Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.02.28 22:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: MOOstradamus I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills
Make up your mind - you're the one who said active skills are already in simply because of the way we train.
So do we already have such things or not? If not, it's fair to discuss why we do or don't like them.
I haven't taken a position either way, except to knock over your shaky analogy.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Tripp Orsam
|
Posted - 2006.02.28 23:40:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Izo Azlion Let us que one skill after the one we're currently training. That would rock. just to be able to que a skill <3
I think skill queing (also offline skill training) may never happen, I'm not saying this is the main reason but CCP seem to be quite proud of breaking thier own 'players online at same time' record and skill queing will reduce the chance of this happening.
On the other hand... I'm clueless when it comes to server hardware etc but I predict that there may be a ceiling to the max players they can have in thier virtual world, once CCP reaches this point they may allow offline skill training and/or skill queing. I know some people think they have reached this ceiling already as they complain about lag alot.
----------------------------- EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Pouah
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 00:46:00 -
[63]
Hehe ,when i made the post i didnt think it would turn like that.
I want to say that by skills i did not think about things like firebolt or summoning. I was thinking more about ½ improved + abilities.
Something logical and nothing that would unbalance the game. I.E. someone could concentrate really hard on the things he sees afar and then gain a +5% targeting range for 5 minutes. Or, he could go crazy and gain a +10% in Rate of fire but -15% acuracy for a minute. Only a few skill like these thatwould only add a little something to the game. I really don't want to see this game turned in an active skill based game like the other mmorpg.
Players could only have 1 or 2 skills at the begining of the game when they choose their bloodlines and stick with them forever. Those skills couldhave a recharge time.
There's nothing really scary [:roll] .
Most of the people who flame this idea only see the possibility that active skills would be like in other mmorpg. Just think about it for a second. Plus, the devs here have proven that they're the best of the mmorpg industry. We should trust them if they want to introduce active skills in the game.
|
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 01:17:00 -
[64]
Well, the opposing viewpoint is this:
since a pilot is inside a pod, controlling the ship through neural hookups, the only influence the pilot has on the performance of his equipment is his knowledge and understanding of it.
The term for that is "skills".
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Asane
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 01:18:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Asane on 01/03/2006 01:18:35 Now I've handled guns. Lot's of guns..
And to be honest it doesn't matter how insanely mad I am, it still has the same RoF
And yes, it would add a little something. Unbalance. And didn't you know already? This is part of my sig.
|
Mag's
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 01:30:00 -
[66]
No thanks.
|
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 01:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Asane Edited by: Asane on 01/03/2006 01:18:35 Now I've handled guns. Lot's of guns..
And to be honest it doesn't matter how insanely mad I am, it still has the same RoF
And yes, it would add a little something. Unbalance.
Don't get too logical. Skill training shouldn't be increasing our RoF or turret tracking, either.
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 03:02:00 -
[68]
You don't think you could track a target more effectively if you're more skilled with the gun? Or that a motivated crew couldn't fire the gun faster?
Talk to anyone who's ever been in an artillery crew or Navy gunnery, I'd bet they disagree.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Beowulf Scheafer
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 05:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Pouah Is CCP planning to implant active skills in the game someday? I'm thinking about skills you have to activate. Something independant of our modules.
I wonder if it would ruin the game and makes it like any other mmorpg or take the complexity and strategy of PvP and PvE to a new level.
What do you think?
i don't like that at all. do u have to pull a button to know how to use a pencil??? so to answer your question in the treat description: me not
|
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 05:43:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan You don't think you could track a target more effectively if you're more skilled with the gun? Or that a motivated crew couldn't fire the gun faster?
Talk to anyone who's ever been in an artillery crew or Navy gunnery, I'd bet they disagree.
Ever fire a machine gun? No matter what your skill level, the rate of fire is a design feature. Pull the trigger and it fires at the same rate for a noob as for a 20 year combat infantry vet. I'm thinking a laser turret would be a similar situation.
Many of our "skills" aren't skills at all, they should be upgrades to our equipment. It's just easier from a game design standpoint to make all these things "skills".
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
|
Thomas Torquemada
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 06:08:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately!
How is this post relevant?
Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE.
Exactly...
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 06:39:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Montague Zooma Ever fire a machine gun? No matter what your skill level, the rate of fire is a design feature. Pull the trigger and it fires at the same rate for a noob as for a 20 year combat infantry vet.
I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun?
Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss.
Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly.
And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Beowulf Scheafer
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 07:56:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Beowulf Scheafer on 01/03/2006 07:56:56 there is a big difference for a noob gunner and a veteran one. the veteran knows one which part is the so called "NATObreak" and has to be removed for an unflexible bolt to increase the rate of fire by 30% ( it is 30% if you upgrade a german mg3 to a mg1. i know it exactly, it was the reason for my first discipline insult...). but then again you mustn't press a button to know that, you must press a button to receive the plans of an old mg1 frim www to know how the part looks you have to create to use i did twice now since this is the third time my sig was deleted. i have no idea why tbh. now whats wrong with it?- beo
|
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 08:02:00 -
[74]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 01/03/2006 08:03:56
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
Originally by: MOOstradamus I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills
Make up your mind - you're the one who said active skills are already in simply because of the way we train.
So do we already have such things or not? If not, it's fair to discuss why we do or don't like them.
I haven't taken a position either way, except to knock over your shaky analogy.
Wow you really are .. er .. well stupid .. if that is how you interpreted anything I've said in this thread. Perhaps all that machine gun fire has affected your ability to comprehend English - I recommend a trip to the doctor
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Ominus Decre
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 08:07:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Pouah Is CCP planning to implant active skills in the game someday? I'm thinking about skills you have to activate. Something independant of our modules.
I wonder if it would ruin the game and makes it like any other mmorpg or take the complexity and strategy of PvP and PvE to a new level.
What do you think?
The game already has "active" features which not only can't be clicked without them the being fitted but if you dont have the appropriate skill nor the juice on your ship you wont be able to use it.
NO!!
I will quite EVE if there are actual skills possed which fill act as a module. I do not want to play WoW.
Anyways, you have something already along that level and it works beautifully!!
|
Blacklight
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 08:09:00 -
[76]
No thanks.
Eve Blacklight Style
|
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 08:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun?
My father was a machine gunner in the battle of the bulge. It's no substitute for field experience, but he's taught me quite a bit about it. I've been shooting a wide variety of firearms since the age of 5 (no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one. A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner.
Quote: Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss.
I'm counting the number of rounds fired per minute (or second or whichever unit of time you prefer). The same that Eve is doing.
Quote: Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly.
Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Firing weapons on a real life range is different than firing guns in Eve. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots.
Quote: And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post.
You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance. Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder.
No, I have never fired field artillery, although I have fired an antique black powder navy line throwing gun. But it doesn't matter, as that experience is not pertinent to this computer game.
Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance?
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
nahtoh
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 10:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Montague Zooma
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun?
My father was a machine gunner in the battle of the bulge. It's no substitute for field experience, but he's taught me quite a bit about it. I've been shooting a wide variety of firearms since the age of 5 (no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one. A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner.
Quote: Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss.
I'm counting the number of rounds fired per minute (or second or whichever unit of time you prefer). The same that Eve is doing.
Quote: Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly.
Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Firing weapons on a real life range is different than firing guns in Eve. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots.
Quote: And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post.
You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance. Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder.
No, I have never fired field artillery, although I have fired an antique black powder navy line throwing gun. But it doesn't matter, as that experience is not pertinent to this computer game.
Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance?
Well not to be picky but you maybe able increase your ROF buy being more intune with the POD interface, increase tracking by making sure your guns arealways pointing at the target ship (kinda like Infrantry being trained to always look where the rifle is pointing).
Skills like this are hard to explain or quantify but could just be a way to explain experiance accured due to doing it, yeah I know it breaks down when you bring in the fact that until you train the skill no matter how much you do it its does not get better. But its a inperfect world ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Argael
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 10:36:00 -
[79]
i mean no offense but i think thah the author of this tread dont really understand eve mechanics
all skills are active .... when you use the proper module or ship.
|
Sphalerite
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 11:01:00 -
[80]
train skill -> press button -> gain temporary advantage + drawback
EVE has this covered pretty well in ways that fit with the backstory and style of the game. This proposal offers nothing that modules and boosters don't.
