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Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
191
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You can simply get an alt to light a cyno for you.
Sure.
Your alt lights the escape cyno.
But since you're in e-warp, you cannot jump to it.
The titan is in e-warp.
It cannot do anything.
It cannot stop the e-warp - and fight back.
It cannot light his own cynos to ask for help.
It cannot jump to safe cynos and gtfo.
It cannot fire at the bumper.
It cannot do anything because...
...It's in an e-warp! << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Samurai Pizza Cats
747
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
ZheoTheThird wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:This seems very unfair. Unfair that PL can complain about unfair mechanics that is. HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby. Said a player that doesn't fly anything more expensive than cruisers for plexing.
I didnt make the plex restriction.
Good kill SC!
As for the post above, im not suggesting you jump out, im suggesting you get friends to jump in.
In all seriousness though, the titan was bought with exploited isk and im glad the dude lost it. However yes, being incapacitated by ewarp needs fixing, |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux Phobia.
277
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
pretty sure CCP has called that an exploit and only the greatest of tards would attempt it. GG |
Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
650
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:12:00 -
[64] - Quote
Typical circle jerking and **** posting aside, there is clearly an undefined grey area here in regards to not only emergency warp mechanics but also it's relevancy in specific systems ie null, low sec. As someone who was actually there on comms and in fleet standing by we had no detailed knowledge until cyno up and oh an Erebus.
If anything I see several points that need to be addressed:
1. CCP knows of ewarp issues yet failed to seriously look at them.
2. Logging off in a pos yet not logging back into the pos on log in was mentioned to be a coding issue therefore ewarp is the result and needs to be changed.
3. Rubicon's warp speed changes drastically altered ships vulnerabilities and this is just another jarring example.
I'd also like to see proof from PL or RnK where GM's specifically said "no" when it came to using this method to tackle/bump Supers. If so why not make this knowledge public from CCP? Did they only think people who asked may have known about it? If anything this will force CCP to look at ewarp and pos issues more seriously especially in tandem with Rubicons changes.
Irregardless it was an awesome kill and thanks to everyone who made it happen.
Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org |
Joder
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:13:00 -
[65] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:pretty sure CCP has called that an exploit and only the greatest of tards would attempt it. GG
Think this is a little harsh.
Was a great catch by SC (well done ) weather its an exploit or not!
Now lets get his titan reimbursed so we can lose it all over again |
Mazra Jade
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:19:00 -
[66] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Really, i thought i was coming across as quite smug?
it's cos he's poor |
Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
650
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:19:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sala Cameron wrote:
About half a year ago I've written a petition about the tactics/mechanics used today and if they are considered an exploit. The answer I got was something like "We're investigating this and do not recommend killing ships using this method until further notice. The team reserves the right to classify this as an exploit without prior warning."
So then why withhold this information from the general playerbase? As a CSM is it not your responsibility to communicate these things to the general eve public? Seems shoddy to me at best. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org |
Jassmin Joy
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
220
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Sala Cameron wrote:
About half a year ago I've written a petition about the tactics/mechanics used today and if they are considered an exploit. The answer I got was something like "We're investigating this and do not recommend killing ships using this method until further notice. The team reserves the right to classify this as an exploit without prior warning."
So then why withhold this information from the general playerbase? As a CSM is it not your responsibility to communicate these things to the general eve public? Seems shoddy to me at best. It wasnt Really Withheld persay, Several players done lengthy posts about it including that they were told not to, ROCKETX in particular did a really good one showing exactly how it's done, but i agree that there hasn't been an offiicial ccp response, and considering they knew about it there probably should be. |
Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
650
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jassmin Joy wrote:but i agree that there hasn't been an offiicial ccp response, and considering they knew about it there probably should be.
