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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1058
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:42:00 -
[631] - Quote
Quote: Really, show your work then.
Here is mine, if a bit messy:
Number of Webs + 1ModifierBase Speed AdjustmentModified Speed AdjustmentBase Speed 1200 KM 010.40.4480 10.8691199810.40.347647992166.871036314 20.5705831440.40.22823325738.085520184 30.2829551540.40.1131820624.310597692 40.105992650.40.042397060.1827566685 50.0299911670.40.0119964670.0021924343 60.0064101830.40.0025640730.0000056216 70.001034920.40.0004139680.0000000023 80.0001262130.45.04851E-050.0000000000
One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.
Um, you appear to have given webs stacking bonuses
The effect is 60% speed reduction. .869 * .6 = 52% speed reduction for the second web, which means the speed of the webbed ship is 48% * 480 = 230.4 ms.
The third web is .57 * 60% = 34.2% speed reduction. .658 * 230.4 ms is 151.6 ms, not 38. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1017
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:53:00 -
[632] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Really, show your work then.
Here is mine, if a bit messy:
Number of Webs + 1ModifierBase Speed AdjustmentModified Speed AdjustmentBase Speed 1200 KM 010.40.4480 10.8691199810.40.347647992166.871036314 20.5705831440.40.22823325738.085520184 30.2829551540.40.1131820624.310597692 40.105992650.40.042397060.1827566685 50.0299911670.40.0119964670.0021924343 60.0064101830.40.0025640730.0000056216 70.001034920.40.0004139680.0000000023 80.0001262130.45.04851E-050.0000000000
One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.
As a first check, without doing any calculations, your calculations are wrong since reducing a positive number X by some fraction of X will never reach 0.
As a second check you can use eft or pyfa. These tools are sometimes wrong, but not for basic things like webbed velocity.
What you did is Base * (1-web factor) * stacking penalty = new velocity. This is the same as new velocity = (base-(base*web factor))*stacking penalty.
How webs actually work is new velocity = base - (base*web factor*stacking penalty). You are stacking penalizing the base velocity. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:55:00 -
[633] - Quote
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1017
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:56:00 -
[634] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?
Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2223
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:57:00 -
[635] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote: Really, show your work then.
Here is mine, if a bit messy:
Number of Webs + 1ModifierBase Speed AdjustmentModified Speed AdjustmentBase Speed 1200 KM 010.40.4480 10.8691199810.40.347647992166.871036314 20.5705831440.40.22823325738.085520184 30.2829551540.40.1131820624.310597692 40.105992650.40.042397060.1827566685 50.0299911670.40.0119964670.0021924343 60.0064101830.40.0025640730.0000056216 70.001034920.40.0004139680.0000000023 80.0001262130.45.04851E-050.0000000000
One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.
Um, you appear to have given webs stacking bonusesThe effect is 60% speed reduction. .869 * .6 = 52% speed reduction for the second web, which means the speed of the webbed ship is 48% * 480 = 230.4 ms. The third web is .57 * 60% = 34.2% speed reduction. .658 * 230.4 ms is 151.6 ms, not 38.
Yep, thought I could simplify my formulas by using the 0.4 directly. Thanks. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:02:00 -
[636] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:05:00 -
[637] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works. EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways.
This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
89
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:06:00 -
[638] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. Also its not a difference between 10 and 20, its a difference between 10% base velocity and <1% base velocity. The difference is much more than 2-fold.
Stop talking. You're sounding as bad as Nightmare. 10/20 m/s is 1 factor in how much damage is taken. 1 factor of many. Stop talking. And Yeah.... there is a point where it doesn't matter if you're being 90% webbed or multiple 60% webbed, you're still dead. Go and show me where on the kill mail you've used a Vindi... and I'll start taking you seriously.
@Naomi:
Within 15k, for applying DPS, nope, Vindi is pretty much the top tier. Kinda how it was designed to be. Such a bad thing that something is doing the job it's supposed to.
Applying sick amounts of cap pressure, Bhaal is as good as it gets, though in certain situations a T3 or geddon might fit a bit better.
Long range, skirmish type warfare, Mach.
Things working as intended don't need nerfed. Eve doesn't need nerfed to drakes online, so stop promoting it.
I can feel my IQ dropping reading some of your posts... so .... yeah. The Law is a point of View |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:07:00 -
[639] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works. EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways. This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot. As long you dont use dreads to shoot those cruisers, everyone else will hit them. So yes, the speed there doesnt matter. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:12:00 -
[640] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight? Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is. A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works. EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways. This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot. As long you dont use dreads to shoot those cruisers, everyone else will hit them. So yes, the speed there doesnt matter.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University
Seriously, give it a try. |
|
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:14:00 -
[641] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University
Seriously, give it a try. If you cant add anything usefull to the discussion, then dont bother to reply with stupid posts.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:16:00 -
[642] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University
Seriously, give it a try. If you cant add anything usefull to the discussion, then dont bother to reply with stupid posts.
