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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Saeger1737
Pod Repo
353
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:05:00 -
[571] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Tawa Suyo wrote:NightmareX wrote:so we know how the ship works. You don't even know how webs work I know how webs works. That contradicts many of your other posts in this thread.
Michel get in a neut/TD/armor drone curse and nightmare get in your vindi we will see what happens. |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:15:00 -
[572] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Tawa Suyo wrote:NightmareX wrote:so we know how the ship works. You don't even know how webs work I know how webs works. But the more important question is, do you know how the Vindicator works?
Well, it's not. What with the thread being about 90% webs. However, I'll humour you, I know enough from your screenshot that your shitfit has too many stacking penalties (especially with legion links) and doesn't take reps as well as a real fit would.
What did you do? Look for the max ehp in EFT and forget about the resist profiles? That doesn't work outside of trying to survive the deaggression timer in Jita.
Not that a buffer fit, brawling dps ship with a grand total of 6 active modules is exactly the benchmark of complexity.
And no, you really don't know how webs work. There's post after post from you showing that. Hell, you didn't even know that they had stacking penalties. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
403
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:18:00 -
[573] - Quote
Saeger1737 wrote:Michel get in a neut/TD/armor drone curse and nightmare get in your vindi we will see what happens. That's something i have tried quite alot of times. The Vindicator will hit the Curse, but it will tank me because my damage are so low because i'm dual tracking disrupted.
This have been done with Antimatter to, so i know how that will go.
So by reading this topic, the Curse should be nerfed as it can be much more dangeous than a Vindicator with a 90% web and ~1800 DPS and other turret ships. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1014
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:22:00 -
[574] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Saeger1737 wrote:Michel get in a neut/TD/armor drone curse and nightmare get in your vindi we will see what happens. That's something i have tried quite alot of times. The Vindicator will hit the Curse, but it will tank me because my damage are so low because i'm dual tracking disrupted. This have been done with Antimatter to, so i know how that will go. So by reading this topic, the Curse should be nerfed as it can be much more dangeous than a Vindicator with a 90% web and ~1800 DPS and other turret ships.
I have no arguments against recons being nerfed. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
450
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:26:00 -
[575] - Quote
Tawa Suyo wrote:
My one concern is keeping the Serpentis lineup both viable and vaguely interesting. While Blood ships can all match the Bhaalgorn and get web range instead of strength, the Serpentis unique selling point is the 90% web. Without it they're basically weak gallente ships and the raw stats would definitely need buffing (not overly, but some) to keep them competitive.
As OP as web range bonuses are, they don't go as well with 6km or 13km neuts like they do with 26km neuts. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1014
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:28:00 -
[576] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Tawa Suyo wrote:
My one concern is keeping the Serpentis lineup both viable and vaguely interesting. While Blood ships can all match the Bhaalgorn and get web range instead of strength, the Serpentis unique selling point is the 90% web. Without it they're basically weak gallente ships and the raw stats would definitely need buffing (not overly, but some) to keep them competitive.
As OP as web range bonuses are, they don't go as well with 6km or 13km neuts like they do with 26km neuts.
The main problem with those ships is their absolutely awful base stats and slots. You could also give them neut range bonuses |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:28:00 -
[577] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Tawa Suyo wrote:
My one concern is keeping the Serpentis lineup both viable and vaguely interesting. While Blood ships can all match the Bhaalgorn and get web range instead of strength, the Serpentis unique selling point is the 90% web. Without it they're basically weak gallente ships and the raw stats would definitely need buffing (not overly, but some) to keep them competitive.
As OP as web range bonuses are, they don't go as well with 6km or 13km neuts like they do with 26km neuts.
