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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5505
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Posted - 2013.11.29 21:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Mr. Striker, for someone who espouses the belief that empathy is one of the Federation's virtues, you notably lack it yourself. What's worse, you seem to mistake our lack of sympathy for a lack of empathy. Oh, you're dearly wrong; empathy is a useful thing to many and indeed any. Sympathy, though, sacrifices the whole for the one-- and that's a tired waste. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs |
Mitchell Striker
Section 06
8
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Posted - 2013.11.29 21:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
And what is your evidence of this lack of empathy Miss Priano? That I oppose the turning of people from individuals into State puppets? That I oppose the wanton destruction of innocents as a "military distraction" in order to achieve objectives for a mad dictator who broke treaties that had endured a century of peace? That I actively encourage aid and charity organisations to cooperate with the Federation, which operates the largest aid efforts of any Empire in the cluster?
There is room for both empathy and sympathy in this world Miss Priano, they are both useful. One allows us to relate and act on that innate understanding of the others plight, the other allows us to act with care even if we don't fully appreciate the circumstance of the other party.
You don't need to have been a slave in order to sympathise with one and help them, I hardly consider that useless Miss Priano. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1355
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Posted - 2013.11.29 21:51:00 -
[63] - Quote
We aren't puppets, neither myself or my co-workers and friends, baseline and Capsuleer. We hope for the day that you can see this clearly.
Monocles notwithstanding :) |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5506
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Posted - 2013.11.29 21:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Empathy is demonstrated through understanding, Striker. You clearly lack it.
Return when you can convince us that you understand, instead of repeating platitudes. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1063
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
So I make an off-the-cuff remark about you coming off like a walking caricature-stereotype and you proceed to confirm the sentiment.
Good, then.
A remark? Miss Gesakaarin, it was a statement of my intent. One that I was forced to correct you on. I'm sorry if you find my acceptance of Federal policy and vision as "stereotypical", but I'm sure you're familiar with the saying "If it's not broke.."
Criticism is encouraged within the Federation, but it is not demanded. That you are unable to tell the difference between one who willingly embraces a particular way of life and the values and ideas commonly attached, and an ideologue, is more reflective of you than me Miss Gesakaarin.
You really didn't get the joke did you? Alright, let me explain it for you. It is common here on the IGS to present ignorant opinions, veiled assertions, aspersion, and emotional projection as tools to portray one side or another as evil or to claim some form of moral high-ground to justify why that other side needs to be destroyed in attempts at propaganda. Now there's nothing wrong with a bit of propaganda, but there's always that rule with propagandists and never believing your own. My flippancy with you at present is because you apparently actually believe what you're saying which is a source of amusement for me, and if you believe that to be a lack of empathy on my part then it probably is because I find it difficult to empathize with an idiot.
Anslo wrote:How bout not turning another thread into a Fed/state pissing match which has jack **** to do with the topic? ******* hell...
I've taken your request under advisement and my response is in the negative. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3560
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
So you'd rather compound the problem and stoop to the level of other narrow minded jingoistic pilots. In which case I have taken your response and wish to reply in the following way: **** you.
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Mitchell Striker
8
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Alright, let me explain it for you. It is common here on the IGS to present ignorant opinions, veiled assertions, aspersion, and emotional projection as tools to portray one side or another as evil or to claim some form of moral high-ground to justify why that other side needs to be destroyed in attempts at propaganda.
I obviously don't share your sense of humour Miss Gesakaarin.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Now there's nothing wrong with a bit of propaganda
What I am stating is not propaganda, but rather facts and beliefs, and I defy you to prove otherwise.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:but there's always that rule with propagandists and never believing your own.
Is that the voice of experience? That would also imply that anyone who forwards what you consider "propoganda" is behaving in a duplicitous manner, or is, as you put it later, an idiot. How very telling.
I simply disagree with both assertions and I am curious what dishonest individual made that "rule".
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:My flippancy with you at present is because you apparently actually believe what you're saying which is a source of amusement for me, and if you believe that to be a lack of empathy on my part then it probably is because I find it difficult to empathize with an idiot.
Your premise is flawed and your conclusion, at best, deflective ad hominem.
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1063
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
Anslo wrote:So you'd rather compound the problem and stoop to the level of other narrow minded jingoistic pilots. In which case I have taken your response and wish to reply in the following way: **** you.
There may have been a day I might have had a care; but it is not this day.
Mitchell Striker wrote:I obviously don't share your sense of humour Miss Gesakaarin.
You're still going on with this, or are you such an autist you are unable to discern I currently give zero fucks what you think? |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 22:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:It's not so much loss of time as it is loss of ones' life, Jinari-haani. Your softclone is not "you" in any appreciable sense of the word. It carries on with the utility function which you had at time of softcloning, but we are more than our utility functions. I for one can't imagine a circumstance in which I would want to commit suicide. Better to endure capture and work for freedom than to give up.
