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Cat Troll
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
395
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Posted - 2013.11.16 20:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just reread the chronicle. It seems strange that the Jovians lost 1/3rd of their ships to the Amarr. The Jovians came in with frigates, against the Amarr's mostly battleships with light support fleet, and even with their advanced technology managed to lose 1/3rd of their ships. And at that time, the Amarr didn't have things like T2 ships, weapons and modules, not to mention a capital ship on field.
Am I wrong to assume that the Jovians aren't as powerful as people make them out to be? Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off." |
Isis Dea
State Protectorate Caldari State
406
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Posted - 2013.11.16 22:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cat Troll wrote:I just reread the chronicle. It seems strange that the Jovians lost 1/3rd of their ships to the Amarr. The Jovians came in with frigates, against the Amarr's mostly battleships with light support fleet, and even with their advanced technology managed to lose 1/3rd of their ships. And at that time, the Amarr didn't have things like T2 ships, weapons and modules, not to mention a capital ship on field.
Am I wrong to assume that the Jovians aren't as powerful as people make them out to be?
T1 Frigates and cruisers against an entire Reclaimer fleet. To imagine they made obsolete even the reaching laser batteries of the Amarrian's finest.
You tend to forget that while the Jovians are a dying race they're still not dead. And just because we don't hear anything that happens in their space does not mean they're not active.
For every piece of technology we invent, they've already multiple counters waiting.
If you want to gauge their strength simply look at CONCORD. CONCORD is built using Jovian tech and was founded by the Jovians in protecting their investment of the capsule, now seeded amongst the four races.
This is why CONCORD doesn't care about NPC pirates nor about anything short of making sure all four empires hold a seat at the Assembly. After all, this is what the Jovians wished. Their mindset is far above petty squabbles of the mortals as witnessed within that same chronicle.
And this is one reason a lot of us who follow the lore think Rubicon somewhat spits on what CONCORD is/cares about. And the use of their identifier behind recent live events has also tarnished their name. |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
286
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Posted - 2013.11.17 00:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Also to keep in mind, technological superiority does not mean you're invincible. Sure the Amarr managed to take down some Jove ships, but at the same time Jove massacred a full reclaimer fleet like Isis said - a fleet that was to my understanding hundreds of ships strong - which, at the time, around 200 years ago, was one huge ass fleet. With a weapon that could in fairly rapid succession take down some of the tankiest battleships around with single shots. This is a feat surpassed only by the battle of Mekhios and that probably won't be revisited ever again unless Terrans managed to crawl to New Eden from somewhre.
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Cat Troll
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
395
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Posted - 2013.11.17 05:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
It was 200 battleships, and if it wasn't for the Minmatar rebellions the Amarr were about to counter attack with a much bigger fleet.
The chronicle itself said that 200 battleships is a small fleet for the Amarr, they didn't expect resistance. Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off." |
Jove Death
Jovian Vengeance Sanctuary Pact
183
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Posted - 2013.11.18 15:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
1/3rd of the fight was lost due to our scouts sitting still in the first few moments of the engagement which as u are aware the amarr can actually hit u at that point.
When we managed to get to full speed running the the 5 ship layout they found it hard to hit us. We were only there to hold them down and let mother blow the crap out of each one Quoting "you will die" in EvE is fail Chars dont die in EvE. Unless you have a heart attack eek
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Cat Troll
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
396
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Posted - 2013.11.18 19:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jove Death wrote:1/3rd of the fight was lost due to our scouts sitting still in the first few moments of the engagement which as u are aware the amarr can actually hit u at that point. When we managed to get to full speed running the the 5 ship layout they found it hard to hit us. We were only there to hold them down and let mother blow the crap out of each one Only one ship was lost to that. Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off." |
Roga Dracor
Ultramarine Corp
574
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Posted - 2013.11.20 16:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Another thing most people seem to neglect here is that the Jovians were most likely capsuleers in this engagement, if most of the ships were frigates and cruisers, it was simply material loss. Their pilots were not lost, and it is debatable whether the Jovians lost any lives.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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CCP Falcon
4644
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
...the who?
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Manager -á || -á EVE Illuminati
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5474
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sleepers? Architects?
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs |
Roga Dracor
Ultramarine Corp
575
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Posted - 2013.11.21 07:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Trill?? It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Cat Troll
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
396
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Posted - 2013.11.21 15:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...the who?
meow? Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off." |
Jove Death
The Jovian Navy
195
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...the who?
I know what your trying to do. It wont work
Quoting "you will die" in EvE is fail Chars dont die in EvE. Unless you have a heart attack eek
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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
91
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Posted - 2013.11.24 17:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...the who?