And therein lies the rub. There's been no official CCP response. Yet from the bellowing and mashing of teeth from Reddit to Eve-Kill of people screaming "Exploit! Exploit!" no doubt there will be one... Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org |
Joder
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 11:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224862
for ppl that cant be bothered to search for Rocket X's thread on it! |
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Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
299
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 12:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Bob FromMarketing wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:while I gotta give them mad props for actually pulling this off, I too find that this is a bit beyond game mechanics
there's a reason why you can't get pointed during the e-warp Grarr didn't rage I'm afraid
~the chillest of chills~ |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
7637
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 12:18:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bob FromMarketing wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Tekitha wrote:I won't go as far as to say this is an exploit (it's within game mechanics after all) however I will say it is clearly broken or not "working as intended" and here is why.
When you log in a titan (or any ship for that matter) it immediately enters emergency warp, every normal method of interrupting this warp simply dos not work, more specifically; a) Ctrl-space, attempting to stop your ship has no effect (this also prevents you from cynoing, activating a cyno module or activating any offensive modules to allow you to fight back) and b) warp disruption modules, in this case focused points from a HIC, have no effect (the module will activate on the target but will not prevent that ship from warping off ... you can test this yourself quite easily). By this reasoning ccp's clear intention is that there should be no way to interrupt these emergency warps, therefore the ability for the ship to be bumped and / or targetted during this e-warp state is clearly flawed. Heres the chain of events as i understand them NoNah is bad, he exploited LP to earn a titan. then he lost his titan because he was bad... Simple as that. Good work Shadow Cartel! I stole close on a trillion isk in supercapitals, should I have no right to claim that mechanics governing them are wrong because you're jealous?
No you didn't :P
|
Lydia vanPersie
Conquering Darkness
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 12:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:I'd also like to see proof from PL or RnK where GM's specifically said "no" when it came to using this method to tackle/bump Supers. If so why not make this knowledge public from CCP? Did they only think people who asked may have known about it? If anything this will force CCP to look at ewarp and pos issues more seriously especially in tandem with Rubicons changes.
While nobody that I know of has gotten in trouble for saying things like "X tactic will get you banned" and "I got Y punishment for doing Z", posting logs of GM communication is not something the GM staff look kindly on. |
Alhana Starrbreeze
Fight Cats Corp Against ALL Authorities
4
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Posted - 2013.11.28 12:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think this is an exploit. And guys should be banned. Also you need to ban guys who bumping the titan with cyno and titans jump in under pos when titan open portal. |
Mail Lite
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 13:56:00 -
[75] - Quote
Alhana Starrbreeze wrote:I think this is an exploit. And guys should be banned. Also you need to ban guys who bumping the titan with cyno and titans jump in under pos when titan open portal.
Anyone else find his last sentence hard to read? Just curious...
Also I agree with a poster on the last page, if someone does get caught like the Erebus last night then he SHOULD be able to cancel warp and fight back (not that this guy could of...) but they should have the chance.
CCP need to change either the Ewarp mechanics so that when you log off in the POS you log back INTO the POS without moving OR they need to confirm that such actions SHOULD be allowed, make it so infini points and bubbles work correctly and the Ewarp is stopped so that the person attacked has the chance to live/fight.
I'm personally for the second. More risk for SC pilots, especially POS living bridge Titans can only be a good thing.
P.S I hope before CCP say one way or the other that PL/DT try and take one of our SC's in revenge or something. That would be hilarious and better than all this stupid forum whining!
Mail |
Kashmyta
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
72
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 14:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
Mail Lite wrote:Alhana Starrbreeze wrote:I think this is an exploit. And guys should be banned. Also you need to ban guys who bumping the titan with cyno and titans jump in under pos when titan open portal. Anyone else find his last sentence hard to read? Just curious... Also I agree with a poster on the last page, if someone does get caught like the Erebus last night then he SHOULD be able to cancel warp and fight back (not that this guy could of...) but they should have the chance. CCP need to change either the Ewarp mechanics so that when you log off in the POS you log back INTO the POS without moving OR they need to confirm that such actions SHOULD be allowed, make it so infini points and bubbles work correctly and the Ewarp is stopped so that the person attacked has the chance to live/fight. I'm personally for the second. More risk for SC pilots, especially POS living bridge Titans can only be a good thing. P.S I hope before CCP say one way or the other that PL/DT try and take one of our SC's in revenge or something. That would be hilarious and better than all this stupid forum whining! Mail
I agree, there needs to be clarification for sure. As for the whining, i'm sure you boys would have questioned our actions if we caught you in the same way. We just need clarification as to whether this is a legitimate tactic.
Would the titan have lived if he could have fought back? no.
However, had the pilot known that e-warp bumping is acceptable method of being tackled i Highly doubt he would have logged in in the first place, given the circumstances and therefore it would have been avoided.
And for the record when the titan went down he was chill as ****, you would have thought it was just a frigate. |
Mail Lite
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 16:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kashmyta wrote:Mail Lite wrote:Alhana Starrbreeze wrote:I think this is an exploit. And guys should be banned. Also you need to ban guys who bumping the titan with cyno and titans jump in under pos when titan open portal. Anyone else find his last sentence hard to read? Just curious... Also I agree with a poster on the last page, if someone does get caught like the Erebus last night then he SHOULD be able to cancel warp and fight back (not that this guy could of...) but they should have the chance. CCP need to change either the Ewarp mechanics so that when you log off in the POS you log back INTO the POS without moving OR they need to confirm that such actions SHOULD be allowed, make it so infini points and bubbles work correctly and the Ewarp is stopped so that the person attacked has the chance to live/fight. I'm personally for the second. More risk for SC pilots, especially POS living bridge Titans can only be a good thing. P.S I hope before CCP say one way or the other that PL/DT try and take one of our SC's in revenge or something. That would be hilarious and better than all this stupid forum whining! Mail I agree, there needs to be clarification for sure. As for the whining, i'm sure you boys would have questioned our actions if we caught you in the same way. We just need clarification as to whether this is a legitimate tactic. Would the titan have lived if he could have fought back? no. However, had the pilot known that e-warp bumping is acceptable method of being tackled i Highly doubt he would have logged in in the first place, given the circumstances and therefore it would have been avoided. And for the record when the titan went down he was chill as ****, you would have thought it was just a frigate.
I didn't mean DT was whining, you guys have been pretty cool about it and I completely agree if you had done it to us we would probably be on the forums doing the same.
Your pilot was pretty awesome about it all tbh and I give him full props for it.
I think we really need CCP to give clarification on this point and find out where we all stand, if it does become acceptable I am expecting a lot more caution when using JB titans in LS. Could make for a great bit of meta gaming tbh.
Lets see where this lands.
Mail |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
367
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 16:18:00 -
[78] - Quote
What I dislike is you can't even fight back, can't even triage or siege, etc. so unless you happen to have friends on hand to save you your stuffed. I don't mind losing a ship but losing it while completely unable to even go out swinging is just very very poor. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1706
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 16:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
More dead titans = better
No exceptions. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Frankinator
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 16:48:00 -
[80] - Quote
Rroff wrote:What I dislike is you can't even fight back. I don't mind losing a ship but losing it while completely unable to even go out swinging is just very very poor. Quoted for the Truth |
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Bob FromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
207
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 17:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: No you didn't :P
Well, we did anyway. |
kahlan650
S.A.S Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 17:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Typical circle jerking and **** posting aside, there is clearly an undefined grey area here in regards to not only emergency warp mechanics but also it's relevancy in specific systems ie null, low sec. As someone who was actually there on comms and in fleet standing by we had no detailed knowledge until cyno up and oh an Erebus.
If anything I see several points that need to be addressed:
1. CCP knows of ewarp issues yet failed to seriously look at them.
2. Logging off in a pos yet not logging back into the pos on log in was mentioned to be a coding issue therefore ewarp is the result and needs to be changed.
3. Rubicon's warp speed changes drastically altered ships vulnerabilities and this is just another jarring example.
I'd also like to see proof from PL or RnK where GM's specifically said "no" when it came to using this method to tackle/bump Supers. If so why not make this knowledge public from CCP? Did they only think people who asked may have known about it? If anything this will force CCP to look at ewarp and pos issues more seriously especially in tandem with Rubicons changes.
Irregardless it was an awesome kill and thanks to everyone who made it happen.