At least, I think that's what Lady Vitalia means.
Of course it's me. I am what's in my head, no more nor less. When my infomorph travels from the pod to a new clone, or between jumpclones it is me. If it's restored from "backups" as it were, it is no less me. Just a less current me. Vastly superior alternative to permadeath, or whatever fate a potential captor would bestow.
Unless of course you claim to have found a way to weigh a soul or some such notion, which in case that was lost the moment I first left my original body for my egger one. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1355
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:40:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Scherezad wrote:It's not so much loss of time as it is loss of ones' life, Jinari-haani. Your softclone is not "you" in any appreciable sense of the word. It carries on with the utility function which you had at time of softcloning, but we are more than our utility functions. I for one can't imagine a circumstance in which I would want to commit suicide. Better to endure capture and work for freedom than to give up.
At least, I think that's what Lady Vitalia means. Of course it's me. I am what's in my head, no more nor less. When my infomorph travels from the pod to a new clone, or between jumpclones it is me. If it's restored from "backups" as it were, it is no less me. Just a less current me. Vastly superior alternative to permadeath, or whatever fate a potential captor would bestow. Unless of course you claim to have found a way to weigh a soul or some such notion, which in case that was lost the moment I first left my original body for my egger one. The decision map which makes up your brain will have changed between the point of softcloning and the present. This creates a non-identity relationship between the maps. I suppose that one might be able to extrapolate the difference between them and bring the softclone up to an identity state once more, but continuity is lost upon a significant change to the original map. So it isn't "you" in any sense that "you" can exist at all, just as you are not a five year old Jinari. You were, but you aren't any more. Does that make sense? |
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Johanes Beaumonte
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
5
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:51:00 -
[71] - Quote
Holy thread derailment! I thought this was about personal weapons and not Calimari politics?
Me? I always carry a large sturdy cigar of the finest tobacco which i can light and use to fend off evildoers if need be. |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
Hahahaah, yeah. I understand what you mean, but "now" me and "then" me are both me. If "now" me cease to exist, "then" me takes over. Of course it'll never reach the same state as the dead one, but given that the dead variant made decisions leading to her death that can be considered a good thing.
You're not you either, once you've read this particular post. You'll have become a new you with new memories and knowledge. Should you then immediately immerse yourself in a sensory deprivation tank to preserve yourself against the ravages of future you? Of course not. Nor do I fear my past self, should she have to take over after I sod something up.
Every single instant may create a whole new me or you, but as long as just one of my clones are active at any given moment, the differences are entirely academic to whichever me is active at the time. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1064
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Posted - 2013.11.30 03:35:00 -
[73] - Quote
As for the topic at hand, my personal weapons include a standard issue corporate commissar pistol, plastic ziplock ties, and a black canvas bag. I combine these weapons with my elite martial arts designed to incapacitate any opponent and render them defenseless on their knees in order to increase the chances of successfully delivering a single round to the back of their head at point blank range. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1223
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 05:55:00 -
[74] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Hahahaah, yeah. I understand what you mean, but "now" me and "then" me are both me. If "now" me cease to exist, "then" me takes over. Of course it'll never reach the same state as the dead one, but given that the dead variant made decisions leading to her death that can be considered a good thing.
You're not you either, once you've read this particular post. You'll have become a new you with new memories and knowledge. Should you then immediately immerse yourself in a sensory deprivation tank to preserve yourself against the ravages of future you? Of course not. Nor do I fear my past self, should she have to take over after I sod something up.
Every single instant may create a whole new me or you, but as long as just one of my clones are active at any given moment, the differences are entirely academic to whichever me is active at the time.
Continuity of consciousness is everything.
Otherwise we are no different than baseliners and their short lives.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2396
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 06:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:And what is your evidence of this lack of empathy Miss Priano? That I oppose the turning of people from individuals into State puppets? That I oppose the wanton destruction of innocents as a "military distraction" in order to achieve objectives for a mad dictator who broke treaties that had endured a century of peace? That I actively encourage aid and charity organisations to cooperate with the Federation, which operates the largest aid efforts of any Empire in the cluster?
There is room for both empathy and sympathy in this world Miss Priano, they are both useful. One allows us to relate and act on that innate understanding of the others plight, the other allows us to act with care even if we don't fully appreciate the circumstance of the other party.
You don't need to have been a slave in order to sympathise with one and help them, I hardly consider that useless Miss Priano.
Okay, since you started in on me, I'll bite.
Your problem is that you are taking a belief and espousing it as a fact. You claim empathy and yet you clearly have little knowledge of or sympathy for those you fight (I'm assuming you put your money where your mouth is and are part of the FDU) .