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
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CCP Falcon
4702
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Posted - 2013.11.26 10:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb
I actually have something very interesting on my desk that has this inscribed on the front of it. The back of it is black, and is covered with a map, of sorts.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Manager -á || -á EVE Illuminati
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Denak Calamari
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
127
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Posted - 2013.11.26 10:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:I actually have something very interesting on my desk that has this inscribed on the front of it. The back of it is black, and is covered with a map, of sorts. Stop teasing us! Grahisha of the Intaki Liberation Front // Writer of Thoughts of a Clone Soldier // Latest entry, Honour published 24/11/13 |
Dangirdas Bachir
The Scope Gallente Federation
612
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Posted - 2013.11.26 12:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
I am 100% sure that if the Jovians didn't go beyond their limits and killed themselves of by the "Jovian disease" they would have had control over the whole New Eden by this time. EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5502
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Posted - 2013.11.26 14:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb
I actually have something very interesting on my desk that has this inscribed on the front of it. The back of it is black, and is covered with a map, of sorts.
A map of Anoikis...?
A City of Sleepers... is built in dreams? ;) Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
618
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Granted, I may not totally remember the story, but it was mentioned that much of the Jovian victory was Amarrian overconfidence (they expected little resistance) and Jovian reconnaissance and planning. Just as much as it was a technological victory.
With us creating Tech 2 equipment and now reverse engineering Sleeper technology and with the Jovian disease likely causing stagnation. I suspect the empire have mostly caught up with the Jovians. I also suspect they may not have been as far ahead as they led us to believe (at least as far as ship to ship combat goes. genetic engineering wise, they smoke the empires for all the good that does. Do recall they have a school devoted to teaching aggression, so we should be better at fighting since we still take to that easily) |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
104
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Posted - 2013.12.01 02:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb
I actually have something very interesting on my desk that has this inscribed on the front of it. The back of it is black, and is covered with a map, of sorts. Ooh, cool
A map of Jove space?? Or Anoikis?? Ooh, now I'm curious!
So, any idea if you guys will ever be expanding on the connections revealed in templar one? The SoE ships (especially the Nestor) seem kind of telling of future events.. maybe.
But anyhow, that's really cool "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
kyanwest eveprofile Chelien
Hidden Anomaly
1
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...the who?
I love them :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afam2nIae4o |
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Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Capital Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.12.02 13:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
I thought they were all dead. I mean back when incusions launched wasnt there somewere a lore saying how the empires sended a probe into on of those wh the sanshas use to move around and got 1 picture of a sansha armada somewere in jove space? |
Jovienne
Maya-Anoikis
0
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Posted - 2013.12.07 02:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:I thought they were all dead. Weak? Dead? Both, and yet, neither.
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
79
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Posted - 2013.12.08 00:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
It is strange. Jove had possibly all the advantages and still managed to lose 1/3 of their fleet.
Jove advantages:
- more advanced ships and technology for that time compared to other major races
- mothership with cannons created specifically for this battle that can blow up battleships in one shot
- probably all of their ships were piloted by capsuleers (which is a huge advantage)
- one of the Amarrian commanders was a Jove spy
- Jove had all the information about assault even before the Amarrian commanders had received the information
- Amarrian communications broke down in the middle of the battle
- and there was a mutiny aboard one of the Amarrian command ships
btw do not forget that even Grand Admiral Mekioth Sarum was not so sure about VakGÇÖAtioth assault plans 'cause they were complete in such a short time.
So this all begs the question: could Jove won without all the leaked info and their spy.
also this
fun fact: If you take blockade lvl 4 you would need to lose ~10 ships (in fleet of 30 people) per mission to replicate Joves success in Vak'Atioth battle, doesn't sound great at all. (Yes, yes I know missions lol, but they are the only environment where we can see how crew operated ships perform vs capsuleer operated ships)
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Vidua Arte Album
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.12.08 18:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jovienne wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:I thought they were all dead. Weak? Dead? Both, and yet, neither. Sister? |
Jai Centarium
Anqara Expeditions
1
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Posted - 2013.12.10 17:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:I thought they were all dead. I mean back when incusions launched wasnt there somewere a lore saying how the empires sended a probe into on of those wh the sanshas use to move around and got 1 picture of a sansha armada somewere in jove space?
Just because there's a Sansha Armada in Jove space doesn't mean the Jove are dead. Perhaps the Jove are fighting the Sansha much like the Empires are: By first focusing on protecting planetside populations and then dealing with the spaceborne threat. An armada in your constellation isn't much of a threat if you can protect its objectives.