"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall" |
|
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 17:24:00 -
[81]
Quote: Skills like this are hard to explain or quantify but could just be a way to explain experiance accured due to doing it, yeah I know it breaks down when you bring in the fact that until you train the skill no matter how much you do it its does not get better. But its a inperfect world
Well, yes, this gets back to my real point, which is that you don't want to examine (or apply logic to) this game too closely. Things will fall apart. Forget the nitpicking over rate of fire and look at something we all agree on...the physics model in this game is not accurate. Our ships act more like boats in water rather than vessels in space. It doesn't pay to examine that too closely...that's just how the game is played.
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 17:30:00 -
[82]
I wouldn't mind a little memory game for researchers to sit and do in their stations in order to obtain useful data so yes, in a way but none of the clickety clickah ritalin stuff.
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
000Hunter000
|
Posted - 2006.03.01 17:38:00 -
[83]
but we allready have active skills... I don't understand all this fuss.
All the skills u have that benefit weapons and ships are activated as soon as u enter space or activate the specific module/weapon.
Now if u want skills that do something without the need of a ship/mod/weapon now that would be just silly... 'OMG I CAN NOS SOMEONE JUST BY LOOKING AT THEM!!!111ONE!!!' Now that would suck the big one.
|
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 04:38:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Montague Zooma no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one.
We are not talking about machine guns. We are talking about crew served weapons, and a field gun's rate of fire is dependent upon the skill of the crew.
FFS, stop sticking to your inapplicable analogy and go ask someone who's worked on a gun crew!
Quote: A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner.
Better gunners load faster, lay on the target faster, and meet the basic standard of accuracy in less time. If you mean to tell me that an inexperienced loader will make a tnak gun fire just as quickly as a good one, we can go right ahead and dismiss everything else you have to say as useless.
Quote: Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots.
OK, to put it simply, skills in EVE don't improve a weapon's accuracy. That's because weapons have a fixed chance to hit within their optimal range, within falloff range, etc.
Let's say, for purposes of simplicity, that a weapon has a 50% chance to hit a target within its optimal range. A green crew takes more time to track the target and is less likely to meet that standard of accuracy, while a skilled crew can load faster, track faster, and hit more often.
Quote: You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance.
So, my analogy of comparing naval ordnance to naval ordnance is somehow less approriate than your attempts to compare them to machine guns? My GOD, man - do you know how hard it is not to flame you right now?
Quote: Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder.
Shouldn't be too hard, since you're trying to convince me that a ship-mounted 125mm cannon (NEWS FLASH: We have that technology NOW) behaves the same way as a machine gun!
Quote: Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance?
I'm expecting naval ordnance to behave like naval ordnance - you're expecting it to behave like man-portable weapons.
Please, give it up before you get further behind. You're only opening yourself up to ridicule.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 06:31:00 -
[85]
Quote: FFS, stop sticking to your inapplicable analogy and go ask someone who's worked on a gun crew!
Certainly. Where do I find someone who has worked on a pod pilot ship's gun crew?
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 06:37:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 02/03/2006 06:37:13
Originally by: Montague Zooma [Certainly. Where do I find someone who has worked on a pod pilot ship's gun crew?
OK, you really ARE a moron.
I'm trying to say that there's no difference between modern naval ordnance and EVE naval ordnance. Did you miss the 125mm gun reference? They have them in EVe and guess what? We have them now! They are called "five inch guns"!
Don't even try to tell me that real-world comparisons are inapplicable, Mister Machinegun.
Get your head out of your posterior cavity, you're really making a fool of yourself.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Montague Zooma
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 08:01:00 -
[87]
Quote: OK, you really ARE a moron.
I'm trying to say that there's no difference between modern naval ordnance and EVE naval ordnance. Did you miss the 125mm gun reference? They have them in EVe and guess what? We have them now! They are called "five inch guns"!
Don't even try to tell me that real-world comparisons are inapplicable, Mister Machinegun.
Get your head out of your posterior cavity, you're really making a fool of yourself.
