splitting weapons doesn't reduces the reload time. No... But if you fire one rack to exhaustion, then fire the other rack, you maintain constant DPS. Which was my point.
You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1929
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 13:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Maethilar wrote:You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off. But the damage is being buffed a lot. Oh god. |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
68
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Posted - 2013.11.17 13:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Maethilar wrote:You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off. But the damage is being buffed a lot. Also, you can still use LM Caracal and save yourself a bunch of powergrid for stuff. But sustained damage is being nerfed a lot, along with increased powergrid for launchers. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1931
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 13:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm betting Stoicfaux will run some numbers. Oh god. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
344
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Posted - 2013.11.17 13:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Maethilar wrote:You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off. But the damage is being buffed a lot. Also, you can still use LM Caracal and save yourself a bunch of powergrid for stuff. But sustained damage is being nerfed a lot, along with increased powergrid for launchers.
I think you lose about 20% of your sustained DPS.
But then again you get almost double DPS for rapid enagements such as when burning off gates or if you get tackled and need to quickly kill the tackler.
It has advantages and disadvantages but to say the change makes them bad is fairly small minded. |
Delucian
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
64
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Posted - 2013.11.17 14:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maybe only a name change is in order after the mechanic changes to;
Not Quite So Rapid Light Missile Launchers (NQSRLML) |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
31
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Posted - 2013.11.17 16:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:I think you lose about 20% of your sustained DPS.
But then again you get almost double DPS for rapid enagements such as when burning off gates or if you get tackled and need to quickly kill the tackler.
It has advantages and disadvantages but to say the change makes them bad is fairly small minded.
That is one scenario indeed, in the end though outside that scenario which is really not an offensive scenario just defense. RLML are now tunnel-visioned on frigates only with a 20% sustained dps nerf. In the end the amount of scenarios possible will show. For now RLML are a dumb choice for PvE, and with a high degree of certainty will be the last choice for any serious cruiser based team play. |
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
81
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 17:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
I tested HAMs vs RMLs. I usied a Cerberus with 3 BDUs plus the launcher types. Nothing on the Cerb will change except the launcher. Ammo will be Caldari Navy light missiles, and Caldari Navy heavy missiles.
I will post combat log, and other toons date of birth. Ships fit will stay the same for both missile types.
HAMs 617.3 DPS Rate of Fire - 2.5sec Explosion Radius - 88m Explosion Velocity - 160.59m/sec
RMLs 340 DPS Rate of Fire - 3.7sec Explosion Radius - 28m Explosion Velocity - 270.3m/sec
Test pilot - 2007-10-10, Armor pilot - 2007-01-21, Shield pilot - 2008-11-23
RMLs - against Cerberus - MWD on - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD Off - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
against Thorax - MWD on - 05:53:51 Combat 566 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD off - 05:54:01 Combat 567 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
against Ishtar - MWD on - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD off - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
against Stabber - MWD on - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
against Gila - MWD on - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
HAMs - against Thorax - MWD on 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
against Ishtar - MWD on - 06:22:01 Combat175 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:22:32 Combat 188 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
against Stabber - MWD on - 06:24:19 Combat 297 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:25:18 Combat 316 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
against Gila - MWD on - 06:28:13 Combat 755 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:28:40 Combat 443 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
against Cerberus - MWD on - 06:32:39 Combat 192 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits MWD off - 06:41:01 Combat 275 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
Intereting RMLs won against T1s, HAMs won against faction, and with a MWD RMLs won slightly, but also need to take in account the HAMs firing 1.2sec faster. But with MWD off the HAMs won against HACs. Wow did not see that. also this was tested on the regular EVE server, not the test server.
So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed. Their range is much less, explosion radius is more, explain velocity is less and taking a couple seconds from RofF will keep their DPS in check. Don't allow cruisers, BCs or BS to give their explosion bonuses to rapids. Also rockets still won't get the range or DPS HAMs would, and HAMs wouldn't get the DPS torps would, if adjusted right, it could work. See I fixed rapids. If rapids get the 40s reload, rpaids will be pretty much useless and you will be better off with HAMs. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
244
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Posted - 2013.11.17 17:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed.
So if I understand correctly a Rapid Light Rocket Launcher (RLRL)? I love this idea. Maybe CCP could come up with this and leave the RLML alone! |
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