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Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
30
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Posted - 2013.11.28 19:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Foreword
Recently one russian player has started some threads in several eve-related forums, including this one and the biggest russian community forum eve-ru.com. It was quite a common whine thread about Rorqual's (in)ability to fly and mine in hisec. At first glance, there was nothig unusual - another noob, another obvious mistakes and wrong assumtions and another request to reimburse SP and isks spent. But some people (not me, to be honest) took a closer look at the problem and they found a flaw in user experience. And I can say that it can be considered a major flaw.
So, what is broken?
Ever heard of weapon hardpoints? And where did you hear about them? I bet, you learned about their existence from the frustrating message that you cannot fit a mining laser to a drake (or that was bantam?). Anyway -There is NO information about weapon hardpoints ingame. The only mention of weapon hardpoints is located in ship fitting window, and even there its location is not obvious. To learn about hardpoints you have to read carefully a tutorial and then click on a link. And how do you know where does the right link located? To dig evelopedia or other forums or use any other source of information, you have to state a right question, and this is impossible, because you have no idea what to ask. All this can lead a new player to a frustration. While I (and many others too, I beleive) deeply appreciate the efforts of developers used to produce tons of drama from noobs, this situation is not good at all for many players, both new and old.
And how to fix it?
- Add the information about the type of hardpoint used by every high-slot module to Show info window of that module.
- Add the information about available weapon hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window of every ship ingame.
- Add the tutorial about different hardpoints type (missile, turret or utility)
- Fix or update flavour text used in Show info window to reflect the (in)ability of a given ship to fit certain modules in its high slots.
- Of course, some consistency must be present: a Miner I is a turret, but a Strip Miner I is (surprise!) an utility.
Anything else?
Yes, please. Some unobvious things also should be made more clear (even if they are not quite suited for new players): Add a tutorial about ship sizes - let newbie see (not board) all racial ships, including capitals (I think the supercaps can be omitted here, to preserve some mystery) and do a briefing on every shipsize, describing all their strengths and flaws (such as multitude of EHP and the inability to get to a hisec systems of capitals, or high warpspeed and fragile hulls of frigates, etc). Add some way to learn about jumpdrives ingame - not from chronicles or evelopedia. [*] And please, make evelopedia available in languages other than english. |
Mylena Rolsen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
That was trolling. |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
37
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Even if those threads were sort of trolling, the problem still exists AND should be fixed |
Mylena Rolsen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
There is no problem. |
Unro Arthie
BLADERUNNER.
92
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Posted - 2013.11.29 00:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:
Add the information about available weapon hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window of every ship ingame.
Already there. Open your eyes |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
42
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Posted - 2013.11.29 05:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Unro Arthie wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:
Add the information about available weapon hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window of every ship ingame. Already there. Open your eyes
A good point. I highlited the keyword. There is some info if there's any hardpoint present. And if there's no hardpoints at all? For example, a Hulk has no hardpoints. This is the case, when redundant information helps a lot.
Even if you say that redundancy is not good, I can re-phrase my suggestion to [*] Add the information about utility hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window to all ships with no weapon hardpoints. (or somethig like that) |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1987
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Posted - 2013.11.29 05:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Unro Arthie wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:
Add the information about available weapon hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window of every ship ingame. Already there. Open your eyes A good point. I highlited the keyword. There is some info if there's any hardpoint present. And if there's no hardpoints at all? For example, a Hulk has no hardpoints. This is the case, when redundant information helps a lot. Even if you say that redundancy is not good, I can re-phrase my suggestion to Add the information about utility hardpoints to fitting tab in Show info window to all ships with no weapon hardpoints. (or somethig like that) I don't understand the problem. The show info window already shows the number of high slots and the number of turrets/launchers available on a ship. Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
43
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard? |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
578
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Yes, please. Some unobvious things also should be made more clear (even if they are not quite suited for new players):
Add a tutorial about ship sizes - let newbie see (not board) all racial ships, including capitals (I think the supercaps can be omitted here, to preserve some mystery) and do a briefing on every shipsize, describing all their strengths and flaws (such as multitude of EHP and the inability to get to a hisec systems of capitals, or high warpspeed and fragile hulls of frigates, etc). Well, I'd actually support that. It can be done easy way - through ISIS, or more fun way...