Riiiiight. Sure, we have Eve technology in place today. Whatever you say man. I sure am glad you set me straight on that, 'cause I don't want to be a fool.
Yes, the skill of a real life Navy gun crew makes a big difference. I never said it didn't. I also haven't confused my imaginary pod pilot with a real life Navy crew. I imagine my Eve ship has automated systems firing the laser guns. My pod pilot is plugged into those systems. You're imagining your ship has a US Navy gun crew firing 21st century five inch guns. Maybe your pod pilot issues orders to the crew over an intercom. That's fine. No matter how we picture it, it all plays the same.
Eve is a statistical game. I'm looking at the stats. Rate of fire is listed for each weapon and I view that as its design specification. I mentioned a machinegun's rate of fire as a simple illustration of what I meant.
The point I was originally making...and will restate it again...is that the game doesn't bear up very well under close examination. The skill training system is nice, but doesn't make a lot of sense...seems like skills should improve with practice but they don't. Our space ships behave more like boats in water rather than spacecraft. Some things we just have to overlook. That's all I was trying to say before you got all fixated on whether I've ever fired a machinegun.
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 18:31:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 02/03/2006 18:36:19
Originally by: Montague Zooma Sure, we have Eve technology in place today. Whatever you say man.
Look, are you dense? EVE has 125mm naval guns - we have 125mm naval guns today. Everything doesn't necessarily have to be different just because it's the future.
Quote: I imagine my Eve ship has automated systems firing the laser guns. The real life situation you describe is not like what I'm imagining it to be like for our pod pilots.
You imagine that a naval cannon works anything at all like a machine gun, so let's be thankful that your imagination doesn't determine how the game works. Ships have crews - it's been referred to in the official fiction:
http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/14-07-05.asp
Quote: Four months later, Daren Athaksis was confirmed as one of six-thousand three-hundred and fourteen reported casualties resulting from the destruction of the Apocalypse-class battleship "Dam-Imud."
Now, I'm certain that those 6,314 crewmen aren't just there to swab the decks and polish the hull. Do you think they might be... manning the guns?
Quote: Our space ships behave more like boats in water rather than spacecraft.
Yet, you stubbornly refuse to accept that the guns might likewise work in a similar fashion...
Quote: I'm sure you're not arguing that real life gun crews plug in skills the same way a pod pilot does.
no, they learn them the hard way - through experience - but that doesnt change the fact that how you learn a skill is immaterial to how you perform it.
Again, a naval gun or field artillery piece's rate of fire is dependent upon the skill of the crew. To address your original point, that is why skills increase the rate of fire on a gun. Accept it or don't, it's a real-life fact.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
Gray Carmicheal
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 19:27:00 -
[89]
I'll take it if it's implemented, but only if I can don bright purple guns, add some blood red spikes, and shoot out glitter-trailed missles while in Aspect of the 1337.
/Sarcasm_off.
My sig was CONCORDOKKENED. I blame Wrangler H4x. |
Corunna ElMan
|
Posted - 2006.03.02 20:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Montague Zooma True, it doesn't have to be different. That's my bias showing...I expect continued technological improvements. Did you use a musket when you were in the service?
Do you think a knife works any different than it did 3,000 years ago? Things don't always need to continually advance, if they serve the intended purpose as is.
Quote: I've seen players argue for endless pages about whether our pod ships have crews and have no desire to reignite that.
You don't need to - it's referred to in the official fiction. I don't care whether or not you disagree.
Quote: Let's say the RoF of all Eve weaponry is not a function of design, but of the skill of the gun crews. That's fine...except that it doesn't show up in the game. The pod pilot can improve his R0F skill...but the gun crews have no impact.
Who do you think is directing the gun crew? Do you even have the faintest idea what I'm getting at? The pilot is issuing orders to the crew, directing them, and motivating them. An unskilled captain won't get the best out of his crew - and that's been a fact that hasn't changed since man first set sail.
You asked me how pilot skill could possibly improve RoF of the guns, and I've answered. If you won't accept any rationalization that doesn't fit your imagined way the EVE Universe works, then don't bother asking the question. We can't read your mind and we're not obligated to agree with the way you "think" EVE works anyhow.
I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions? |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |