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General Xenophon
League of Gentlemen SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.11.22 23:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cloaking - The hunt.
Cloaking as it currently stands, is a wonderful and dreadful (to one's enemies) technique to cause paranoia and in many situatons, cripple economic activity or at the very least, seriously hinder it. All it takes is one cloaky camper to disrupt a busy system.
However, as great as cloaking is, there really is no serious counter to this, and this presents a problem to balance (which in itself is always a process). This proposal seeks to keep cloaking, but enhance the experience as a whole and add a deadly new element to it: Scanning and counter scanning.
The Hunt for Red Cloaked Bomber
I propose a new scanning method, which while needing refining in specifics, makes cloaking more exciting and dangerous, but hopefully also presents a challenge to Scanner pilots as well. It must make the cloaker work to stay hidden, and those trying to find the cloaker won't be out of harms way either. I like to think of those submarine movies where its hunter becoming the hunted, but the skilled hunter can still punch back or get away.
New Probes:
I propose that there be a new specific cloak scanning class probe, which requires 4 things: 1) a new class of scan probe, called a covert probe. It takes time to scan down, I would say 1-3 minutes (time needs refining) to complete and any interruption -due to the high technology of cloaking, and the newness of this new tech- clears this scan. 2) at minimum, 3 people to activate and scan at once together to find the cloaker. This timing mechanic may require a new feature of 'sensor linking' which once pilots are in position they may click this option to 'link' scanners. 3) like a cyno but without the cool-down, while scanning, the ships cannot move. They can use weapons and hardeners but they can't move until the module is turned off. Signal boosters will have no effect on this module (and shouldn't). IF any one of the 3 stops scanning, the signal is lost. This prevents -in theory- simply module spamming to get away from a scan gone wrong, warping away, and just picking up where was left off, otherwise it would be unfair to the cloaker to be totally unable to stop being found. 4. While scanning you CANNOT activate a cloak yourself - this would interfere with the scanning process and or render any previous covert scans, useless. This scanning data is not stable and is a fluid process. Cloaking while scanning like this would give the benefit too far to the scanners while leaving the cloaked ship at a distinct disadvantage.
Scanners:
This means Scanners are knowingly putting their ships in harms way to hunt the cloaked ship. I think some restrictions should be in place, such as not being able to do this by or inside of a pos or by a station, and scanners must be in different locations. The moment the module is stopped they can move again, but if any one of them moves they lose signal. In-game story-wise, perhaps these structures which are full of electronics, somehow interfere with the scan (a story can be made), but the purpose of this is not to sit safely inside a pos and just merely scan away while the cloaker is losing his or her mind.
If the cloaker is a bomber and attacks them while they are scanning, this 'red flags' the bomber, causing the scan to get closer to a complete lock onto their signal (so not de-cloaking, but bumping the scan up to say 70-85% complete scan which gives the scanners much less scanning to do as their scanning has identified the ships type through this special scanning. It's a calculated risk by the scanners to sit and scan, and the cloaker to engage or deploy counter probes and stay more safely hidden. If the cloaker engages, they must be made to work harder and deploy MORE counter-measures* to undo the damage to their stealth.
WHEN THE SCAN IS COMPLETED, THE CLOAKER LOSES THEIR CLOAK NO MATTER WHERE IN THE SYSTEM THEY ARE. Cannot cloak for x amount of time, otherwise the whole process is a waste of time. Cloak disabled for x minutes. This means the scanners must still work to find where the ship is, and the cloaker is now able to be found but can still fly around. It takes their cloak away temporarily, and makes them vulnerable to attack. This mechanic is tricky. It may require showing the cloaker how 'close' they are to being found on their scanners. Or alert them of a scan in progress. This does need discussion.
I am up for discussion on this as well, but it seems wise that a cloaked 'signal' is found from a list of signals available to scan. A de-cloak in this manner should de-cloak that one target, much like when you scan you find a target. I do not believe it would be wise to have a system wide de-cloak for all cloaked objects as this would be a bit over the top.
The Cloaker:
The cloaker must be made to do more than either sit still or move around while cloaked to remain hidden. I propose the cloaker must deploy counter signals, and vary these so you can't just auto repeat the same counter probe as this would just leave clear bread crumbs about where you were whereas different signals help mask this. These 'counter signals' would be in the form of deployable probes, but must require 4 different types (based off signals) to confuse the scanners. The cloaker cannot use auto-repeat and must switch probe types. Once deployed, they MUST warp away from the deployed counter probes, otherwise it's like lighting a giant signal fire on a hill to say to the barbarians/zombies "GUYS! I'm RIGHT HERE!" |
General Xenophon
League of Gentlemen SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.11.22 23:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
I believe the system shouldn't punish someone for cloaking, but make it a challenge. I'm up in the air about if the counter measure probes should be larger in size (to occupy more inventory space), and so limit the number a ship can use in one sitting. This would then also limit the time a cloaker can spend in a system without being found. I believe these probes and counter measure modules SHOULD be based on ship class. Each ship has a unique signature radius or 'signal' it gives off, so saying a carrier should use the same probe size or number of probes to keep itself hidden (note: if you're hiding in a carrier you're probably already well on your way to being boned... Ie, this is just an example of ship size difference) as say a frigate, is silly. It also would allow ships with larger cargo sizes to carry more counter measures and unfairly punish smaller ships. In theory, it should be HARDER for a larger and slower ship to stay hidden with this method, but not impossible. I do not want this idea to 'break' cloaking.
Request for Suggestions: *The math for CPU/Powergrid needs some suggestions. Should there be a new class of scanner required? Or just probes? *Should there be a special covert scanner class ship designed with only finding cloaked ships in mind? Ie, we have a helios, but should there be a ship with more 'hightened' scanners for this purpose and can survive a bomb or alpha but has no real attack bonus? *The scanning time for this joint scan needs to be balanced. Is 3 minutes too long? Too short? (is that what she said?) *The counter probes 'size' may need to be discussed - I'm not sure if a cloakers time in a system should be permanent, or if they should be limited by the number of 'counters' they have on-board. The main purpose of this idea is not to prevent cloak camping, but to make it skill based and a challenge. This enhances the feature, rather than just nerf batting it out of existence. *New skills for this probe type - CCP loves adding new skills! Oprah CCP says skills for everyone! - What would these skills do? *Multiple groups of scanners doing the same thing - should this be limited or not? Makes is VERY hard if multiple groups are scanning at once. Would this be too hard (ie 'unfair' or break cloaking) for the cloaker? |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
449
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Posted - 2013.11.22 23:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
ill be honest, TL:DR.
in null admit it.. you already can make mountains more isk for little risk if your in the middle of your alliance space, even Lowsec isk makers have more risk and perhaps highsec "pro" mission runners in their multi billion isk mission machines from gankers and AWOXers....
all this said...
i do however like the submarine reference and perhaps a "sonar" like modual which dosnt tell distance just rough direction so its like a minigame for you bored nullsec people to "hunt" the afk cloaker by triangulating their position, possably used with ceptors with a Mini jump drive or something? |
General Xenophon
League of Gentlemen SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.11.22 23:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:ill be honest, TL:DR.
in null admit it.. you already can make mountains more isk for little risk if your in the middle of your alliance space, even Lowsec isk makers have more risk and perhaps highsec "pro" mission runners in their multi billion isk mission machines from gankers and AWOXers....
all this said...
i do however like the submarine reference and perhaps a "sonar" like modual which dosnt tell distance just rough direction so its like a minigame for you bored nullsec people to "hunt" the afk cloaker by triangulating their position, possably used with ceptors with a Mini jump drive or something?
Thanks :) I believe it should be a challenge on both ends, scanning and cloaking and there is always the added bonus that the cloaker may jump in friends, or lay a trap for the hunters. It could be another exciting element to pvp and eve. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15691
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Posted - 2013.11.23 00:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I guess searching for this thread, was a little too hard?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
General Xenophon
League of Gentlemen SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.11.23 01:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I guess searching for this thread, was a little too hard? Also I don't see any mention of the mechanic, that actually makes cloaking a none covert system at the moment.
Likely, and thanks! Happy for a move if it helps!
Not sure I understand you're 2nd point, do you mean an existing mechanic in Eve or do you mean this thread isn't specific to a mechanic? I'd be happy to explain or edit it if I wasn't clear about the idea! Just let me know :) |
Demica Diaz
The Scope Gallente Federation
81
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
I dont know, it seems to be way too complicated for EVE to be honest. Something simple like deployable module that warns person from certain radius (1 AU, 2AU ect) of incoming warp to your location. Stealthed or not. But to be honest, there has to be risk in EVE and someone dropping fleet on your rear is just part of EVE. Everytime I decloak to hack Data sites I take risk of being engaged, so I have two options. Do not decloak and leave if someone is on local, or take that risk. That means if you do your PvE activities in null you also take risk of going out when some unknown guy is in local. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1582
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Posted - 2013.11.23 06:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:I dont know, it seems to be way too complicated for EVE to be honest. Something simple like deployable module that warns person from certain radius (1 AU, 2AU ect) of incoming warp to your location. Stealthed or not. But to be honest, there has to be risk in EVE and someone dropping fleet on your rear is just part of EVE. Everytime I decloak to hack Data sites I take risk of being engaged, so I have two options. Do not decloak and leave if someone is on local, or take that risk. That means if you do your PvE activities in null you also take risk of going out when some unknown guy is in local.
Yes, non-consensual PvP in null security space...my God what is this game coming too. You are so right we must stop it. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
833
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Posted - 2013.11.23 08:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Would be plenty ok with that IF.. IF local was removed "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15694
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 12:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Mag's wrote:I guess searching for this thread, was a little too hard? Also I don't see any mention of the mechanic, that actually makes cloaking a none covert system at the moment. Likely, and thanks! Happy for a move if it helps! Not sure I understand you're 2nd point, do you mean an existing mechanic in Eve or do you mean this thread isn't specific to a mechanic? I'd be happy to explain or edit it if I wasn't clear about the idea! Just let me know :) The second point refers to the current mechanic that let's you know he's there, even when he's cloaked. You're asking for a cloak nerf, but neglect to mention anything in that regard. Doesn't sound all that balanced tbh.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Hong WeiLoh
Hong's Harriers
20
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Posted - 2013.11.23 17:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
#4--if cloaker attacks: you have to de-cloak to attack people. A targeted ship cannot cloak, so you know who it is, their ship type, and where they are. If you right-click someone in fleet with you, there's the option to "warp to member". Have extra people in fleet NOT in these "ASW" ships ready to pounce, and collect killmail while restoring peace & serenity to your corner of New Eden. Note this is not a new tactic, I believe more "l33t" personages than I refer to it as "baiting".
Lastly this is a very overwrought and needlessly complex solution to a relatively minor problem, that will no doubt have all manner of unintended consequences, er I mean "emergent gameplay" associated if implemented. Therefore it's safe to assume CCP already has devs working on something similar this very moment. |
Jenna Hamalia
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.11.23 17:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
The root of the problem is that cloakers can sit AFK with *ZERO* risk. That is what is broken. Nobody should be completely immune to risk when they are undocked! |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
23
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jenna Hamalia wrote:Nobody should be completely immune to risk when they are undocked!
Why not? People sit in POS shields all day long. Why this line between docked and undocked? Should not I be able to destroy your ship when you are docked also? Should I be able to take a shot at your bomber because you took a bio break? Should I be able to destroy your POS and your POS-protected ship when you go to take out the trash? |
Jenna Hamalia
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote: Why not? People sit in POS shields all day long. Why this line between docked and undocked? Should not I be able to destroy your ship when you are docked also? Should I be able to take a shot at your bomber because you took a bio break? Should I be able to destroy your POS and your POS-protected ship when you go to take out the trash?
When you enter space with your vessel you should be at risk... period... Obviously, some risks are greater than others... However, being in enemy territory and 100% immune from any possible consequences is broken.
The idea of hunting a cloaked ship similar to a submarine adds another element to the game and finally brings some risk on those of us who like to take advantage of the current system. |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
278
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Posted - 2013.11.23 20:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thread locked as duplicate.
Please use this thread to discuss topic. ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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