I think I can remember that basic tutorial ends with mission where you have to warp to some outpost to recieve certificate (or something something; I didn't know a thing about EVE back then and therefore my memories aren't exactly well structured). The thing is, you could see almost every racial ship in that pocket parked nearby. So maybe add some features to recieve some general info on them there (something newb-oriented instead of what you can get already by checking out "info")? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1988
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard?
Obviously not. A gas cloud harvester requires a turret hardpoint, of which the Bustard has none. Showing info on the Bustard reveals the fact that is has no turret hardpoints, and this is also indicated in the fitting window, as well.
Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
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Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
43
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard? Obviously not. A gas cloud harvester requires a turret hardpoint, of which the Bustard has none. Showing info on the Bustard reveals the fact that is has no turret hardpoints, and this is also indicated in the fitting window, as well.
Where did you learn that Gas Cloud Harvester I is a turret? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1988
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard? Obviously not. A gas cloud harvester requires a turret hardpoint, of which the Bustard has none. Showing info on the Bustard reveals the fact that is has no turret hardpoints, and this is also indicated in the fitting window, as well. Where did you learn that Gas Cloud Harvester I is a turret?
In the new player tutorial dealing with mining. Where did you? Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
43
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard? Obviously not. A gas cloud harvester requires a turret hardpoint, of which the Bustard has none. Showing info on the Bustard reveals the fact that is has no turret hardpoints, and this is also indicated in the fitting window, as well. Where did you learn that Gas Cloud Harvester I is a turret? In the new player tutorial dealing with mining. Where did you?
And it will be really easy for you to tell me where does this tutorial located, right? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1990
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:OK. Can you fit a Gas Cloud Harvester I to a Bustard? Obviously not. A gas cloud harvester requires a turret hardpoint, of which the Bustard has none. Showing info on the Bustard reveals the fact that is has no turret hardpoints, and this is also indicated in the fitting window, as well. Where did you learn that Gas Cloud Harvester I is a turret? In the new player tutorial dealing with mining. Where did you? And it will be really easy for you to tell me where does this tutorial located, right?
You get a whole slew of them when you log in a new character, until you complete them or turn them off. Aura goes on and on at length, sending you to do this, that, and the other thing. If you skipped them, that's your own fault. Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
43
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Posted - 2013.11.29 06:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just in case you didn't know - all tutorials are available through F12 key to any character at any time. And there is no tutorial mentioning hardpoints. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1990
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Posted - 2013.11.29 07:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Just in case you didn't know - all tutorials are available through F12 key to any character at any time. And there is no tutorial mentioning hardpoints.
I'm sorry that you find yourself unable to pay attention in class. Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Delarian Rox
CYBER SMERCH
12
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Posted - 2013.11.29 07:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thats valid point anyway. Yes it sounds stupid but it isn't. If we need specific hardpoint to fit module it should be listed in requirement section, just because we can't be sure that every client translation is 100% valid and maybe all requirements (skills, grid, cpu, hardpoints and so on) should be in one tab.
Something like this:
- Miner I -- Requirements ---- Skills ------- Mining I ---- Fitting ------- CPU ------- Power Grid ------- Hardpoints ------- Shiptype ------- Whatever |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
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Posted - 2013.11.29 07:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Rorqual's (in)ability to fly and mine in hisec.