Even at my most callow I had some sympathy for those who were caught on the ground during our recapture of Home. I understood that there was some merit to the fears of those in the Luminaire system. This sympathy seems to elude you. The propaganda that was fed to you in whatever passed for a Creche in your life may have been sufficient to nurture you in the cradle, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever, can one?
So, leave your talk of slaves and puppets to one side and perhaps we can converse as adults? |
Constantin Baracca
284
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 07:29:00 -
[76] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Mitchell Striker wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
So I make an off-the-cuff remark about you coming off like a walking caricature-stereotype and you proceed to confirm the sentiment.
Good, then.
A remark? Miss Gesakaarin, it was a statement of my intent. One that I was forced to correct you on. I'm sorry if you find my acceptance of Federal policy and vision as "stereotypical", but I'm sure you're familiar with the saying "If it's not broke.."
Criticism is encouraged within the Federation, but it is not demanded. That you are unable to tell the difference between one who willingly embraces a particular way of life and the values and ideas commonly attached, and an ideologue, is more reflective of you than me Miss Gesakaarin. How bout not turning another thread into a Fed/state pissing match which has jack **** to do with the topic? ******* hell...
Eventually all threads, without question, will inevitably turn to racism or nationalism. It's the IGS equivalent of gravity. No matter how far up you try to get the level of conversation, the gravity of inter-imperial bickering will return it to its most common level eventually.
Which is why the Federation must be destroyed, I'm told. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Arkady Vachon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
519
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Posted - 2013.11.30 07:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote: Which is why the Federation must be destroyed, I'm told.
I never can keep track of why the Federation must be destroyed from one week to the next.
One week it's because of our terrible reality shows, the next it's because a favorite holo soap opera character got killed off, and the next its because someone's favorite restaurant made the souffle fall.
Nothing Personal - Just Business...
Chaos Creates Content |
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
36
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Posted - 2013.11.30 08:23:00 -
[78] - Quote
I prefer a good Caldari coilgun or Minmatar pistol to anything fancier. I have extensive training with a saber, but while the skill is honed an the blade is sharp, the opportunities to utilize them are few and far between.
Befitting my job as an intelligence officer, it's much more likely I'd activate the failsafe in me and terminate myself than actually fight or risk the chance of being captured. |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 15:12:00 -
[79] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Continuity of consciousness is everything.
Otherwise we are no different than baseliners and their short lives.
So if you were to go unconscious, you'd be dead? That's all it'd amount to. Going in for a scan, going unconscious, then waking up a while later to learn about some naughty impersonator that's gone and died. As far as the "you" waking up at the clone facility, your consciousness has been continuous all your life, barring any unfortunate but oh so fun evenings with too many chemical stimulants enjoyed.
While it's obviously preferable to never die and having to rise from the dead as a former self, there wouldn't be a baseliner in New Eden capable of comparing itself to the current me, nor a former one. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
642
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 17:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
No, discontinuity happens when the individual reverses to an anterior state at t = t - x.
Which is the basic definition of soft cloning.
It is another form of copying someone at t = 0, where at t = 0 they will be the same individual, and at t + 1 will already be different. |
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 18:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
And when T + 1 disappears and T wakes up, T is still Jinari Otsito. Just not Jinari Otsito + 1. No one's saying you wake up as the person that died. All that's being said is that you just lose some time, no worse than someone experiencing a bit of amnesia, coma or other similar issues. All vastly preferable to permadeath.
Hell, it's a savegame vs continuing at the point where you lose. It's actually surprising how much our lives relate to videogames. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1223
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Posted - 2013.11.30 18:47:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:And when T + 1 disappears and T wakes up, T is still Jinari Otsito. Just not Jinari Otsito + 1. No one's saying you wake up as the person that died. All that's being said is that you just lose some time, no worse than someone experiencing a bit of amnesia, coma or other similar issues. All vastly preferable to permadeath.
Hell, it's a savegame vs continuing at the point where you lose. It's actually surprising how much our lives relate to videogames.
Well perhaps go suicide ouf of pod; this version of Jinari has been plenty tedious in a short amount of time. Sabik now, Sabik forever |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 18:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
A mark of pride, coming from certain people. Besides, do you really want to have this conversation again? Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
644
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Posted - 2013.11.30 19:14:00 -
[84] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:And when T + 1 disappears and T wakes up, T is still Jinari Otsito. Just not Jinari Otsito + 1. No one's saying you wake up as the person that died. All that's being said is that you just lose some time, no worse than someone experiencing a bit of amnesia, coma or other similar issues. All vastly preferable to permadeath.
Hell, it's a savegame vs continuing at the point where you lose. It's actually surprising how much our lives relate to videogames.