In fact, it could mean they're very much alive. In fact, if you want to get really tinfoiled, Sansha's philosophies sound like a solution to the problems created by the Jovian Disease. A small, cybernetically enhanced elite leading a horde of hive mind slaves? What more could a dying race want? |
Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Capital Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.12.11 01:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:It is strange. Jove had possibly all the advantages and still managed to lose 1/3 of their fleet. Jove advantages:
- more advanced ships and technology for that time compared to other major races
- mothership with cannons created specifically for this battle that can blow up battleships in one shot
- probably all of their ships were piloted by capsuleers (which is a huge advantage)
- one of the Amarrian commanders was a Jove spy
- Jove had all the information about assault even before the Amarrian commanders had received the information
- Amarrian communications broke down in the middle of the battle
- and there was a mutiny aboard one of the Amarrian command ships
btw do not forget that even Grand Admiral Mekioth Sarum was not so sure about VakGÇÖAtioth assault plans 'cause they were complete in such a short time. So this all begs the question: could Jove won without all the leaked info and their spy. also thisfun fact: If you take blockade lvl 4 you would need to lose ~10 ships (in fleet of 30 people) per mission to replicate Joves success in Vak'Atioth battle, doesn't sound great at all. (Yes, yes I know missions lol, but they are the only environment where we can see how crew operated ships perform vs capsuleer operated ships)
The battle of vakatioth must have looked more like a well formed amarr atack force with support ships that consited of cruisers and frigates as expected with webs and something knowed of the amarr neuts. While the Jova armade had frigate sized or smaller ships around t2 frigs. (and the mother ships
Quote:The Jovian forces split into smaller wings, each numbering 5 ships, all equipped with devastating Jovian laser technology. Accelerating with frightening speed, they dove into the Amarrian attack forces. Amarrian cruisers equipped with close-range weaponry moved to intercept as wave after wave of the smaller vessels engaged single targets, like a furious pack of wolves, dodging and weaving, maximizing maneuverability.
and ship webbed infront of a amarr BS could be called dead.
And while your compare the battle to the blockade lvl4. You are comparing it to the worst rat AI in the game. And still if you do missions with a couple of friends in t2 frigs loses can be expected. And i am really wondering why you thinkt he amarr armade had the brain dead AI of lvl4 rats and not the powerfull and clever brain of incursion rats that can alpha BS of grid and actually focus fire (and use webs, scrams, neuts , boost). If you tell me that the amarr army looked anything like that i could accept those few loses from the jove |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
285
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jove are not weak, but they're not nearly as powerful as they've made people think. That was the whole point of Vak'atioth... the Jove manufactured an event to make them look far more powerful than they really were, to discourage anyone else from trying to attack them. It was not an indication of actual Jovian military might, since it wasn't a straight fight--it was a trap.
Articles say that the Amarr took lessons from the battle and had superior tactics (and larger numbers) prepared for the second assault. It is likely that, if the war had progressed beyond the first battle, the Amarr would have actually won, or at least done significant damage to the Jove. Vak'atioth (and the subsequent Minmatar Rebellion) was deliberately engineered by the Jove to make themselves look impregnable and discourage any future assaults against their territory. |
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
9
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Posted - 2013.12.19 15:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Power leads to arrogance, and I'm pretty sure the Jove have that in bucketfuls. Plus, whilst I'm not familiar with the chronicle being referenced with 1/3rd of the Jove ships going down, it could be the Amarr just wanted to save face, of course they'll say that . |
Thirtythousand
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.12.20 03:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Serious spoilers following.
Afaik, the Jove as explained in lore is dead. At the end of empyrean age and further explained in Templar 1.
Bigger spoiler warning.
As far as I understand, they had a disease that killed them when they cloned. Same thing the broker died of (was he a Jove?)
End of big spoilers.
A number of Jove went and found refuge with the sleepers. Sleepers are just Jove who refused to wake up from their intergalactic slumber and instead perfected that realm.
Dust mercs are infused with sleeper tech that the empire's are mining and buying openly from capsuleers.
Tech3 ships are built with heavy usage of sleeper tech, farmed from sleepers in Wh.
Tech 3 ships are essentially Jove tech with empire weapons.
As far as I understand... |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
161
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Posted - 2013.12.20 03:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thirtythousand wrote:Afaik, the Jove as explained in lore is dead. At the end of empyrean age and further explained in Templar 1.
As far as I understand, they had a disease that killed them when they cloned. Same thing the broker died of (was he a Jove?)
A number of Jove went and found refuge with the sleepers. Sleepers are just Jove who refused to wake up from their intergalactic slumber and instead perfected that realm.
Dust mercs are infused with sleeper tech that the empire's are mining and buying openly from capsuleers.
Tech3 ships are built with heavy usage of sleeper tech, farmed from sleepers in Wh.
Tech 3 ships are essentially Jove tech with empire weapons.
As far as I understand...
MORE SPOILERS.
They aren't said to be dead- only Grious says he is dead himself in Templar One, and the Jovians are still alive.
The Jovians didn't find refuge with the Sleepers- the Sleepers (Architects) and the Jovians branched off from each other, the Architects preferring to make their own virtual paradise as opposed to the real world. They may have created the disease themselves to force more Jovians to join them.
Only the original "Templars" were infused with actual Sleeper implants- they were defective as a result of having used implants literally harvested from sleeper bodies. They now have reverse-engineered implants that aren't actually from Sleepers.
You're right about Tech 3 ships being built with reverse-engineered sleeper tech, but it is not Jovian tech. Look at my bio in-game to see the actual Jovian ships- the sleeper drones Tech 3 ships are made from are a completely different kind of tech.
I read a lot of the lore and would love for CCP to expand on the Jovians once again- maybe with the introduction of player-made stargates, they'll appear again for some reason. "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
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