Rorqual: - Capital ship - Isn't mining ship
That alone should tell you that: - Rorqual can't enter hisec - You can't fit mining lasers or strip miners to Rorqual |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
2067
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Posted - 2013.11.29 08:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
I agree that simply adding "Requires hardpoint: Turret" to showinfo of stuff wouldn't hurt anyone, and would be of some benefit to new players. The rest is either already implemented or ranting about stuff the OP doesn't understand. |
Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
47
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Posted - 2013.11.29 10:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:Rorqual's (in)ability to fly and mine in hisec. Rorqual: - Capital ship Isn't mining ship That alone should tell you that: - Rorqual can't enter hisec - You can't fit mining lasers or strip miners to Rorqual Not a valid argument at all: 1. A freighter is a capital, but can enter hisec. 2. A JF or a BO have a jumdrive onboard, but can enter hisec at will. 3. There's quite a number of carriers and dreds in hisec. 4. The above arguments show, that the real reason a true capital cannot enter hisec is in the use of cynosural navigation. Note, that I do not suggest a direct indication that capitals cannot use stargates (because this will totally eliminate idiots warping to a hisec gate in its carrier), but offer a direction to study jumpdrive mechanics (idiot still must have his chances). 5. Rorqual can mine. Using drones of course. 6. A rorqual and orca are mining ships after all, though very specialized ones.
Abdiel Kavash wrote:I agree that simply adding "Requires hardpoint: Turret" to showinfo of stuff wouldn't hurt anyone, and would be of some benefit to new players. The rest is either already implemented or ranting about stuff the OP doesn't understand.
Thanks for support, but what exactly I do not understand in your opinion?
2 Domanique Altares: Can you show here a screenshot with the tutorial mentioning any hardpoints? If you show me exactly a tutorial that states that gas harvester is a turret, I will reward you with 50 mil isks.
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Jake Sake
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
17
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Posted - 2013.11.29 10:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Foreword... At first glance, there was nothig unusual - another noob, another obvious mistakes and wrong assumptions and another request to reimburse SP and isks spent....
Well now... isn't that a deja vu? At first glance OP is just another noob with stupid mistakes... And lol at those who bash him in their replies, you didn't pay attention at all to the thread :) I'm trying to remember how I was wondering why mining laser is installed on turret hardpoint though it's not a weapon. |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2013.11.29 10:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
There should be a newbie mission.
It should go like:
Hey Bud, I gave you this kestrel - now go, buy a turret and fit it to it.
Once the noob tries, there should be a pop-up saying: You see what I did there? The Kestrel doesn't have turret hardpoints - you can only fit launchers! Now go and buy some launchers!
That would be sweet. Noone would ever forget what hardpoints are for. |
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
43
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Posted - 2013.11.29 12:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:Just in case you didn't know - all tutorials are available through F12 key to any character at any time. And there is no tutorial mentioning hardpoints. I'm sorry that you find yourself unable to pay attention in class.
So you are unable to just screenshot the hardpoints being mentioned in the tutorial, yes? |
Matthew97
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
230
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Kristie Ling wrote:Rorqual's (in)ability to fly and mine in hisec. Rorqual: - Capital ship Isn't mining ship That alone should tell you that: - Rorqual can't enter hisec - You can't fit mining lasers or strip miners to Rorqual Not a valid argument at all: 1. A freighter is a capital, but can enter hisec. 2. A JF or a BO have a jumdrive onboard, but can enter hisec at will. 3. There's quite a number of carriers and dreds in hisec. 4. The above arguments show, that the real reason a true capital cannot enter hisec is in the use of cynosural navigation. Note, that I do not suggest a direct indication that capitals cannot use stargates (because this will totally eliminate idiots warping to a hisec gate in its carrier), but offer a direction to study jumpdrive mechanics (idiot still must have his chances). 5. Rorqual can mine. Using drones of course. 6. A rorqual and orca are mining ships after all, though very specialized ones.