Usually what happens when people start linking petitions is that CCP get upset and start banning people. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
421
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 19:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
Last time i contacted support about possible mechanic exploit, i got response that they cannot "offer explicit answers to hypothetical or potential scenarios which might constitute abuse of the EULA or TOS." And "Please understand that any report of actual abuse must be investigated on a case by case basis."
So to define if it is exploit or not there should be precedent. GJ SC, nice catch. Maybe we'll see some changes in this field any time SOONGäó. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
314
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 19:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
and lets face it, the reply you get can vary a lot. One GM will say, bad puppy. the next will say, its ok.
*shrugs* Yes I am bitter about some GM replies I have got in the past :) I am still mad about that pos tower that vanished in thin air and got told, nothing we can do about it as we couldnt be sure you would have been able to scoop it. |
Euasked
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 19:52:00 -
[85] - Quote
Lets face the obvious here guys.
If this was a legit mechanic, does anyone really believe that Shadow Cartel, of all people, would have been the first to use it?
Please. |
Slepi voznik
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 20:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Euasked wrote:Lets face the obvious here guys.
If this was a legit mechanic, does anyone really believe that Shadow Cartel, of all people, would have been the first to use it?
Please.
Maybe they were the first ones that had balls to try it?
I think that until CCP says that it's an exploit this is a totally legit tactic for killing titans. Either fit inertia stabilizers and MWD or die it is that simple. |
RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 20:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:
So, CCP definitely needs to go through these mechanics and fix them as well as deem this as an exploit. Because if they flat out say it's not, that gives people like PL and PHEW the ability to do this without worrying about a ban at all.
My suggestion would be to do something along the lines of making any Super class hull a "Large Collidable Object" on login, so if anything does land on it to bump it, the super will act similar to POS towers, Stargates, Stations, and won't be affected by the bumps. This should only be limited to the ewarp phase itself, and once it's out of ewarp, that status condition (if you can call it that) should be gone, so the titan acts like it always has when bumps come into account.
Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.
While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.
Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.
SOLUTION: My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.
The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.
Thoughts? -Rock |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 20:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
RoCkEt X wrote:
Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.
While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.
Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.
SOLUTION: My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.
The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.
Thoughts? -Rock
It's a possible solution but one that backtracks from what CCP presumably spent time and money implementing (modifying bubbles to work on ewarp login spots, as per masterplan's post). If CCP want to retain this functionality then the other solution would be to make ewarp cancel upon aggro (and obviously make the focused points work).
MWD and something else (istabs/nomads) works fine for titans to avoid this.
The basic thing CCP need to answer is - are you ok with people taking damage, being killable at login or not. If not - backtrack on masterplan's change and make them invulnerable, if yes then make it so that you can cancel ewarp on aggro. |
Lugia3
Emerald Inc.
658
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 20:59:00 -
[89] - Quote
...
I taught that. |
Frederick Garrish
Brilliant Association of Legendary Life Savers SQUEE.
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 21:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
RoCkEt X wrote:Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:
So, CCP definitely needs to go through these mechanics and fix them as well as deem this as an exploit. Because if they flat out say it's not, that gives people like PL and PHEW the ability to do this without worrying about a ban at all.
My suggestion would be to do something along the lines of making any Super class hull a "Large Collidable Object" on login, so if anything does land on it to bump it, the super will act similar to POS towers, Stargates, Stations, and won't be affected by the bumps. This should only be limited to the ewarp phase itself, and once it's out of ewarp, that status condition (if you can call it that) should be gone, so the titan acts like it always has when bumps come into account.
Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit. While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease. Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship. SOLUTION: My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped. The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely. Thoughts? -Rock
It seems, if you believe what's read here, which I do, as it makes perfect sense, all the other entities that could do this did the responsible thing and contacted CCP first and got varied supplies that basically have one thing in common. "This needs to be investigated, but we will most likely consider it an explot so don't so it," so they don't. I think this is an obvious exploit, but I am glad someone actually did it, as it will lead to changes, which is why I quoted this dude. Think this is a very simple and effective fix, and I think it would be much more well recieved then say making it so you can stop your warp and fight back, but the latter is obviously why I think it's an exploit. |
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