I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.
I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:20:00 -
[643] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.
I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education. But you have shown that you dont have enough education to talk about how the Vindicator is and how it works or on how it should work.
Learn how to fly and use the Vindicator and you will see it pretty fast that the ship is pretty balanced and in no way overpowered on what it does compared to what the other pirate battleships are capable of doing. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:24:00 -
[644] - Quote
Using tp's and 8 unbonused webs.
A Moros with two tracking computers and a strong Drop booster will be able to outdps a battleship against a AB cruiser at 35 km
two vindi webs and 2 tps however and the moros will be hitting for 10k at 20 km and is only outdpsed by battleships against targets closer than 7km
Add a couple more vindi webs and it basically gets full application..
90% webs give dreads damage application vs small targets thats unattainable with normal webs, its not even close. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:28:00 -
[645] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Using tp's and 8 unbonused webs.
A Moros with two tracking computers and a strong Drop booster will be able to outdps a battleship against a AB cruiser at 35 km
two vindi webs and 2 tps however and the moros will be hitting for 10k at 20 km and is only outdpsed by battleships against targets closer than 7km
Add a couple more vindi webs and it basically gets full application..
90% webs give dreads damage application vs small targets thats unattainable with normal webs, its not even close. So again, just because of the dreads, some few ships have to lose its bonus? Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:28:00 -
[646] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Within 15k, for applying DPS, nope, Vindi is pretty much the top tier. Kinda how it was designed to be. Such a bad thing that something is doing the job it's supposed to.
But no-one has suggested nerfing the DPS. In fact, we suggested buffing the application via an extra tracking bonus as one of the alternatives to the web bonus...
Oh, and check my corp history, I used to be in SC. Did I imagine the vindis in fleet with me? Not that I'm sure how your "I fly vindicators all the time" line is helping your point. It's almost like you have a vested interested in protecting your favourite toy... Hardly unbiased balance input. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:41:00 -
[647] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Using tp's and 8 unbonused webs.
A Moros with two tracking computers and a strong Drop booster will be able to outdps a battleship against a AB cruiser at 35 km
two vindi webs and 2 tps however and the moros will be hitting for 10k at 20 km and is only outdpsed by battleships against targets closer than 7km
Add a couple more vindi webs and it basically gets full application..
90% webs give dreads damage application vs small targets thats unattainable with normal webs, its not even close. So again, just because of the dreads, some few ships have to lose its bonus?
No, its also dumb that it can easily hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor
|
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
89
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:52:00 -
[648] - Quote
Tawa Suyo wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Within 15k, for applying DPS, nope, Vindi is pretty much the top tier. Kinda how it was designed to be. Such a bad thing that something is doing the job it's supposed to. But no-one has suggested nerfing the DPS. In fact, we suggested buffing the application via an extra tracking bonus as one of the alternatives to the web bonus... Oh, and check my corp history, I used to be in SC. Did I imagine the vindis in fleet with me? Not that I'm sure how your "I fly vindicators all the time" line is helping your point. It's almost like you have a vested interested in protecting your favourite toy... Hardly unbiased balance input.
And I've posted multiple times on how to counter them, but clearly reading is hard.
I think a few members of SC are just sore they lost their vindi's.
Please expand on how SC is the end all authority for exploits? Watch Out PL, new kid on the block.
Gonna say it again, a dread doesn't need a single web to hit a target. It just needs a moment of carelessness. Vindi's just increase the available window.
Risk Free PVP bro's. The Law is a point of View |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 21:58:00 -
[649] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Tawa Suyo wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Within 15k, for applying DPS, nope, Vindi is pretty much the top tier. Kinda how it was designed to be. Such a bad thing that something is doing the job it's supposed to. But no-one has suggested nerfing the DPS. In fact, we suggested buffing the application via an extra tracking bonus as one of the alternatives to the web bonus... Oh, and check my corp history, I used to be in SC. Did I imagine the vindis in fleet with me? Not that I'm sure how your "I fly vindicators all the time" line is helping your point. It's almost like you have a vested interested in protecting your favourite toy... Hardly unbiased balance input. And I've posted multiple times on how to counter them, but clearly reading is hard. I think a few members of SC are just sore they lost their vindi's. Please expand on how SC is the end all authority for exploits? Watch Out PL, new kid on the block. Gonna say it again, a dread doesn't need a single web to hit a target. It just needs a moment of carelessness. Vindi's just increase the available window. Risk Free PVP bro's.
Yes, they increase it from "if you press approach directly on the dread" to "if you heat your afterburner and move with maximal transversal" |
Naomi Anthar
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 22:00:00 -
[650] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?
If not sell your Vindis since you just said that web bonus is useless.
What happend - you just said web bonus is not that good. So yeah we can get rid of it. Noone will care , even you haha. |
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Naomi Anthar
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 22:08:00 -
[651] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.
I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education. But you have shown that you dont have enough education to talk about how the Vindicator is and how it works or on how it should work. Learn how to fly and use the Vindicator and you will see it pretty fast that the ship is pretty balanced and in no way overpowered on what it does compared to what the other pirate battleships are capable of doing.
Now you kinda sealed me as your mortal enemy on those forums.
You are saying, that other pirate ships are as useful and good in PvP, as Vindicator .... Oh no ................ Michael Harari is completly right ... you are on par in game knowledge with fresh noobs on trial accounts.
CCP cut this web bonus. Time is right.
People like you are reason succubus , phantasm and nightmare are in such position - **** PvE tool at best. Because obviously everything is balanced and most balanced are ships you are using. CCP gets such feedback and so they think it's ok.
I fully agree with CCP statement now that this ship lineup is overboard and needs to be in line with others.
So again cut it without mercy. Can't wait for it.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6690
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 22:17:00 -
[652] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Stasis webifier effects do indeed have a stacking penalty. It's actually a good point that we should add a mention of that fact to their descriptions. Don't forget target painters (unless that's already mentioned and I just didn't see it). EDIT: Nevermind, it is. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:22:00 -
[653] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:You are saying, that other pirate ships are as useful and good in PvP, as Vindicator .... Oh no ................ Michael Harari is completly right ... you are on par in game knowledge with fresh noobs on trial accounts.
CCP cut this web bonus. Time is right.
People like you are reason succubus , phantasm and nightmare are in such position - **** PvE tool at best. Because obviously everything is balanced and most balanced are ships you are using. CCP gets such feedback and so they think it's ok.
I fully agree with CCP statement now that this ship lineup is overboard and needs to be in line with others.
So again cut it without mercy. Can't wait for it.
Bottom line is to boost the Nightmare and leave the other ships alone.
But i'm sorry to break your bubble though, but CCP has no plans on changing the Serpentis web bonuses for the seeable future as they have mentioned on Twitter. It was just a brainfart they had.
So i bet you still have to cream your pants everytime you see a Vindicator for a long time . Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:22:00 -
[654] - Quote
I'm still waiting for someone to point a significant difference between the Vindicator and the Navy Megathron other than the web bonus some ppl want removed.
Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:25:00 -
[655] - Quote
Nag'o wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to point a significant difference between the Vindicator and the Navy Megathron other than the web bonus some ppl want removed.
As stated multiple times in the thread, serpentis would have to gain something to compenstate. Nobody has suggested stripping the entire web bonus and leaving it at that. |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:28:00 -
[656] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NightmareX wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Using tp's and 8 unbonused webs.
A Moros with two tracking computers and a strong Drop booster will be able to outdps a battleship against a AB cruiser at 35 km
two vindi webs and 2 tps however and the moros will be hitting for 10k at 20 km and is only outdpsed by battleships against targets closer than 7km
Add a couple more vindi webs and it basically gets full application..
90% webs give dreads damage application vs small targets thats unattainable with normal webs, its not even close. So again, just because of the dreads, some few ships have to lose its bonus? No, its also dumb that it can easily hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor An interceptor pilot who get's close enough to a Vindicator to get webbed is dumb. Also, I think this is the only reason a dev considered this web nerf idea, because ceptors are FOTM.
Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:29:00 -
[657] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Nag'o wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to point a significant difference between the Vindicator and the Navy Megathron other than the web bonus some ppl want removed.
As stated multiple times in the thread, serpentis would have to gain something to compenstate. Nobody has suggested stripping the entire web bonus and leaving it at that. Nobody has suggested the opposite.
Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:32:00 -
[658] - Quote
Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Nag'o wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to point a significant difference between the Vindicator and the Navy Megathron other than the web bonus some ppl want removed.
As stated multiple times in the thread, serpentis would have to gain something to compenstate. Nobody has suggested stripping the entire web bonus and leaving it at that. Nobody has suggested the opposite.
Every single person saying the web bonus should be nerfed has suggested adding another bonus to the serpentis line. |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:35:00 -
[659] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Nag'o wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to point a significant difference between the Vindicator and the Navy Megathron other than the web bonus some ppl want removed.
As stated multiple times in the thread, serpentis would have to gain something to compenstate. Nobody has suggested stripping the entire web bonus and leaving it at that. Nobody has suggested the opposite. Every single person saying the web bonus should be nerfed has suggested adding another bonus to the serpentis line. Please quote a CCP comment on that. I'm not aware of it. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1018
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 23:40:00 -
[660] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3932036#post3932036
Its literally in this very thread, which maybe you should read.
Also in this thread (on the very first page in fact), is Fozzie saying that the dd and vindicator are too strong, and are too strong because of their web bonus. |
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