1. Maybe that's because they can't shoot anything? 2. So? They can only jump out to low and not back into high. 3. Maybe you should look at why they're there and all the restrictions that are imposed on them. 4. Capitals cannot use stargates anyway. 5. So can a titan 6. If you want to pick hairs, they're not mining ships, they're industrial command ships
=====
In response to the main "issue" in the OP:
There is no issue, everything is documented and if you can't be bothered to read tutorials / ask questions etc, don't expect the information to be thrown at you. If you want a game that will hold your hand all the time, I suggest Hello Kitty Online or maybe World of Warcraft. Run level 4 missions? Don't want to salvage? Let us salvage for you, and then pay you for it! -áJoin our Channel: Pro Synergy
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Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
29
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Matthew97 wrote: There is no issue, everything is documented
no its not. if there is a restriction on an item it should be noted on this item. many items have text in their description or in their atributes if they have any shipclass- or other restriction
Good ones: "Bomb Launchers can only be equipped by Stealth Bombers and each bomber can only equip one bomb launcher." "Note: can only be fitted on Black Ops, Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers and Force Recon Ships, as well as Strategic Cruisers equipped with Covert Reconfiguration Subsystems" "Note: this tractor beam can only be fitted on the Rorqual ORE Capital Ship" "Note: A siege module requires Strontium clathrates to run and operate effectively. Only one siege module can fitted to a dreadnought class ship. The amount of shield boosting gained from the Siege Module is subject to a stacking penalty when used with other similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship." "Can be fitted toAstero Blockade Runner Covert Ops Etana Force Recon Ship Stealth Bomber Strategic Cruiser Stratios Stratios Emergency Responder"
Medium one (it doesnt say in can only fitted to these ships but it hints everyone to ask the community) "A bulk ore extractor designed for use on Mining Barges and Exhumers." "A unit used to extract valuable materials from ice asteroids. Used on Mining barges and Exhumers."
Bad ones: "Basic mining laser. Extracts common ore quickly, but has difficulty with the more rare types." "The core technology employed by Gas Harvesters dates back centuries, to a time when the extraction of material in space was still a growing industry. Originally, asteroid miners had seen the tractor beams and in-space catalytic conversions used by today's Gas Harvesters as a promising new method for extracting spacebound ore. After many unsuccessful research projects and years of fruitless experiments however, the industry decided to return its focus to laser technology, which was eventually mastered to a level that has sustained the mining profession to this day.
When the first interstellar Gas Clouds were discovered, they proved particularly challenging for industrialists to extract raw materials from. Many methods were tried, and although successful acquisition was always guaranteed, there was a need for much greater efficiency. It was not until the mining industry returned to long-abandoned projects that a solution was found. Since that time, Gas harvesting technology has slowly moved forward, giving birth to new industries and economies in the process. "
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Kristie Ling
Aksart Inc.
60
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Posted - 2013.11.29 19:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Matthew97 wrote: In response to the main "issue" in the OP:
There is no issue, everything is documented and if you can't be bothered to read tutorials / ask questions etc, don't expect the information to be thrown at you. If you want a game that will hold your hand all the time, I suggest Hello Kitty Online or maybe World of Warcraft.
While I believe, that every Eve player has read all tutorials, and studies Eve lore, wiki and a number of related forums every day, the reality (and the killboards) proves my belief is wrong every hour. Can you remember, how did you learn about hardpoints? Do not say that all info is in the tutorial - it would be an obvious lie. The ideal case would be a click on a link in the end of a tutorial "Would you like to know more about fitting?" which opens an IGB with an Evelopedia page. But more likely, you wondered why can't you fit four guns to the Rifter (at best). It was great if you googled the right thing and read everything about hardpoints, calibration, cpu and pg enhancing etc... Let's go back to reality - you have probably posted a really dumb question on a forum or dropped some lines in chats, only to be laughed at and be shown a fitting guide. No offense here - not a single day lacks these questions in game chats or forums. And the most ironic thing is that you cannot simply say "It's all in the tutorials!" - there's no such tutorial.
In sumary, just for the sake of consistency of Aura's tutorials, the tale of hardpoints should be added. Also, while info on hardpoints of the ship can be considered redundant, the info of hardpoints' type used by a highslot module is critical.