The main issue is probably lexical.
It is you as it is still the same identity with a similar memory and informorph pattern.
It is also not you as it is a different stream of consciousness, a stream belonging to someone else. |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 19:49:00 -
[85] - Quote
Of course. Things get interesting though, when that someone else is a you. Frankly, it's more a problem of language and semantics than anything else, I find. Mostly hypothetical too, since I have no intention of dying outside the pod to begin with. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2396
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
Please remember that the softclone is only activated when the Prime you (if any of us can be said to have a Prime given our status as capsuleers) is already dead. It's not like you have to contest your softclone for control of your assets. That version of you is dead.
Given all that, the best alternative is to have some version of your ideals, beliefs and personality go on. |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
255
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 11:14:00 -
[87] - Quote
The Logical response to This sort of Situation is Simple.
A Humanoid Remote Drone, operable via the Capsule Interface, for Personal Interaction whilst on Station or Planetary Surface.
That is, disconnect the Capsule from controlling the Ship, and connect it to Controlling a Humanoid Remote Drone.
Then you could Walk around Station in Person, and then Assassins or other Miscreants would only be Able to Damage your Remote Drone, rather than your Brain.
The Brain is the Most important Part of a Person, and also the most Interesting, It is the Largest erogenous Zone as well.
Creodron, Duvolle, and many Other manufacturers could Construct a Remote operated Humanoid Drone, for Capsuleers to interact with Other People with.
I, Myself, and also my Sister, routinely use Remote Human Biodrones in order to Interact with Human People. It is Safe and Efficient.
This also Relates to the use of Martial Arts - an Assassin or Miscreant would only be able to Damage the Drone, rather than your Person.
Lifelike Humanoid Remote Drones could Also be fitted with a Variety of Additional Functions, including Tools for Interacting with Computer Systems, miscellaneous Scientific Instrumentation, and also a Variety of Weaponry, should the Capsuleer wish to indulge in Personal Combat, regardless of the Station Laws.
Humanoid Remote Drone operation would Allow the capsuleer to also Interact with Human People in station areas that are normally Off Limits to Capsuleers, because of Security Concerns. The Drone would be Expendable, thus the Security Concerns are Nullified. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
622
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Posted - 2013.12.02 05:20:00 -
[88] - Quote
Kaid Hayden wrote: I don't personally carry a weapon, I guess I don't have any enemies to make it feel relevant, although I've been told that my seafood gumbo qualifies. Well, not that I usually carry that around either.
That's a somewhat rosy view of things perhaps. The sad truth is there's a number of baseliners who automatically consider all capsuleers to be enemies just on principle and a number of them may be powerful or at least crazy enough to have a go at a capsuleer.
I don't have any enemies that I know of (I don't rule out the possibility of enemies that have not announced themselves to me be they economic rivals, rival research entities or people that I have been engaged in combat with), and while I try to remain discrete about my status - Aside from the data jacks, I have no other obvious augmentations and when I do bring bodyguards (very rarely) they are almost always plainclothes security who meld into the crowd - but I have still had a number of negative reactions on occasion.
===
I generally have a knife on me at all times for utility, though it's usable in hand to hand in a pinch, so I can always be considered armed after a fashion. As far as firearms go, I have a three shot scrambler derringer concealed on me at all times.
If I am in a bad part of town or feeling paranoid I may bring a proper pistol or even an SMG (depending how paranoid I am feeling). While I am trained in the use of multiple types of firearms and do visit the range from time to time for fire many of the types, rifles and shotguns are a bit unwieldy for everyday carry.
== Edit: Caldari vs Gallente has been done to death in recent months. As far as clones and whether or not they are you, that's a whole different discussion (maybe someone should start a thread for it), but if you really want to get into it, what makes a soft clone not you while a pod clone is? Either way the last you is dead. There's only a very small number of capsuleers in existence that still inhabit their original bodies. |
Yu Tasogare
The TERRA Guardians of Serenity
1
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Posted - 2013.12.02 17:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
To try to stay on topic, I like to carry a scrambler pistol with me when I base line. If I must put myself in a dangerous situation, I have a laser rifle with me as well. of course should all else fail, I make sure to update my soft clone every week because there's no way I'm letting myself feel "permadeath" as others have said. |
Sakuma Ogunuchi
3
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Posted - 2013.12.02 23:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
I've been experimenting with a series of capsuleer specific nano-viruses.
For example, one is tailored to leave small bumps on the genitalia and cost almost as much as a full set of standard +4 implants to cure.
A second, which is still in the experimental phase, is targeted towards low-grade clones and causes a sense of euphoria in the victim while simultaneously inhibiting feelings of empathy or guilt. The test subjects often report feeling as though they were 'awakening for the first time' or 'being truly free.' |
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