True certainly, but would you really want the neuts to get a range bonus instead? (And I definitely think 90% webs need removing from the game) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1014
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:30:00 -
[578] - Quote
How about web range bonused curor with laser optimal bonus ))) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
450
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:32:00 -
[579] - Quote
>neut range
please no
I'd definitely drop the lasers for drones, and possibly a tank bonus. |
kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:35:00 -
[580] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Saeger1737 wrote:Michel get in a neut/TD/armor drone curse and nightmare get in your vindi we will see what happens. That's something i have tried quite alot of times. The Vindicator will hit the Curse, but it will tank me because my damage are so low because i'm dual tracking disrupted. This have been done with Antimatter to, so i know how that will go. So by reading this topic, the Curse should be nerfed as it can be much more dangeous than a Vindicator with a 90% web and ~1800 DPS and other turret ships. I have no arguments against recons being nerfed. They need to be powerful or nobody would fly them.
Other than that I am with you, from what you've posted here and elsewhere you come across as a professional internet spaceship flier. |
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Naomi Anthar
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 23:48:00 -
[581] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:>neut range
please no
I'd definitely drop the lasers for drones, and possibly a tank bonus.
no man ... Geddon was stripped from lasers . Now BR ships too ? I cannot let this happen. Especially for Drones. We got Rattle, Dominix, Dominx Navy, Geddon, Nestor(yes now too) ... and you want another Drone Bhaal :<<<<. That would be hella sad.
Show some love to lasers.
What i think is that there should be reason to put lasers on BR ships instead of neuts ... my idea is to increase laser bonus to 150% role bonus. No it will not be op. Damage of all BR ships is super pathethic. With that buff it will be just doable.
And if we speak about lasers, do same to Sansha ships - and remove 2nd damage bonus with something CREATIVE (not yet another damage bonus) like shield hp bonus per level (not creative but very uncommon ... or ignores 7,5% per level em/thermal resist of target (ignores only for your energy turrets).
Basically Sansha needs something THAT MAKES THEM UNIQUE - not just looks. Right now they are damage + damage + damage(in form of tracking). No utility, no tankyness bonus. hell even those damage bonuses are lazy ... |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1015
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 00:16:00 -
[582] - Quote
I think it would be pretty cool if all the pirate factions got heating bonuses.
Like blood raiders should have neut range bonus when heating neuts, sansha could get increased tracking while heating guns, etc.
Couple that with a role bonus like 20% reduced heat release. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
452
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 00:41:00 -
[583] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:>neut range
please no
I'd definitely drop the lasers for drones, and possibly a tank bonus. no man ... Geddon was stripped from lasers . Now BR ships too ? I cannot let this happen. Especially for Drones. We got Rattle, Dominix, Dominx Navy, Geddon, Nestor(yes now too) ... and you want another Drone Bhaal :<<<<. That would be hella sad. Show some love to lasers. What i think is that there should be reason to put lasers on BR ships instead of neuts ... my idea is to increase laser bonus to 150% role bonus. No it will not be op. Damage of all BR ships is super pathethic. With that buff it will be just doable. And if we speak about lasers, do same to Sansha ships - and remove 2nd damage bonus with something CREATIVE (not yet another damage bonus) like shield hp bonus per level (not creative but very uncommon ... or ignores 7,5% per level em/thermal resist of target (ignores only for your energy turrets). Basically Sansha needs something THAT MAKES THEM UNIQUE - not just looks. Right now they are damage + damage + damage(in form of tracking). No utility, no tankyness bonus. hell even those damage bonuses are lazy ...
It's funny how sansha ships currently have fewer effective turrets than serpentis and angel ships, when sansha are a line of 'just guns' ships, whereas serpentis and angel ships do other things as well. I also find it weird how sansha's nation, the faction who try to shield tank, but basically kind of suck at it, are still handing out armour buffer implants after all these years. I could go for some lasers + missiles split weapons maybe, as long as it's the good kind of split weapons, rather than the TFI/ScFI kind.
For bloodraiders I could handle lasers if they had, say, 15% per level neutraliser cap usage bonus and enormous cap/sec on the ship. Mandatory cap booster isn't fun. Trying to fit a no-bonuses armour brawler with 3 lowslots isn't fun either. Maybe they could get more of a minmatar flavour somehow, since right now they're basically just completely amarr. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1668
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 01:01:00 -
[584] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.
Standard CCP method of fixing things is to simply throw them out the window, so I'm not seeing anything abnormal here.
Caleb Seremshur wrote:change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT.
Public testing & listening to player feedback before making an arbitrary decision and shoving it down everyone's throat goes against everything CCP believes in, you know that.
Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
781
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 03:19:00 -
[585] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Stasis webifier effects do indeed have a stacking penalty. It's actually a good point that we should add a mention of that fact to their descriptions. And don't touch them. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
86
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 06:30:00 -
[586] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:Michael 1 - 0 Mind Games.
Think your score card is broken, bro. Mind Games. was never part of this thread. A few members of Mind Games. are fond of our vindicators. How's Blink going for ya Ueber?
I don't speak for Nightmare, and he certainly doesn't speak for me. I'd never post such direct information about our operations as he has. I nearly convo'd him earlier and asked him not to. Seems like I should have. I also don't argue with the Holy Sword of Great Justice of mathematics that theory crafters who've never flown the ship swear by. It's not worth my time. Show me where you've flown the ship. I know Ueber has, but I'm fairly certain several people who are so against the webs haven't, so have no idea how that ship operates from the other side of it.
Regardless, Question still stands: How often do the people complaining about the vindicator use it? And the few that do, how?
Which also brings another question: How many ways do you need to be able to counter a ship before you don't consider it OP? How many drawbacks does it need?
Complaining that a ship doing exactly what it was designed to do, how it was designed to, and doing it really well is really pretty silly. The Vindi's effective engagement range is about 15k, and that's pushing it. Yes, it webs farther with faction webs and links, but large blasters with void are really bad at that range, if not because your target is moving too much then because you are, trying to move around the battle field.
Last I checked, Vindicators weren't running rampant around all of Eve, an unstoppable plague damning the rest the galaxy to darkness and despair. They are something you see in very specific roles. Outside of those roles, they are shiny kill mails. Unless I'm mistaken and the great Vindication has begun? In which case, lemme know.
I mean, now someone is suggesting nerf the recons too?
The same guy I asked how often he flew any of the ships he's so adamantly speaking against and didn't answer?
Well, at least he flies recons... some.
IDK about you, but I REALLY don't want every ship to be the same ship with a different skin. I'd much rather play a game that has a huge amount of variety.
I do fly dreads. I do fly Vindicators. I do fly Logistics, links, triage, slow cats, recons, blah blah blah. If not all of them on this char, then on my alt. I'm not hiding anything. My eveboards are public, as are my alts. I make mistakes, lose ships for stupid reasons, miss fights cause I hesitate. But I've flown the ships before I start talking. The vindicator is one of my favorite ships, but it's also one of the most gut wrenching. There is so much at risk when vindicators hit the field. Vindi's have many of the same risk factor as caps.... with 1/5th the ehp.
Vindicators, serpentis web bonuses, are not a problem. They are a well known bonus that functions in a very finite range that is also open and vulnerable to every counter Eve can offer. They are meant to be finely tuned weapons of war that answer to no one in their specific role. Really tough ships.... but killable, and rather easily outside that role. Pretty much any other game, there are enemies that don't back down, don't just roll over and die for you. The Pirate ships are supposed to be that line of ships in Eve. Killable.... but a pilot had better come prepared. All of them have ways to be countered. And yes, that way to counter is sometimes just not fighting them, waiting for a more opportune battle. Some of them need some serious love. But the balancing of the Pirate ships isn't in nerfing the few that are working well. The Saber didn't get nerfed into the ground cause it was working well. All the others were modified, then they were all buffed with the launcher changes. But nerfing the few that are actually working, and working well is not the answer. Yes, there are definitely some concerns in how things stack in Eve. It's pretty silly that 10 webs can't web something down to 1m/s, or dead still. That's the fault of bad stacking mechanics though, not a ship line that has a strong set of bonuses.
The Law is a point of View |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 10:25:00 -
[587] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:[quote=Ueberlisk]Regardless, Question still stands: How often do the people complaining about the vindicator use it? And the few that do, how?.
Most of the people i know that are readly adamant about the vindi's bonus being OP are people that regularly use Vindi's with dreads. so yea. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
87
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 10:32:00 -
[588] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kenrailae wrote:[quote=Ueberlisk]Regardless, Question still stands: How often do the people complaining about the vindicator use it? And the few that do, how?. Most of the people i know that are readly adamant about the vindi's bonus being OP are people that regularly use Vindi's with dreads. so yea.
Such as? The Law is a point of View |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 11:31:00 -
[589] - Quote
Vindicators, Bhaalgorns, Nightmares, Machariels and Rattlesnakes are all supposed to be OP in their roles. They are ******* pirate faction ships. We're not talking about smooth ass Empire tech, here. We're talking about independent factions that live in lawless ******* space. How the **** do you build one of those ships? Do their blueprints are handed to you in a felt covered briefcase by a lazy ass corp employee wearing a suit? NO! You either have to steal it from those factions by invading their facilities and blowing up their toughest ships or buy it with LP you get by working for them in hostile space. Why the **** would anyone wants do any of the above if the ship they're hunting for is as plain as a Fleet/Navy Issue they can get by simply orbiting a beacon with a frig in lowsec? If the Vindicator web bonus gets nerfed it will be even more similar to the Navy Megathron. Ppl already joke on how the Vindi is easily replaceable by a ship that (before this mess, used to) cost 1/3 of it's price and now the only distinguishable bonus it does have is on the queue to get a nerf? This is wrong. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 12:52:00 -
[590] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kenrailae wrote:[quote=Ueberlisk]Regardless, Question still stands: How often do the people complaining about the vindicator use it? And the few that do, how?. Most of the people i know that are readly adamant about the vindi's bonus being OP are people that regularly use Vindi's with dreads. so yea. Such as?
...
Lots of people in SC? Seeing how they are the ones i talk to the most?
Do i have to list names?
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
87
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 12:54:00 -
[591] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kenrailae wrote:[quote=Ueberlisk]Regardless, Question still stands: How often do the people complaining about the vindicator use it? And the few that do, how?. Most of the people i know that are readly adamant about the vindi's bonus being OP are people that regularly use Vindi's with dreads. so yea. Such as? ... Lots of people in SC? Seeing how they are the ones i talk to the most? Do i have to list names?
Please do.
I'd love to hear what SC has to say about OP vindi's.
The Law is a point of View |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
7643
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 13:08:00 -
[592] - Quote
it all boils down to the fact that:
1. The 90% web bonus is a statistic that not only experienced pilots can use (some frigs/cruisers have it too!) 2. It's only on ships that you pay that little extra isk for 3. Not all people will use it for dreads, and the ones that do, if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
Overall, the 90% web bonus is balanced out by the fact that if you bring some neuts or ECM (Which is overpowered too), those webs won't be working for long! |
Sparkus Volundar
Encapsulated.
77
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 13:33:00 -
[593] - Quote
It also boils down to whether or not a single bonus should lead to the following:
1x90% web: 4-times better than 1x60%. 2x90% web: 9-times better than 2x60%. 3x90% web: 12-times better than 3x60%. 4x90% web: 13-times better than 4x60%.
That doesn't look very Eve-like. . |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
35
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 15:09:00 -
[594] - Quote
Sparkus Volundar wrote:It also boils down to whether or not a single bonus should lead to the following:
1x90% web: 4-times better than 1x60% (and basically the limit in effect that many stacked 60% webs reach). 2x90% web: 9-times better than 2x60%. 3x90% web: 12-times better than 3x60%. 4x90% web: 13-times better than 4x60%.
That doesn't look very Eve-like. 3+ webs on a single target is not very Eve-like. Alas, 1m/s is 13-times better than 13m/s, at 0km only. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 15:27:00 -
[595] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:1. The 90% web bonus is a statistic that not only experienced pilots can use (some frigs/cruisers have it too!) 2. It's only on ships that you pay that little extra isk for 3. Not all people will use it for dreads, and the ones that do, if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
1. And it's been said that it is also too powerful on the small scale as seen with the daredevil, that's why it needs removing from ~all~ ships. However, it's only the people in vindicators that are in here denying the obvious. 2. While having a certain amount of ISK for minor upgrades is a balancing tool (see T2 hulls), you can't justify overpowered ships just because they're expensive. See how that worked out for titans. 3. That's literally not how stacking penalised webs work. You can bring infinite 60% webs and they're not as good as two 90% webs. There are pages and pages trying to explain this... |
Sparkus Volundar
Encapsulated.
77
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 15:31:00 -
[596] - Quote
Nag'o wrote:Sparkus Volundar wrote:It also boils down to whether or not a single bonus should lead to the following:
1x90% web: 4-times better than 1x60% (and basically the limit in effect that many stacked 60% webs reach). 2x90% web: 9-times better than 2x60%. 3x90% web: 12-times better than 3x60%. 4x90% web: 13-times better than 4x60%.
That doesn't look very Eve-like. 3+ webs on a single target is not very Eve-like. Alas, 1m/s is 13-times better than 13m/s at 0km distance only. If you want a real effect difference calculation put this on the turret tracking formula (missile speed effect is capped).
Setting aside the question of whether you're correct about "3+" webs or not, hopefully itGÇÖs clear to you that with 2 webs, the difference is unusually high. If youGÇÖre unable to conceptualise how these speed differences affect things across a range of hulls, turrets and engagement scenarios, the tracking formula will indeed be able to help. . |
Galen Draz
Legion of Fallen Soldiers
5
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 15:58:00 -
[597] - Quote
Drop web + both gun bonuses and replace em with sensor dampening bonus |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
411
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:03:00 -
[598] - Quote
Tawa Suyo wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote:1. The 90% web bonus is a statistic that not only experienced pilots can use (some frigs/cruisers have it too!) 2. It's only on ships that you pay that little extra isk for 3. Not all people will use it for dreads, and the ones that do, if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them. 1. And it's been said that it is also too powerful on the small scale as seen with the daredevil, that's why it needs removing from ~all~ ships. However, it's only the people in vindicators that are in here denying the obvious. 2. While having a certain amount of ISK for minor upgrades is a balancing tool (see T2 hulls), you can't justify overpowered ships just because they're expensive. See how that worked out for titans. 3. That's literally not how stacking penalised webs work. You can bring infinite 60% webs and they're not as good as two 90% webs. There are pages and pages trying to explain this... 1. You clealy aren't playing EVE if you actually believes that the Daredevil is powerfull just because of the web. Infact, it's not really that good against any frigs if it's good frig pilots who are flying those ships against a Daredevil.
2. The problem is that the Vindicator or any of the other Serpentis ships will not be what they are made to do if their web bonus gets removed. Web bonus is just a bonus in the same way as neut or ECM bonuses is. In fact, neuting and ECM'ing is way more powerfull than 90% web is in any situations as both can shut your ship completely down, while the webs just makes your ship slower.
3. The point here is that yes, you will have a problem to bring enough webs to get to the same level of web power as 2-3 Vindicators do. However, the speed will be so low after 6-8 Megathrons or whatever ship that have 60% web power anyways that any ships will hit them no matter what. If a ship is doing 15 m/s or 25 m/s wont matter as you will get blapped no matter what.
That's the whole point, that the speed have gone under a specific number in speed and when it comes under that specific number in speed, it doesn't matter anylonger on how your speed is or how many who are webbing you. Once enough ships have webbed you, it's over for you anyways. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
174
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:11:00 -
[599] - Quote
Tell me how do you benefit the earth? |
dexter xio
TURN LEFT
16
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:11:00 -
[600] - Quote
NightmareX plstop)) Dexter xio - That cool guy |
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