Now, a little offtopic here and some friendly trolling (fun only and no offense intended). Let's see why you are missing my point entirely (and you cannot into logic too, so this makes your note about hello kitty online very funny):
Matthew97 wrote: 1. Maybe that's because they can't shoot anything? 2. So? They can only jump out to low and not back into high. 3. Maybe you should look at why they're there and all the restrictions that are imposed on them. 4. Capitals cannot use stargates anyway. 5. So can a titan 6. If you want to pick hairs, they're not mining ships, they're industrial command ships
1. Maybe. Or maybe not - there's absolutely no ingame information about the reason of this. My point was that if a ship is a Capital, this does not prevent that ship from staying in hisec. 2. Your statement is not correct enough. One can think that these ships can only travel only in one direction, which is not true. So, maybe the reason of capital's inability of hisec travelling is in the jumpdrive? That seems close, but a JF or BO both have jumpdrive and both can travel in hisec. Anyway, no obvious information ingame on this matter. 3. This is just a proof that first two entries are wrong reasons of capital's inability to stay in hisec - any capital ship can stay in hisec (in theory at least). BTW, all that capitals can do is mining - but that does not make them mining ships, right? Suddenly the idea of a mining rorqual in hisec seems not that absurd. 4. Again, show me where it is written (preferably ingame, not on some dubious forum). 5. I assume you didn't want to say that titan can mine with drones, right? You just wanted to say that a titan will outmine a rorqual, yes? That's for sure - except for Leviathan, as it is totally useless in mining. 6. Let's read rorqual's description:
Quote:The Rorqual was conceived and designed by Outer Ring Excavations in response to a growing need for capital industry platforms with the ability to support and sustain large-scale mining operations in uninhabited areas of space.
To that end, the Rorqual's primary strength lies in its ability to grind raw ores into particles of smaller size than possible before, while still maintaining their distinctive molecular structure. This means the vessel is able to carry vast amounts of ore in compressed form.
Additionally, the Rorqual is able to fit a capital tractor beam unit, capable of pulling in cargo containers from far greater distances and at far greater speeds than smaller beams can. It also possesses a sizeable drone bay, jump drive capability and the capacity to fit a clone vat bay. This combination of elements makes the Rorqual the ideal nexus to build deep space mining operations around.
As you can see from the description, each paragraph contains the reference to mining, grinding and other ore related stuff. There's absolutely nothing that shows that Rorqual is NOT a mining ship. In fact, a newbie can (and will) think, that the giant Rorqual IS the best mining ship (and I have a solid proof of that )
BTW, the descriptions of the ships are another good point for fixes - half of them are just some scraps of lore, the other half are good descriptions of ship roles and the third half are a of mixture of both lore and role. |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
88
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Posted - 2013.12.02 18:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kristie Ling wrote:As you can see from the description, each paragraph contains the reference to mining, grinding and other ore related stuff. There's absolutely nothing that shows that Rorqual is NOT a mining ship. In fact, a newbie can (and will) think, that the giant Rorqual IS the best mining ship (and I have a solid proof of that )
Not that I want to disagree with you too much, but infact:
The Rorqual does say that it's not a mining ship. The skill-bonus reflects this, as it says "Capital Industrial Ship", and not "Capital Mining Ship" - it doesn't say "Capital Mining Barge" or "Capital Exhumer" either.
Industrial ships = Haulers, like the badger. If one would make false assumptions, he must assume that this is just a capital hauler. ;)
Also, if a noob is unable to read the freaking skill-bonuses, there is no way Aura could help him in any way. All mining ships have bonuses towards mining lasers - the rorq does not. It has bonuses towards drones, and mining links - yup, but seriously - if you can't figure that out, you are likely to die because you forgot to breathe anyway.
Oh, and beeing able to find a noob dumb enough doesn't proof anything. You know - make something idiot-proof and someone will invent a better idiot.
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